-DeathHouse- dynamis (unique lotting system)

[Shuemue]

Not all ice gear is worth a higher minimum bid though, for example melee crown. That's worth uh, 1 point maybe?

[Amele]

what you just pointed out about the possibilty of the 3 top points holders colluding is valid (THANKYOU). It's good that you pointed it out, but I'm sure we woulda noticed if the winning bid for rdm hat was 5points or somthing daft. 2 ways to fix this off the top of my head indirectly:
1. a larger minimum bid on the icelands AF. say 7 points or somthing. the armour would be good enough to warrent the point expenditure
2. we can increase the gap by how much ppl need to outbid by from 1point to say 3. even if ppl are colluding, ppl would still need to outbid to prevent lotting.

a faster and cleaner fix is to allow anyone who can wear the piece to bid, rather than restrict it to the top few.

why should new players be forced to wait for trickle down effect, if they're willing to bid a larger point sum?

I know this is looking like just another "lets get rELIC!" shell.. but it isn't.. you ppl have just seen too many to have any faith left.. also we dont plan on changing any of the more serious rules, but thing like "turn party macros off" yeah lol.. that probably doesn't matter

personally, I wouldn't even make those rules at all until you've got a few runs under your belt with the actual group - meta rules are highly dependent on the people in the shell, after all.

BTW we use points...only thing we don't use /point for is dynamis (well and Salvage)

/derail: what system do you use for salvage, points also?

[Grieverao]

For someone supposed to be offering "just" an opinion, it sounds too much like your loflaming is taking this a bit personal.

You don't know the LS leaders, you don't know it's members. But you can still go as far as to make a clear judgement based on "growing" statistics and numbers?

Oh I'm sorry I forgot you logged on your character for the first time with 5 75 jobs and CoP Dynamis access. Everybody starts somewhere and due to the amount of new, failing Dynamis LS's on Hades, WE are now stepping up to the plate. Bringing a new system to Hades and it's aggrevated players.

And FFS stop with this BS you have about members staying "the top 3". It's absolute nonsense. The system is there so that everyone who works for the points gets a chance. If some members wants to hoard points for an item then fair enough, they worked for it. If a new member wants the chance to get AF they will work just as hard for themselves and the LS to obtain points to use. Your right the're not going to start getting drops from the word go. You wouldn't walk into a new job with no experience expecting to get a raise straight away would you?

Say after 6 months of no drop the RDM hat drops
highest bidders have 22, 29 and 36 points. All 3 RDMs will want it, it's a rule of thumb everyone is greedy, especially on rare spoils. And they deserve to be for earning the points.

So he cannot be outbid the top bidder must bid a minumum of 30 points. Thus putting him back down the line.

Due to us not going near Icelands just yet we may invoke a higher minimum bid for Icelands / Dreamworlds like most LS's increase points on anyways. But thats at our decision and discretion.

You don't like our points system or LS rules then thats fine. Good for you, and like I said before constructive critisism is always welcomed. But spitting your dummy out saying "lolExcel pointsorz" won't hold any water with us. And such interesting comments will just be ignored.

[Amele]

For someone supposed to be offering "just" an opinion, it sounds too much like your loflaming is taking this a bit personal.

can I put in a formal request for a popcorn munching smiley? this thread is about to get good I think.

Everybody starts somewhere and due to the amount of new, failing Dynamis LS's on Hades, WE are now stepping up to the plate. Bringing a new system to Hades and it's aggrevated players.

we're aggravated? I could name six successful established shells that are recruiting off the top of my head on hades right now; and that's even just during the NA prime time.

And FFS stop with this BS you have about members staying "the top 3". It's absolute nonsense. The system is there so that everyone who works for the points gets a chance.

as written this system does the opposite.

If some members wants to hoard points for an item then fair enough, they worked for it. If a new member wants the chance to get AF they will work just as hard for themselves and the LS to obtain points to use. Your right the're not going to start getting drops from the word go. You wouldn't walk into a new job with no experience expecting to get a raise straight away would you?

I'm not expecting 0 point players to get items. it's unreasonable to expect a player to be in the top 10 point holders in a 64 man instance before they can realistically expect to get anything other than tablescraps, sorry.

Say after 6 months of no drop the RDM hat drops
highest bidders have 22, 29 and 36 points. All 3 RDMs will want it, it's a rule of thumb everyone is greedy, especially on rare spoils. And they deserve to be for earning the points.

So he cannot be outbid the top bidder must bid a minumum of 30 points. Thus putting him back down the line.

you presume that there would be no collusion between the top 3 members of a given job. - if I was in the top three this is what I would do:

ok, we all bid exactly minimum points on everything- we can decide between ourselves who gets what (since we'll probably have different partial pieces) and preserve our positions. we can *force* ties. which I'm not sure how your system would handle exactly (I'll be honest, I haven't looked at it with that fine-toothed a comb) but I'd assume you'd let both of them lot.

what does this mean? 4 point rdm hats for the top three redmages, who will never drop below top three.

You don't like our points system or LS rules then thats fine. Good for you, and like I said before constructive critisism is always welcomed. But spitting your dummy out saying "lolExcel pointsorz" won't hold any water with us. And such interesting comments will just be ignored.

points systems that aren't zero-sum -will- degenerate. it's just a matter of how long it'll take and what other safeguards are in place.

the biggest 'safeguard' against loot whoring in your rules actually *protects* collusive behavior in your top members, so I don't see how this system is going to end well.

but I've got a dynamis shell I'm happy with already anyway, so more power to you, I guess.

edit: grammar > Amele

[Fng]

You actually believe that people with no chance of winning an AF will even show up? Every linkshell in existance has had this issue.

You are exerbating the issue further becuase of your limited bidding system.

[Grieverao]

Meh I give up, It's BG noone cares

[Zosi]

Griev, you guys are the LS leaders. Get used to taking bullets for the LS, you're the representatives to the outside world. Don't like it? Then go back to /assisting and watching Springer. You chose to take this public, and place your rules and yourselves out for everyone to see. If you can't take the flak that comes from that, TOO BAD. Yes, there's going to be people who impugn your motives, question your rules, and doubt your abilities, some of them will be much more rude than I am.

Yes, everyone starts somewhere. I certainly didn't log in my first day with all the Dynamis experience I did now. However, you also don't see me posting on BG about my awesome new Dynamis LS that everyone should join. As I said before, you're the ones who brought up the huge amount of experience you have.

About the "top 3", it's obvious you've completely ignored my point about collusion because your "years of Dynamis experience" have told you differently. It's a fundamental problem with how you've developed your rules that you assume people are going to act in a certain way that will fit perfectly with the rules. You ignore the fact that your membership might be smart enough to game the system. Also, what we're complaining about isn't that someone can't just waltz into your LS and lot on the best AF2. I'd imagine most people here are in LSs that have a points system of some type, designed to stop just that behavior. What we find issue with is your insistence that it's "fair" that the person with the most points is entitled to ANY AF2 they can wear, and the general ease of lootwhoring in your LS.

Another scenario would be if those three bidders were smarter than you acknowledge. They know that if there's a bidding war, person #1 will come out on top, #2 in second, and #3 in third. They also realize that since they're the only ones bidding, there's no need to blow 20-30 points, since you can achieve the same order with single digit bids. It's simple economics, if there's incentive to collude and no penalties for it, people will.

As for constructive criticism, you've conveniently chose to ignore that part of my post, as well as most others. At least Goshtin reads and responds instead of just saying "Durr I know better then you, you're wrong!"

[Sidanoir]

We have a % attendance requirement to lot 35s in Salvage... Not going to have someone with 20% attendance lotting vs someone with 90%
We also force someone with 1 35 piece already to pass to someone else that meets attendance requirements...its very simplistic but I think it will work for salvage..
Main idea is that those who attend the most get first choice, and that just because they attend the most doesn't mean they should get EVERY drop...
People pick which piece is most important to them as their main lot...and work down from there

This will probably expand as we actually get more 35s and finish some pieces....but I didn't want to do /point for salvage...

[Grieverao]

We are taking flack for the LS.

And all valid points are accepted. We did think about not the top 3 bidders but we will try it this way. When we sat down and spoke about the lotting system we decided it would become the best option.

We know we wont be in icelands within 2 months. We will have people leave and come in and all sorts we are prepared and will manage for that when it comes.

The reason I have not replied so elegantly as Gosh is because he has said everything we'd talked about.

We're a new LS. If our systems do not work for the majority then suitable changes will be made. If it's just 1-2 members bitching about it then we'll note it but not change the whole LS.

All LSs start somewhere and there will always be people trying to put a chink in the chain until our solid base is formed.

If changes are ever made at any point then they will be discussed and assessed with careful consideration over time. Just like our current rules are. The ideas and suggestions on here are good for the moment but our own experience with our members may tell a different story. Experience is the key, and we'll gradually gain that as well as trust and respect as time continues.

[Talisien]

It's funny because I'm on Hades and I was thinking about apping to this shell, but reading your responses has made that impossible, and there's a simple reason why:

You've heard critiques from members of LS with years of actual history.

They've described the problems with your system, in detail, in the very same game and very same areas you play in.

You respond with "We'll take it under advisement."

No point system is ever going to be perfect, but the fact that you're new should make it very clear that if you come to BG, you should treat their word as gospel. This *isn't* anywhere else, it's the end game forum for FFXI. You should thank your lucky stars a place like this exists, and should thank them for critiquing your system. They will save you months of failure for the price of a little humility.

Best of luck to you. As a former leader of a guild/shell, I can tell you this -- learn humility.

[goshtin]

what you just pointed out about the possibilty of the 3 top points holders colluding is valid (THANKYOU). It's good that you pointed it out, but I'm sure we woulda noticed if the winning bid for rdm hat was 5points or somthing daft. 2 ways to fix this off the top of my head indirectly:
1. a larger minimum bid on the icelands AF. say 7 points or somthing. the armour would be good enough to warrent the point expenditure
2. we can increase the gap by how much ppl need to outbid by from 1point to say 3. even if ppl are colluding, ppl would still need to outbid to prevent lotting.

a faster and cleaner fix is to allow anyone who can wear the piece to bid, rather than restrict it to the top few.

why should new players be forced to wait for trickle down effect, if they're willing to bid a larger point sum?

this is another interetsing point..
my hnm shell works on a system of "all bid" so if u want the item, you bid basically. its why my hnm leader spent nearly all his points for a ridill. I'd have said the same in dynamis, but it's time confusing and difficult to control.. HOWEVER
back when I said "top 3 ppl onry" we didn't have the spreadsheet, that shows all the ppl who can bid for it...
with us having access to a list with all the jobs and eligible lotters already highlighted.. we COULD just do it with "all bid"...

this'd reduce colluding and make af even more acessible..
the reaosn we had top 3, was just for the sake of simplictity, but the spreadsheet means we can probably get around it

[Talisien]

Based on your system the prime motivator would be to never fall out of the Top "X" where "X" is whatever number you replace 3 with. Once in the Top 'X' each player within the Top 'X' will view new players as a potential competitor, and thus, the enemy. Because you aren't zero-sum, these people will collude to ensure the highest possible points will be spent by their competition, and the lowest possible points to be spent by themselves. Because you don't even allow outside competition from the lower members, the elite will simply set a price of "minimum" on whatever item drops that they want, and rotate through the top "X" until they all have their items, and then repeat.

Collusion is not a minor thing that people do from time to time, bid systems are RIFE with collusion. Your system creates an unassailable core that cannot be forced to bid at all, and the only way out is to create minimums so high, that bidding has virtually no affect on the outcome (because bidding at all results in a typically "high" expenditure).

The system is completely flawed. If bidding exists, at all, with or without minimums, it is kept in check by allowing lower-point members to bid. You not only invalidate them, but even if you lifted the rule, you don't allow people to spend into the negatives (or bid into the negatives) which again, creates collusion by the higher point members, because they are out of range of other bidders.

[Amele]

We have a % attendance requirement to lot 35s in Salvage... Not going to have someone with 20% attendance lotting vs someone with 90%
We also force someone with 1 35 piece already to pass to someone else that meets attendance requirements...its very simplistic but I think it will work for salvage..
Main idea is that those who attend the most get first choice, and that just because they attend the most doesn't mean they should get EVERY drop...
People pick which piece is most important to them as their main lot...and work down from there

This will probably expand as we actually get more 35s and finish some pieces....but I didn't want to do /point for salvage...

that's.. actually not a bad system. I'll probably do some sort of priority system based on what people want most once we actually get running (finishing up a couple gomleks and storm fifes before we start spending AP on salvage haha) my crew is small enough that bad attendance is going to result in us not getting runs done at all (sort of like how most groups do nyzul isle) I also don't want to be having to /point the items out as we get them

probably as simple as: rank everything you want 1 to whatever, when it drops, highest priority member(s) lot it out.

[Septimus]

Why do people post on these forums then get upset when people respond the in way in which anyone who even casually reads the forums would expect? This thread is down-right civil compared to what I expected when I read the first post. "Look at my uber-awesome new system that I designed for loot that has never been done before in the history of gaming! Huh? You mean it has been done before and failed? YOU PEOPLE ARE MEAN DO-DO-HEADS!!!"

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the forums.

[goshtin]

actually it's the opposite..
griev and me are considering removing the "top 3" rule..
cause we need to tell everyone now llol, but the collusion problem is very valid..
cheers for pointing that out

[Palom]

You actually believe that people with no chance of winning an AF will even show up?

This is exactly why I left my last Dynamis shell. I was in the shell for six months, and only came out with 1 item: trash that no one else wanted. In that six months, I was not even given the chance to lot on anything I wanted. I couldn't even say I just had bad lots. I simply was not allowed to lot because long-standing members had so many points that it was impossible for me to catch up. They would spend 1 point more than I had, yet still have 10x that amount left over to do it again.

Edit: It also didn't help that I had no friends in the LS and most of them were complete noobs.

[skurlover]

You actually believe that people with no chance of winning an AF will even show up?

This is exactly why I left my last Dynamis shell. I was in the shell for six months, and only came out with 1 item: trash that no one else wanted. In that six months, I was not even given the chance to lot on anything I wanted. I couldn't even say I just had bad lots. I simply was not allowed to lot because long-standing members had so many points that it was impossible for me to catch up. They would spend 1 point more than I had, yet still have 10x that amount left over to do it again.

Edit: It also didn't help that I had no friends in the LS and most of them were complete noobs.

Yes, I would agree that getting into a shell a year or later into a points based LS is very difficult to catch up sometimes. But I think the shell that I and a lot of Odin has come and gone from is decent at the point system with live bidding like lolebay. Now, our case is a bit complicated because it took one of the leaders to take a very dedicated amount of time to put the web coding together. Read thru it, as a non-member, you should still be able to see a lot of the drops and how the bidding system works.

http://www.obsidianodin.com

[LLK]

Obisidan bidding is very complicated.

Whoever (Gawayne?) put all that together really took there time to do it.

[Dexster]

In the rare chance we do wipe then we need to be up and ready ASAP.

In a dynamis linkshell starting out, even with experienced assists, pullers, sleepers I would be willing to guess it won't be all that rare. From talking with a friend of mine about his Dynamis Standalone shell, they wipe usually 1 time a run, even on cities. Usually because someone not turning off /autotarget or a blm that thinks they can solo a mnk.

[vegetaa]

I know this is looking like just another "lets get rELIC!" shell.. but it isn't.. you ppl have just seen too many to have any faith left..

Why should we have any faith about your LS becoming successful ?

You're selling us a group that barely exists as an amazing Dynamis-ass-kicking-machine©. Right now we don't care, and we won't start caring about your rules without seeing them at work. That's why I said above, and I'll say it again : Run that LS for a year, accomplish stuff, then come back here and post some FUCKING FACTS about your rules being amazingly good.