Politics: Bush commutes Libby's prison term

[aurik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pe ... _president

And what claim exactly are you supporting there?

[Keno]

Bush has pardoned or commuted less than half the amount of people that Clinton did.

[aurik]

Bush has pardoned or commuted less than half the amount of people that Clinton did.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

[Keno]

Bush has pardoned or commuted less than half the amount of people that Clinton did.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

I'm sorry, that came out of left field; what the fuck are you talking about?

[aurik]

Bush has pardoned or commuted less than half the amount of people that Clinton did.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

I'm sorry, that came out of left field; what the fuck are you talking about?

I'm asking you what relevance your cited fact has to the current discussion. Nobody here is opining that the president pardons too much or too little. So what relevance does the fact that "Bush pardons less than Clinton" have to do with the discussion at hand?

[skurlover]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pe ... _president

And what claim exactly are you supporting there?

No, actually, that number should be 100% since this was implemented, it is a given that is going to happen in the last year of a presidency. I laugh at the fact everyone is so bent out of shape that GWB is doing it, but Clinton was one of the biggest offenders of this "peak".

[aurik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pe ... _president

And what claim exactly are you supporting there?

No, actually, that number should be 100% since this was implemented, it is a given that is going to happen in the last year of a presidency. I laugh at the fact everyone is so bent out of shape that GWB is doing it, but Clinton was one of the biggest offenders of this "peak".

Except that list fails to support your assertion (both of 100% and 40 of 43) in several ways. Here are a few reasons why it fails:
1) it only lists a few presidents. Nowhere near 40.
2) it doesn't list which people were pardoned "expressly to protect executive branch members who were convicted of obstructing investigations into possibly impeachable offenses in the executive branch"--it's simply a laundry list of notable people pardoned.

So you haven't backed up your claim that virtually every president does this.

[Fuuko]

Except that list fails to support your assertion (both of 100% and 40 of 43) in several ways. Here are a few reasons why it fails:
1) it only lists a few presidents. Nowhere near 40.
2) it doesn't list which people were pardoned "expressly to protect executive branch members who were convicted of obstructing investigations into possibly impeachable offenses in the executive branch"--it's simply a laundry list of notable people pardoned

Protect them from what exactly? There was no crime committed in the outing of Plame, none. What "impeachable offenses"?

What so stupid about this entire thing is that Fitzgerald, knew who leaked Plame to the press the day he started the investigation. So he knew who leaked it, that no crime was committed he spends two years investigating what? Countless millions of tax dollars, throws reporters in jail and comes up with a he said she said perjury case on Libby.

[aurik]

Except that list fails to support your assertion (both of 100% and 40 of 43) in several ways. Here are a few reasons why it fails:
1) it only lists a few presidents. Nowhere near 40.
2) it doesn't list which people were pardoned "expressly to protect executive branch members who were convicted of obstructing investigations into possibly impeachable offenses in the executive branch"--it's simply a laundry list of notable people pardoned

Protect them from what exactly? There was no crime committed in the outing of Plame, none. What "impeachable offenses"?

Protecting them from some or all of the consequences of an "obstruction of justice" conviction, obviously.

The outing of Plame in this case would be the possibly impeachable offense under investigation to which I refer. The actual commission of a special investigation and appointment of Fitzgerald serves as sufficient evidence that it was reasonable to believe that it was possible some impeachable offense had occurred.

[Tyche]

expressly to protect executive branch members who were convicted of obstructing investigations into possibly impeachable offenses in the executive branch

Cannot recall a pardon of a member of the executive branch for those exact stipulations, but Clair George was pardoned by Bush Sr. on a ton of perjury charges. Lied during a couple of congressional and grand jury investigations. Although he wasn't in the executive branch, he was protecting branch members during Irangate which was definitely an impeachable offense. There was public outrage then, but the legislation wasn't changed. It will not be changed this time. The legislature allows for this.

[aurik]

Thanks, Tyche. That's a good example of the kind of thing I'm talking about exactly.

How many more outrages will it take before we learn our lesson? Hooray for an electorate with the collective memory of a goldfish.

[Fuuko]

Protecting them from some or all of the consequences of an "obstruction of justice" conviction, obviously.

The outing of Plame in this case would be the possibly impeachable offense under investigation to which I refer. The actual commission of a special investigation and appointment of Fitzgerald serves as sufficient evidence that it was reasonable to believe that it was possible some impeachable offense had occurred.

I think we are talking past each other. My argument is that Libby is charged with a crime that never would have happened if Fitzgerald had not gone fishing well beyond the scope in which he was appointed. The fact's are Fitzgerald investigated Libby , and Rove, for two years on a the crime of leaking Plame's name to the press. When he knew the first day that they had not been the person to leak it.

“The reasons why Mr. Libby was not charged with an offense directly relating to his unauthorized disclosures of classified information regarding Ms. Wilson,” Fitzgerald writes, “included, but were not limited to, the fact that Mr. Libby’s false testimony obscured a confident determination of what in fact occurred, particularly where the accounts of the reporters with whom Mr. Libby spoke (and their notes) did not include any explicit evidence specifically proving that Mr. Libby knew that Ms. Wilson was a covert agent.”

As you can see he is saying that Libby perjured himself to "obscure" the investigation into a crime Fitzgerald knew they had not committed. As well as the entire case of Libby's obstruction and perjury is based on conflicting accounts between him and some reporters, mostly Tim Russert. Fitzgerald spent years investigating people he knew had not committed the crime he was charged with investigating. The crime was created out of thin air, he created the situation by abusing his power. Thats my point.

The commuting of the sentence is dubious to me, I think he should have delayed it till after the appeal, if that is even possible. There are so many things wrong with the entire ordeal, that I personally think the conviction will be reversed on appeal. However, If not he should have had his time still to serve.

[Correction]

As you can see he is saying that Libby perjured himself to "obscure" the investigation into a crime Fitzgerald knew they had not committed. As well as the entire case of Libby's obstruction and perjury is based on conflicting accounts between him and some reporters, mostly Tim Russert. Fitzgerald spent years investigating people he knew had not committed the crime he was charged with investigating. The crime was created out of thin air, he created the situation by abusing his power. Thats my point.

It doesn't matter that Fitzgerald knew Libby wasn't the man who leaked Plame's identity. He didn't force Libby to lie to a grand jury. The way you say it you sound like Fitzgerald mind controlled Libby during his statement, forcing a lie out of him.

[skurlover]

As you can see he is saying that Libby perjured himself to "obscure" the investigation into a crime Fitzgerald knew they had not committed. As well as the entire case of Libby's obstruction and perjury is based on conflicting accounts between him and some reporters, mostly Tim Russert. Fitzgerald spent years investigating people he knew had not committed the crime he was charged with investigating. The crime was created out of thin air, he created the situation by abusing his power. Thats my point.

It doesn't matter that Fitzgerald knew Libby wasn't the man who leaked Plame's identity. He didn't force Libby to lie to a grand jury. The way you say it you sound like Fitzgerald mind controlled Libby during his statement, forcing a lie out of him.

Was this grand jury an open one, or was it leaked to the press like every high profile case?

[aurik]

This just in, it's OK to lie under oath as long as you're not concealing a crime.
...
Wait, what?

Fitzgerald overreaching the scope of his assignment is a wholly separate issue, which should have no bearing on whether it's proper for the president to pardon or reprieve cronies who were convicted of illegally working to misdirect an investigation with potential to expose the president or his staff to charges. Whether Fitzgerald overreached his scope is hardly settled fact--it's quite debatable--but is entirely not relevant to the ethics surrounding the grant of clemency.

[Jimmayus]

That article that started this wrote:

Libby was not accused of disclosing Plame's identity himself. But at trial, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald told the jury that Libby's actions left "a cloud over the White House" by obstructing the leak probe.

so why are you saying Fitzgerald made up the allegation of outing Plame?

[aurik]

Fitzgerald wasn't investigating who outed Plame, he was investigating if the administration had an illicit role around the outing of Plame. But that's neither here nor there when we're discussing Libby's perjury and obstruction of justice, because lying under oath to a grand jury is a felony regardless of whether you are concealing a crime or not.

[arlania]

It's complete horseshit that this went down but did anyone really expect our class act of a president to do anything else? Bush is failure for this country and I cant wait to see him out of office.

[Jimmayus]

I didn't mean to direct that at you Aurik sorry >.>

[Xiona]

Bush's stay in office was riddled with signs it was going to blow from the chads to today. Im willing to bet if he wasnt a douchebag and his terms were going fantastic noone would care about his pardoning of Scooter haha. Noone really likes him except idiots, and when you dont like someone you hate everything "they" do regardless of if others did the same... them doing it just seems to urk you more so.

hell i dont like certain types of laughs but if your body is hot enough and youre cool enough it wont bother me, maybe Georgie should start wearing muscle shirts and wearing aviator glasses around.