Politics: Bush commutes Libby's prison term

[aurik]

Interesting article at FOX (of all places): http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jul03/ ... ge,00.html

A relevant statistic for Tyche:

Federal court records indicate that 382 people were convicted for obstruction of justice over the past two years. Three of four were sent to prison. The average prison term was 64 months, more than five years. The largest group of defendants drew prison terms ranging from 13 months to 31 months.

[Tyche]

The point I've been trying to make all along, and I think Aurik understood it even though our opinions are opposed is that this has happened before. I'm sure it has happened more times than I could cite off the top of my head. It was outrageous then, and it's outrageous now, and the legislation was still never revised. Some people are saying that these types of matters are not for the president to decide, it's for the legislative process to decide. There is a double-edged sword there however, because legislation allows for the president to decide. This goes without saying that only a year (or two?) ago the supreme court made a ruling that literally made the Federal Sentencing Guidelines a mere suggestion box. Essentially, that is the reason I'm not completely outraged about how this all went down. Granted, the implications of said perjurers are not by any means created equal, I realize this, but saying that "perjury demands jail time" is absolutely incorrect.

The problem is that this is a base mentality you are being exposed to; that it is "just perjury." Lying about stealing money, or being an accomplice, or some other personal matter has short-term personal implications. I can see calling it "just perjury," but the problem is that his lying and then his sentence being commuted sends a message to anyone that ever wants to serve this country in a respect that their lives are in danger if their identity is revealed that their lives depend not on the morals and laws of this country but on the basis of whose side are you on of the politics of this country.


Why should any federal agent, or anyone serving this country lose their right to free speech or ability to associate someone who not only vocally opposes but completes a public investigation counter to the administration in powers views and goals? This sets an extremely insipid precedent that effects everyone in this country. It is a distortion of the law and a public flaunting of class and power. This isn't "just perjury," this is the ruination of years of lawmaking and moral obligation to this country, it's citizens, and most importantly its servants.


You cannot ever in a million years on any level of logic justify what was done today and throw it away as saying the verdict was too heavy for the crime. Furthermore the person who pardoned him, because of his attachment to the entire scandal, should not have the ability to have pardoned him in light of the facts. Like I said, conflict of interest.

Today all we witnessed was the return of the "good ol' boys" who can run around town causing as much trouble as they like, and no matter who catches or arrests them some type of daddy figure will bail them out. It's fucking disgusting beyond belief that the act that brought it to this occurred, and in a search for truth someone lies and the country and world is taught in America that it is ok to lie, as long as you have powerful friends to bail you out.


And then on top of it all you have 6 year olds - in this forum and on TV - saying BUT HE DID IT TOO!!!!! I CAN DO IT BECAUSE HE DID IT. Pathetic. To even use that phrase in any argument is the likeness of using Nazi in a forum argument. It's a catch all argument someone uses when they have no argument. I'd have more respect for people that had the balls to just say "Yeah nigga my fucking team just did that shit, what now?" instead of using babytalk to fake a point.

I thought I was quite explicit in stating that the implications of any given perjury will not be equal. Someone lying about taking steroids on the stand does not warrant the same punishment as a CIA agent covering up mass weapon sales to a rebel nation. My argument has never once touched the "well, since x person did it, then y person can do it". No, X person did it, and the public knew he did it, and DESPITE mass public outrage, the legislation was never revised. I'm not going to fault GWB for pretty much playing judge here and handing down a sentence that is perfectly within the guidelines that any federal judge can and would, and has handed down in the past. If A judge initially handed down the sentence that the communation essentially gave, would there be this outrage? Absolutely not. It's on outrage because GWB used power that legislative powers gave someone in his position long ago. Do I think the whole idea needs to be revised? No doubt. Do I blame GWB? Absolutely not, people are well-aware of presidential pardon power, and they've seen it abused in the past. However, the issue has never been pressed in the media so hard that it causes a ripple that may lead to the legislative process reworked. I find it funny that, despite far worse abuses of this power, it takes the public's absolute hatred of the current administration that may eventually lead to revision that should have been implemented decades ago. Let's be completely honest with ourselves, if this happened to an administration with a 90%+ approval rating, would it get this much coverage?

[aurik]

It's a power enshrined in the constitution, not something legislated. That makes it hard as fuck to change. Look how long the 14th amendment took despite the claims of universal equality found as early as the Declaration of Independence.

[Tyche]

This is absolutely the best chance you are going to get for a very long time for a revision to be considered. Low approval rating with a republican president, democratic power on capitol hill, and a huge public outcry. Despite differing opinions on the specifics, I absolutely agree there should be revision and this may be the last chance to at least get the ball rolling for a long time.

[MF Perm]

The point I've been trying to make all along, and I think Aurik understood it even though our opinions are opposed is that this has happened before. I'm sure it has happened more times than I could cite off the top of my head. It was outrageous then, and it's outrageous now, and the legislation was still never revised. Some people are saying that these types of matters are not for the president to decide, it's for the legislative process to decide. There is a double-edged sword there however, because legislation allows for the president to decide. This goes without saying that only a year (or two?) ago the supreme court made a ruling that literally made the Federal Sentencing Guidelines a mere suggestion box. Essentially, that is the reason I'm not completely outraged about how this all went down. Granted, the implications of said perjurers are not by any means created equal, I realize this, but saying that "perjury demands jail time" is absolutely incorrect.

The problem is that this is a base mentality you are being exposed to; that it is "just perjury." Lying about stealing money, or being an accomplice, or some other personal matter has short-term personal implications. I can see calling it "just perjury," but the problem is that his lying and then his sentence being commuted sends a message to anyone that ever wants to serve this country in a respect that their lives are in danger if their identity is revealed that their lives depend not on the morals and laws of this country but on the basis of whose side are you on of the politics of this country.


Why should any federal agent, or anyone serving this country lose their right to free speech or ability to associate someone who not only vocally opposes but completes a public investigation counter to the administration in powers views and goals? This sets an extremely insipid precedent that effects everyone in this country. It is a distortion of the law and a public flaunting of class and power. This isn't "just perjury," this is the ruination of years of lawmaking and moral obligation to this country, it's citizens, and most importantly its servants.


You cannot ever in a million years on any level of logic justify what was done today and throw it away as saying the verdict was too heavy for the crime. Furthermore the person who pardoned him, because of his attachment to the entire scandal, should not have the ability to have pardoned him in light of the facts. Like I said, conflict of interest.

Today all we witnessed was the return of the "good ol' boys" who can run around town causing as much trouble as they like, and no matter who catches or arrests them some type of daddy figure will bail them out. It's fucking disgusting beyond belief that the act that brought it to this occurred, and in a search for truth someone lies and the country and world is taught in America that it is ok to lie, as long as you have powerful friends to bail you out.


And then on top of it all you have 6 year olds - in this forum and on TV - saying BUT HE DID IT TOO!!!!! I CAN DO IT BECAUSE HE DID IT. Pathetic. To even use that phrase in any argument is the likeness of using Nazi in a forum argument. It's a catch all argument someone uses when they have no argument. I'd have more respect for people that had the balls to just say "Yeah nigga my fucking team just did that shit, what now?" instead of using babytalk to fake a point.

I thought I was quite explicit in stating that the implications of any given perjury will not be equal. Someone lying about taking steroids on the stand does not warrant the same punishment as a CIA agent covering up mass weapon sales to a rebel nation. My argument has never once touched the "well, since x person did it, then y person can do it". No, X person did it, and the public knew he did it, and DESPITE mass public outrage, the legislation was never revised. I'm not going to fault GWB for pretty much playing judge here and handing down a sentence that is perfectly within the guidelines that any federal judge can and would, and has handed down in the past. If A judge initially handed down the sentence that the communation essentially gave, would there be this outrage? Absolutely not. It's on outrage because GWB used power that legislative powers gave someone in his position long ago. Do I think the whole idea needs to be revised? No doubt. Do I blame GWB? Absolutely not, people are well-aware of presidential pardon power, and they've seen it abused in the past. However, the issue has never been pressed in the media so hard that it causes a ripple that may lead to the legislative process reworked. I find it funny that, despite far worse abuses of this power, it takes the public's absolute hatred of the current administration that may eventually lead to revision that should have been implemented decades ago. Let's be completely honest with ourselves, if this happened to an administration with a 90%+ approval rating, would it get this much coverage?

An administration with a 90% approval rating likely wouldn't be in this situation.

I understand your point, you're trying to be objective and that's very respectable. It's not easy to take that position of "defending" GWB. My point is that the whole leak came from his administration, so regardless of him having these powers or not and who abused them in the past; this was an extreme conflict of interest because it involved people in his inner political and administrative circle.

He should have shown some restraint, and this is my argument about what his actions in the commutation imply. If he bailed out some corporate exec buddy that embezzled money or committed tax evasion I wouldn't bitch because Clinton did the same. I'm bitching because of the cause and effect. Am I surprised he did this? Fuck no. It obviously confirmed mine and everyone elses beliefs to how crooked him and his team really are, and how far they are willing to disrupt American law for their own desires.

GWB knows who leaked her name. GWB knows Libby lied on purpose to protect Rove and Cheney. GWB ( or likely Rove and Cheney who informed GWB ) knew some lower tier dipshit was going to take the heat or be thrown into the fire only to be pardoned afterwards. For an administration that was the architect of the illegal Iraq war, this little show was child's play to them.


And to go back regarding the firing of attorneys - to whomever said the president can fire and hire at will, you're a fucking idiot. Federal lawyers do not serve a political party or purpose, they serve the country. The president may hire them based on their political affiliation, but not to falsify information or push prosecution without enough evidence to force a political agenda. That's fucking fascist. So whatever moron earlier justified the firing of attorneys - which by the way they misleadingly said it was due to performance which if anyone pays attention to a semblance or current events knows this was untrue - when it turned out they just weren't pushing fraud cases onto democratic politicians.


This "regime" is manipulating the law to their own will and for their own purposes. I don't get how even people on their own side cannot see how destructive this is. If these guys were assaulting the religious liberties and institutions of this country instead of the civil ones people would be losing their fucking minds about now. The loopholes and bullshit agendas these guys are getting away with forcing onto us are putting us into dangerous territory. They've already tried impressing nationalistic fervor onto us with the "defending freedom" and "spreading democracy" bullshit. Telling us to hate other countries and boycott them if they don't agree with us WHICH IS THE ENTIRE ANTI-THESIS TO A DEMOCRATIC STATE.


This is the same line - as long as you agree with us, you're ok.

[MF Perm]

This is absolutely the best chance you are going to get for a very long time for a revision to be considered. Low approval rating with a republican president, democratic power on capitol hill, and a huge public outcry. Despite differing opinions on the specifics, I absolutely agree there should be revision and this may be the last chance for a long time.

It won't change, Tyche. The Democrats are no better. They won't reform campaign finance, lobbying, corruption, or earmarks. Why? Because they think it's their turn now. They have the power and they want to abuse it. It's an entirely faulty system. The way Dems see it is the same way Repubs do, if they can do it we'll look forward to when we can do it. It's so very tragic, and not many Americans get it.