Head. Him leaving, good or bad or indifferent.

[Kuya]

MF, are you honestly doing this or are you just trolling?

[MF Perm]

So you believe that every case of teen pregnancy and a spread of an STD is caused by religion? You think that EVERY person in the world not only finds out about some form of religion, but believes and follows it, and then, for whatever reason, they DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS and these things occur. Right, what I said was ignorant, what you just responded to me is entirely logical.

When I was in high school a few years ago, far more people knew and cared about sex than even gave a thought to religion. Peer pressure (which is highly motivated by non-religious people) will account for far more cases of STD spreading and teenage pregnancy than an abstinence only teaching. There were cases of teenage pregnancy in my *middle school* though condoms and safe sex were taught there.

Remember folks, teenage pregnancy is all because of religious people who refuse to follow their religious teachings, it has nothing to do with peer pressure, with the idea that you must get laid by at least prom night if you're any sort of a cool person, the thought that being a virgin is unimportant and that sex is now thought of as just "something fun" by todays society, no, it's abstinence only teaching which somehow accounts for every single case of unprotected sex that goes on in America.

Do you understand that if sex was taught freely at an early age that it wasn't some evil thing, that pleasure wasn't bad - and that children were taught about condoms and STD's - that underage sex and teen pregnancy wouldn't be an issue? Do you understand that human nature when we're told don't look, we look.

But thank you for your classic to the T religion versus science argument.

Oh shit look at Sweden having boobs in their commercials - oh wait low teen pregnancy and STD's? SINNERS.

If religion has solved anything than why does a nation of 84% Christians have such problems? Why is the "Holy Land" a land of death and destruction. You name one good thing religion has done for man and I'll name 500 things it's done to set us back. If you think whatever created us gives two flying fucks and a monkeys dick if we curse, have sex, drink, eat pigs, or have statues you're insane.

Hey, eagle, do those frogs that change sexes in the lack of female or male presence go to hell? How about rats that become cannibals or homosexuals in overpopulation? Does Gods other creations go to hell?

Or reality is their belief. Unless you want to come in and make the claim you can 100% prove that every single religious concept is entirely false (just so you know, it's impossible to prove this) so that you can claim that your beliefs are the correct way. Good luck doing that.

You have a really distorted concept of a religious person. My best friend is the person who brought me to Christ and he was one of the most popular people in high school, lead in many theater plays (even playing Ren McCormick in Footloose senior year) and very popular with the women. He stayed true to his beliefs but was still one of the most popular people and came off as a very cool guy to nearly everyone in the school. You probably wouldn't know he was Christian unless he outright said it, and I can bet you there are many people similar to him across the country. He also comes from an entirely Christian family and went to a Christian elementary school, but he assimilated wonderfully into public life. But I'm sure you have a much better idea of what Christians and religious people are like than me.

It's impossible to prove every religious concept is false? The burden of proof is on your end. Hey how come your buddy God hasn't spoken to anyone in a couple thousand years. How come he has smited any cities or flooded the earth to purge the idol worshippers and sinners?

Why would your God let people be boorn into a remote jungle where his "words" will never reach them, only to be damned to "hell"?

I can prove dinosaurs existed, can you prove God did?

Do you even understand the book you read to adhere to your religion is about 50-100 books short, after a political debate in Rome took place deciding which books would be in the Bible? How do you even know you're reading the right message?


And at Tyche, I know what you're saying. What I'm telling you is religion is a far deadlier and dangerous force than drugs will ever be, ever has been, and are now.

16 year old kids smoking pot don't kill people. A president who thinks he's going to be the one to bring about Armageddon kills people.

[Ivve]

Is it wrong that I get giddy when I see MF Perm has the last post in a topic?

Anyway, I'm not really going to go quoting shit left and right and making a big deal, because I don't care that much. However, I think it's foolish to say that religious teens are not succeptible to peer pressure, or that the only people who apply peer pressure are the non-religious. I'm an athiest, and I waited until marriage to have sex. A close friend of mine is a very religious Christian, and has had not only premarital sex, but an abortion. You can try to generalize, but people are human before they are religious. Nearly everyone has premarital sex, religious or not. Those who do not closely follow the doctrines of the Church are more likely to be prepared for premarital sex by purchasing and using condoms.

[Tyche]

A larger PERCENTAGE of people who follow organized religion are non-violent, and don't try to force their beliefs on anyone. A larger percentage of drug abusers have violent tendencies and more prone to rob/kill. Religion has been followed in mass for thousands of years, of course the number of incidents are far more . Now-a-days, inside the U.S. (can't speak for those extremist muslims ), I would be fairly certain to say more people are killed in the name of cocaine and marijuana than jesus. You are painting such extreme views it's absurd. When you start talking about people regularly fucking children and redeeming themselves in the name of god, you are getting, as I said, a little on the delusional side. Believe it or not, you are correct in saying that most religious followers are hypocritical. You cannot be reasonable and follow every aspect of religion. The same people who have children out of wedlock are the same people who think that you will go to hell for murder. Hell, I'd be willing to say that 90% of mothers and fathers are hypocritical. Just because I go out and have a few beers doesn't mean my 16 year old kid can. Most people do try to balance reason and religion. They aren't all "fucked up psychologically, child raping, stoning women for adultery" radicals.

Yeah, a large percent of people that do drugs are murderers. Are you fucking shitting me? You're like a propaganda sponge. All it takes is a little squeeze and it all comes out.

You are the one that is entirely missing my point and turning it to extremes. And to top it off you take one asinine extreme view and pit it versus another.

Because you're obviously having such a hard time following, I'll point right to it - the base idea of the three largest religions in the world are to obey, persecute, and control. You're so caught up in defense you're missing my entire argument that a belief in something unproven, and law written by man and passed off as divine are damaging to culture, education, self-esteem - and many many many other things. There is no extreme view of that, it's a base fact. Every great scientific and artistic revolution that has occurred in the Western world has occurred in rebellion to the Church and religious thought.

How absolutely fucking amazing is that?

But go ahead and paint my crusade with the same brush as theirs. It's unfortunate that 70% of the worlds population is going to hell. That's a healthy thought. But hey, being a hypocrite and lying to yourself is even better right? Maybe you should understand the definition of "psychological" before you run with a picture of extremism.

I realize you have an opinion on everything, but your personal beliefs are killing your conventional wisdom. Your views are undoubtedly extreme regarding individual followers of religion. My argument this whole time, since you are having a hard time following it, i'll point you right to it, is that your average church goes is a hell of a lot better than a drug addict to themselves and society (I thought this was evident in several posts). I'm sure statistics would support that. If what I bolded in your quote is true (nothing is proven or this conversation wouldnt be happening), I absolutely agree with your point, which is arguing something completely different that what I have been saying the whole time. I'm on page 1, you are on page 175. I'm talking about a singular average church-goer's effect on society, you are depicting organized religions as a whole effect on society with the mindset that it's all false. You have a really hard time of taking out emotion and bias in arguments.

[MF Perm]

MF, are you honestly doing this or are you just trolling?

I'm dead serious, Kuya.

I honestly without a doubt believe the most pressing issue and the root of all misunderstanding and misfortune in the world today is a result of the abuse and organization of religious belief.

[BRP]

Don't even attempt to argue with Perm. It's the greatest waste of time ever, and this is coming from someone who loves to argue. For the sake of this thread and many before and after it, don't argue with Perm.

If you must argue, just go bang your head on brick wall. It's almost exactly the same experience, but with less petty insults.

[Oh real neat, a Killing Ifrit sig]

[Kuya]

MF, are you honestly doing this or are you just trolling?

I'm dead serious, Kuya.

I honestly without a doubt believe the most pressing issue and the root of all misunderstanding and misfortune in the world today is a result of the abuse and organization of religious belief.

Then do you realize you just totaly deviated from the original (and already derailed) point? You're talking about religion in general, when the "subject" was about a single person? You then went off on a tangent making assumptions about the psyche of religious people, and completely ignored wether or not it would be beneficial for this specific individual to instead chose an "addiction" that is less autodestructive.

[Tyche]

Don't even attempt to argue with Perm. It's the greatest waste of time ever, and this is coming from someone who loves to argue. For the sake of this thread and many before and after it, don't argue with Perm.

If you must argue, just go bang your head on brick wall. It's almost exactly the same experience, but with less petty insults.

[Oh real neat, a Killing Ifrit sig]

This topic pushed me, thus far, 50 minutes past my bedtime. Now, MF Perm has made my entire work day tomorrow shitty. I'm heeding your advice and going to bed now.

[Correction]

Peer pressure (which is highly motivated by non-religious people) will account for far more cases of STD spreading and teenage pregnancy than an abstinence only teaching.

Absitinence-only teaching has not stopped the spread of STDs in highly-catholic areas like Latin America. It's easy to say 'if everyone obeyed the teachings of the church we would not have these problems,' but choo-choo here comes the cluetrain, secular sources of identical teachings have similarly failed. Saying 'God says so' does not miraculously turn an ineffective method of contraception into an effective one. Let's say it again: Catholicism is against the best practical way to stop teenagers from having kids and spreading diseases. Your argument is starting to sound like "Well if nobody did drugs we wouldn't have a drug problem."

And as for the 'peer pressure is highly motivated by non-religous people,' I'll be sure to keep that in mind the next time the collection plate comes by in church. For the second time.

Remember folks, teenage pregnancy is all because of religious people who refuse to follow their religious teachings, it has nothing to do with peer pressure, with the idea that you must get laid by at least prom night if you're any sort of a cool person, the thought that being a virgin is unimportant and that sex is now thought of as just "something fun" by todays society, no, it's abstinence only teaching which somehow accounts for every single case of unprotected sex that goes on in America.

Care to rephrase this incomprehensible mess of a sentence?

[MF Perm]

A larger PERCENTAGE of people who follow organized religion are non-violent, and don't try to force their beliefs on anyone. A larger percentage of drug abusers have violent tendencies and more prone to rob/kill. Religion has been followed in mass for thousands of years, of course the number of incidents are far more . Now-a-days, inside the U.S. (can't speak for those extremist muslims ), I would be fairly certain to say more people are killed in the name of cocaine and marijuana than jesus. You are painting such extreme views it's absurd. When you start talking about people regularly fucking children and redeeming themselves in the name of god, you are getting, as I said, a little on the delusional side. Believe it or not, you are correct in saying that most religious followers are hypocritical. You cannot be reasonable and follow every aspect of religion. The same people who have children out of wedlock are the same people who think that you will go to hell for murder. Hell, I'd be willing to say that 90% of mothers and fathers are hypocritical. Just because I go out and have a few beers doesn't mean my 16 year old kid can. Most people do try to balance reason and religion. They aren't all "fucked up psychologically, child raping, stoning women for adultery" radicals.

Yeah, a large percent of people that do drugs are murderers. Are you fucking shitting me? You're like a propaganda sponge. All it takes is a little squeeze and it all comes out.

You are the one that is entirely missing my point and turning it to extremes. And to top it off you take one asinine extreme view and pit it versus another.

Because you're obviously having such a hard time following, I'll point right to it - the base idea of the three largest religions in the world are to obey, persecute, and control. You're so caught up in defense you're missing my entire argument that a belief in something unproven, and law written by man and passed off as divine are damaging to culture, education, self-esteem - and many many many other things. There is no extreme view of that, it's a base fact. Every great scientific and artistic revolution that has occurred in the Western world has occurred in rebellion to the Church and religious thought.

How absolutely fucking amazing is that?

But go ahead and paint my crusade with the same brush as theirs. It's unfortunate that 70% of the worlds population is going to hell. That's a healthy thought. But hey, being a hypocrite and lying to yourself is even better right? Maybe you should understand the definition of "psychological" before you run with a picture of extremism.

I realize you have an opinion on everything, but your personal beliefs are killing your conventional wisdom. Your views are undoubtedly extreme regarding individual followers of religion. My argument this whole time, since you are having a hard time following it, i'll point you right to it, is that your average church goes is a hell of a lot better than a drug addict to themselves and society (I thought this was evident in several posts). I'm sure statistics would support that. If what I bolded in your quote is true (nothing is proven or this conversation wouldnt be happening), I absolutely agree with your point, which is arguing something completely different that what I have been saying the whole time. I'm on page 1, you are on page 175. I'm talking about a singular average church-goer's effect on society, you are depicting organized religions as a whole effect on society with the mindset that it's all false.

This is our disconnect. I am saying that there is no individual in organized religion. Yes, there is an individual with religious belief, but what is the current state of religious belief? It is an organized religious belief. That is the majority.

Because of organized religion the individual loses all the efforts of reason and logic, and it replaces his self-esteem and creates fanaticism.

If someone wants to believe what they want, that is fine by me. I know the average churchgoer doesn't do "bad" things. I know the average churchgoer doesn't have "extreme" views. But I also think mine and your views of what extreme is are different. I think the idea of Hell is extreme. I think the idea that someones sexual preference damning them is extreme. I think that if someone believes different from you, thinking they are damned is extreme. These are base concepts of the three largest religions of the world. These are everyday teachings of the three largest religions of the world.

Religion in the past has shown nothing of itself but to be a crutch for the week, and a bane to the most human aspects of humanity. We are so much better than to follow a book. We are so much better than to follow a person. All of this really pure hope vanishes in the light of faith. It just evaporates, and that breaks my heart.

And I truly think the basic message of religion, all religions, is that there are things we do not understand and we must find them. Not hide them from everyone, and use that power over them to force them in whatever direction we want.

So back to the original argument, there is no difference in trading addictions. "Crazed drug addicts" don't kill people all the time always. Neither do crazed religious fanatics. And yes, drugs have been around since before religion. Except they weren't labelled as drugs then, they weren't illegal. It's not people killing over drugs, it's people killing over zealots in the grasp of religious fervor making "drugs" illegal.

If I can eat broccoli or smoke tobacco, why the fuck can't I snort a poppy seed or smoke a plant?

Drugs don't kill people, religion kills people.

[MF Perm]

MF, are you honestly doing this or are you just trolling?

I'm dead serious, Kuya.

I honestly without a doubt believe the most pressing issue and the root of all misunderstanding and misfortune in the world today is a result of the abuse and organization of religious belief.

Then do you realize you just totaly deviated from the original (and already derailed) point? You're talking about religion in general, when the "subject" was about a single person? You then went off on a tangent making assumptions about the psyche of religious people, and completely ignored wether or not it would be beneficial for this specific individual to instead chose an "addiction" that is less autodestructive.

I don't think it was a deviation from the original point but an evolution of conversation.

Let's replace the word religious with psychotic for fun.

How healthy is it to have someone walking around town who talks to an imaginary person they believe exists based solely on the words of a book, and what people in their personal inner circle adhere to. And on top of that they make up all these rules like you can't eat pigs or have sex.

Remember those little news stories and Unsolved Mysteries about "dangerous cults". How dangerous those people are, the irony being they were talking about a group that deviated from mainstream belief. Then they claim that a group of six people killing homeless people is far worse than an entire nation based on a religion that has with precise consistency murdered, raped, and pillaged people and civilizations that refused to conform.

My entire point that it is very dangerous to replace one coping mechanism with another one. He's not solving the problem he has. 40 more years of mental grief is not greater than or equal to 5 years of physical grief and death.

[MF Perm]

Don't even attempt to argue with Perm. It's the greatest waste of time ever, and this is coming from someone who loves to argue. For the sake of this thread and many before and after it, don't argue with Perm.

If you must argue, just go bang your head on brick wall. It's almost exactly the same experience, but with less petty insults.

[Oh real neat, a Killing Ifrit sig]

BRP's just crying because I chase him out of every thread he tries to bring some half assed argument into. He just wants someone to feel sorry for him when he cries all over a thread, but instead gets repeatedly pushed through the press of pure domination.

BALLIN'

[Ivve]

BALLIN'

I don't even care if you're right or not. Watching you wind people up makes me want to cheer or masturbate furiously or both.

[Kuya]

That would all depend on how HE deals with his new found religious belief. Since you, nor I know him, we can't simply make assumptions on how he'll be from now on. We can logicaly say however, that compared to a life of drugs and excess, religion might offer him some temporary relief.

If you must inssist placing your personal standards on other people, then lets go ahead and say he's choosing the lesser of two evils. From now on it will all depend on how far he takes it. It's all his choice.

[Correction]

If you must inssist placing your personal standards on other people, then lets go ahead and say he's choosing the lesser of two evils. From now on it will all depend on how far he takes it. It's all his choice.

To be fair, that is sort of what the OP was asking for. "Was it good for him to leave Korn, find God and write a book about it?"

Pretty clear that if you answer any way but 'indifferent' strong opinions about finding God are bound to come out, and will come out stronger than the opinions about Korn :D

[Gregorio]

Don't even attempt to argue with Perm. It's the greatest waste of time ever, and this is coming from someone who loves to argue. For the sake of this thread and many before and after it, don't argue with Perm.

If you must argue, just go bang your head on brick wall. It's almost exactly the same experience, but with less petty insults.

[Oh real neat, a Killing Ifrit sig]

After engaging in a few "debates" with him, I'd say you're pretty much dead on accurate.

Once he gets all riled up and starts whipping out the insults and ranting for no apparant reason, you know the thread is over.

[Devek]

So.. religion is a crutch for the weak, but sex and drugs are not.

Another night on /bg/, where no one is personally responsible for their actions

I bet Chris Benoit killed his family cause the Bible told him so.

[Kuya]

If you must inssist placing your personal standards on other people, then lets go ahead and say he's choosing the lesser of two evils. From now on it will all depend on how far he takes it. It's all his choice.

To be fair, that is sort of what the OP was asking for. "Was it good for him to leave Korn, find God and write a book about it?"

Pretty clear that if you answer any way but 'indifferent' strong opinions about finding God are bound to come out, and will come out stronger than the opinions about Korn :D

What OP? He had a question? Was he lost in the Whirlwind of Derail of the long long ago?

[Ivve]

Don't even attempt to argue with Perm. It's the greatest waste of time ever, and this is coming from someone who loves to argue. For the sake of this thread and many before and after it, don't argue with Perm.

If you must argue, just go bang your head on brick wall. It's almost exactly the same experience, but with less petty insults.

[Oh real neat, a Killing Ifrit sig]

After engaging in a few "debates" with him, I'd say you're pretty much dead on accurate.

Once he gets all riled up and starts whipping out the insults and ranting for no apparant reason, you know the thread is over.

And yet, people keep responding 95% of the time! It's fucking beautiful.

[MF Perm]

That would all depend on how HE deals with his new found religious belief. Since you, nor I know him, we can't simply make assumptions on how he'll be from now on. We can logicaly say however, that compared to a life of drugs and excess, religion might offer him some temporary relief.

If you must inssist placing your personal standards on other people, then lets go ahead and say he's choosing the lesser of two evils. From now on it will all depend on how far he takes it. It's all his choice.

I never made one remark on the person he was or was going to be due to his decisions. All I said was he traded one negative addiction for another. I was asked to splain Lucy so I splained.

The thread turned into on one hand arguing my insight against an institution, and another on the value of one addiction versus another and the opinion of relative danger in each.


@Devek: Sex is not a crutch, it's a natural action that is the reason for anything living from the plants to the trees and the birds to the bees. It can be ( a crutch ), but on it's own it is not. The same goes for drugs, the same goes for spiritual belief. Organized religion is an abuse of the latter, and it becomes a crutch to cope with a lack of self-esteem among other issues as the same can happen with drugs and sex. But the basis of all three, there is nothing wrong with.



@Ivve: <3



@Gregario: im building a diving board to match your pool of cry moar. HE'S SWIMMIN NIGGA HE'S SWIMMING OH MY GAWD HE'S SWIMMIN