BLM Merits

[Tajin]

well, FUCK, now i need to ungimp /NIN

[Sci]

and how many time would you live because drain/aspir didnt resist (or stun >_>...if that thing ever resist)

Khimaira, Cerberus, Chariots all can resist stun. And yes, on those a resisted Stun can mean death. And it doesn't have to be a matter of life/death if something can increase your efficiency. Like JoL, which for my LS is an hour+ of nuking by BLMs. Casting lots of Drains and Aspirs, and no enfeebles for obvious reasons. And I can think of a few times where a good drain saved my life. Like I can recall a KV where I survived with double digit HP right after a drain. And I'm often casting Drain on Chariots while kiting around, because sometimes I'm BLM/NIN and that's my only way of curing myself besides yelling at other mages on vent.

It's situational, and probably heavily biased by the style of the linkshell. I'd personally get a lot more benefit out of dark skill than enfeebling, and I would say most of the BLMs in my LS would as well.

[Kaylia]

Never had any resist on cerberus on BLM, and we can handle GoH pretty well. Never had any Stun resist on khimairai after our first claim, and only because we spammed stun on it for the whole fight.


Chariot resist stun, but stunning their WS is kinda hard, and the % chance it was stunned by your dark merit make it really situational. Enfeebling is good everywhere, and usually mean much more than stun.

Your 16 dark merits wont make a difference for a fight like JoL, 1k dmg in a fight you have to do 150k(?) dmg wont do a big difference...assuming 16 dark will make 1k difference over 1hour.

[SephYuyX]

Yeah, the only Stuns I see fail on Cerb is from /DRKs

[Sci]

I've seen a BLM stun get resisted once on Cerb, so it's possible. I'm not sure what staff he was wearing at the time either, that could have been a big factor. But yeah, it's super rare because that one time was the only time I've seen it. (Besides /DRK)

And in a fight like JoL, it's unresisted Aspirs that would make a decent difference. Drain it's hard to tell what you're doing most times. An unresisted Aspir vs a fully resisted one makes a large difference. And if you want another life/death scenario, if all hell breaks loose, like Astral Flow and Ru'Phaubos one shotting a few BLMs with Aerial Collision, maybe that unresisted Aspir gave you enough MP to cast a second ga to down the Phaubos before a wipe. But more likely, it just helps you cast more nukes on JoL which could easily add more than 1k an hour in dmg.

Oh and stunning Discoid from Battleclad Chariot is very possible. With good stunners the only real issue is stun resists, not time to stun. So you can't rely on it, but it makes the fight a lot smoother. But more +skill should reduce the number of resists and the amount of Discoids you'd have to eat.

You don't have to agree with me. : P It's just my personal opinion that Dark > Enfeebling for blm merits.

[shukuffxi]

Slightly off topic, but didn't wanna start a new thread: What's an optimal hand piece for manaburn/solo/duo for a BLM who's magic skill merits are taken? I have Zenith Mitts and Yigit Gages, and I can easily get Igqira hands, AF1+1 I have the R/EX items but extremely limited on space and have been delaying on getting them. I can't see which is the clear cut winner. My nuking gear is normal, weskit/hq staff/p.rope/obis/ele torque/etc, no Elemental Earring, but might end up with a Merciful Cape once Ix'MNK decides to drop. No INT merits, alot of 75s, but i'm leaning towards 5/5 INT. Or is the difference so minimal between all of them in terms of damage (cept AF1+1 hands) that it doesn't really matter?

[Kaylia]

On HNM, always use af1/+1. I remember yigit doing more dmg on pudding, but I don't think it would apply on everything. Either way, I'm not willing to lose the 50mp for 2-3 dmg per nuke. Not 100% sure I'm correct...wait for antoher reply

[Nirokun!]

if your inventory is limited, your gear is fine

zenith mitts for stuff that wont resist you
af1 hands for stuff that will resist you
yigit hands for resting/stoneskin (never actually tried them on puddings, oh well)

point being, you can test the zenith vs. yigit next time you go out, but you already have what you need

[shukuffxi]

Z.Mitts beat Yigit Hands (tested with Burst II, Z.Mitts: 1710, Yigit Hands: 1701), on puddings, people were snapping up the Wamoura.

As for XP mobs I think what I am trying to get at is, even though i'm not resisted much, since I can't merit Elemental Magic Skill, would it be worth it to play up the INT part of the math? Trying to get my INT to dwarf the mobs INT to reduce what few resists I do get and still keep damage fairly high. Is there a way to figure out how much INT an XP mob has, and gear accordingly for it? I remember VZX was able to narrow down like the DEF/VIT of some sky gods, is there a similiar method to test for INT? And yeah, obviously HNM/resistant stuff, AF/+1 hands ^^

[Suiram]

As for XP mobs I think what I am trying to get at is, even though i'm not resisted much, since I can't merit Elemental Magic Skill, would it be worth it to play up the INT part of the math? Trying to get my INT to dwarf the mobs INT to reduce what few resists I do get and still keep damage fairly high. Is there a way to figure out how much INT an XP mob has, and gear accordingly for it? I remember VZX was able to narrow down like the DEF/VIT of some sky gods, is there a similiar method to test for INT? And yeah, obviously HNM/resistant stuff, AF/+1 hands ^^

It takes 1 nuke to determine how much INT a mob has, but that's not going to tell you anything about how you need to gear to lower your resists, seeing as none of that stuff (what exactly factors into resists and the amount needed to sustain high accuracy) has ever been established.

[Seditedi]

solo/duo Ix'drk

Not entirely sure how you can separate the Qn's when popping Ix'drk solo.
As for Duo or more, if you need shadows u need to learn how to kite <_< lol.

[shukuffxi]

It takes 1 nuke to determine how much INT a mob has, but that's not going to tell you anything about how you need to gear to lower your resists, seeing as none of that stuff (what exactly factors into resists and the amount needed to sustain high accuracy) has ever been established.

Is this the formula from: Damage = [(cINT - tINT) x TIM + SDC] x MAB x ESB x DWB ?

My math is kinda horrible, but just trying to figure out pudding int, plugging in #s from that thread on Alla where it was posted (I know it's on Wiki somewhere too), I get:

1321(Thunder IV) = [(106 - X) x 2.0 + 541] x 1.5 x 1.15 x 0 , using my stats at time of casting. Only # I didn't put in there was Ltng. Potency merit (5/5) because I wasn't sure which part of the equation it fit in, all other #s should be exact.

But i'm kinda lost on how to solve for X >_> I remember something about isolating X all alone on one side, but it's 4:50AM and i'm tired, maybe someone has a link for how to solve something simple like this or one of the math people can do it?

Regardless, I thought once you get to a certain # of INT above a mobs INT, then the chances of resist drop significantly. And why BLM like INT etude on things like Kirin, because if your INT is too low, no matter what you do you are screwed?

[Suiram]

That formula has the right idea but will give you the wrong numbers (due to the fact that the actual calculation takes the integer component before proceeding to the next term in a specific order). The one on the wiki will, just by varying INT until you arrive at the value you got from your damage. Anyhow, for puddings in Zhayolm, nivlakian tested those already and posted here on these forums that they have 89-90 INT depending on level, and that they take 25% increased damage.

As for the effect of INT on resists, it's a commonly-held opinion that isn't ever backed up by anything substantial, so even if you want to agree that it seems true, that's still far from being able to come up with any kind of value that says "you want X amount of INT to see a noticeable improvement in resist rates."

[shukuffxi]

That formula has the right idea but will give you the wrong numbers (due to the fact that the actual calculation takes the integer component before proceeding to the next term in a specific order). The one on the wiki will, just by varying INT until you arrive at the value you got from your damage. Anyhow, for puddings in Zhayolm, nivlakian tested those already and posted here on these forums that they have 89-90 INT depending on level, and that they take 25% increased damage.

As for the effect of INT on resists, it's a commonly-held opinion that isn't ever backed up by anything substantial, so even if you want to agree that it seems true, that's still far from being able to come up with any kind of value that says "you want X amount of INT to see a noticeable improvement in resist rates."

Thanks for the fast reply.

As for the 2nd paragraph, could this be test by say taking a naked 75 BLM with no Elemental Skill merits, on neutral day/weather except for Z.Mitts, nuking a pudding (well, more like Wamoura, since they are usually open and puddings arent ) like 50x with Thunder IV, keeping track of resists, then nuking 50x w/o Z.Mitts but say with a piece with a decent amouont of +INT, say Mahatma Slops. If you get something like 10% less resists with Mahatma Slops on only, instead of Z. Mitts, wouldn't that prove that extra INT helps?

[Suiram]

The consensus is more or less that Magic Attack Bonus only comes into play towards your final damage, but not as a part of a % chance that the spell will resist, so zenith mitts on or off isn't going to make a difference. Also, while I don't know much about statistics, I know enough to know that the people who know about statistics are going to say that 50 trials isn't going to come nearly close enough to give you an idea of what you are looking to establish. Also, +8 INT isn't likely going to make a considerable difference either, even if it is to some extent determined by INT.

I'm sure the best way to test it would be with something loosely along the lines of what you suggest, but with a larger difference in INT between the trials and a much larger sample size--the latter being the likely reason nobody has felt like taking the time to actually test it already.

[Seditedi]

Yea, this INT=M.acc theory is completely ridiculous with no decent supporting information. There might be tiers for certain mobs/HNM where X INT will give less resist similar to DEX and critical hits, but in no way is INT magic accuracy

[Lhexh]

I compiled these numbers a few months ago on my RDM mule soloing some xp buffer. Obviously the sample sizes aren't large enough to draw conclusive results and because it only uses 2 INT sets you can't make the distinguishment whether its a linear relationship between INT and resist rate or whether exceeding the mobs INT caused a tier increase. Would require tests at a few different INT levels to make that determination. All this data really contributes is that a substantial increase in INT seems to corrolate to a decrease in resist rates. I did these tests on Puddings in Halvung as 75 RDM/BLM, which are level 77-79 mobs. I tracked the resists by mob level and by resist type.

First Gear Set: Elemental Magic skill 250, Aquillo's Staff, 79 INT.

Level 77:
Unresisted: 8 [ 88.9% ]
1/2 Resist: 0
1/4 Resist: 1
1/8 Resist: 0

Level 78:
Unresisted: 35 [ 70.0% ]
1/2 Resist: 10
1/4 Resist: 3
1/8 Resist: 2

Level 79:
Unresisted: 27 [ 61.4% ]
1/2 Resist: 10
1/4 Resist: 5
1/8 Resist: 2

Second Gear Set: 250 Elemental Magic, Aquillo's Staff, 150 INT.

Level 77:
Unresisted: 34 [ 94.4% ]
1/2 Resist: 2

Level 78:
Unresisted: 19 [ 86.4% ]
1/2 Resist: 3

Level 79:
Unresisted: 13 [ 92.9% ]
1/2 Resist: 1

[Kaylia]

Yea, this INT=M.acc theory is completely ridiculous with no decent supporting information. There might be tiers for certain mobs/HNM where X INT will give less resist similar to DEX and critical hits, but in no way is INT magic accuracy

Level difference most likely play a role in magic resistance, but saying int might not give m.acc need more backup and supporting information than int giving m.accuracy. It's obvious int give less resist, and there is enough "tier" to make it looks like a constant progressions

Also, where the is the proof that DEX is tier'd? I just remember people testing it with large number difference, which is why it ended like that.

[Suiram]

You say, "that INT might not give macc needs more backup," I say that "INT gives macc" needs more backup as well. I honestly don't know which is right, but I always try to be careful to distinguish between what I suppose to be the case and for what I have a reasonable amount of evidence to support. It maybe 'obvious' to you that INT gives less resists, but enough people have made erroneous claims about things that seem obvious to them in the past regarding stuff like this, that makes it amount to very little indeed. Much less to posit a specific linear relationship on the basis of the melee formula analogs, when so many things are fundamentally different about the relationship between melee stats and melee damage to magic stats and magic damage already. Anyhow not to pick on you because Seditedi is basically doing the same thing from the other side of the argument lol

As for DEX being tiered, I believe (and don't have time to verify atm, if it was even preserved in the rollback) that in the huge DEX/crits thread someone parsed a dramatically different rate of critical hits with a very small difference in DEX, suggesting tiers.

[Kaylia]

Something tell me we are just arguing wording >_>. Caster A with 100 int won't have the same resist than Caster B with 200 int. One with 150 int would have resist somewhere between A and B. That's what I'm calling magic accuracy. It's been proven a long time ago, and it's also easily noticeable.

Is INT directly proportional to a "m.acc" ? I believe so when I compare elvaan to Taru on various mobs like Fafnir and Aerns. You will never notice a huge gap, but the resist rate is different. I understand perfectly it's not a proof, because the sample cover only a small part of the fonction (not to mention BLM are usually close to resist soft cape), but there would be situation where huge gaps could be observed between race (~16 int difference) if it was using a tier system.

My assumption that 1 elemental skill = ~1 m.accuracy (0.9 above 200 maybe?) = ~0.5 int works generally well when it come to explain magic resistance at 75.