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It's not about what is acceptable or unacceptable; it's about whether you're gaining something by using traditional PTs over SMN burns. You forget that 1-74 you gain familiarity with your macros for everything but Utsu Ni. Case and point, asserting that smart people automatically play well at 75 is to suggest that intellect and physical capacity are one in the same. Since we know they are not (Think of someone who is a fan, but does not play a sport), it's easily deduced that maybe not every smart player will play their 75 well without getting some experience (Refers to what I initially responded to).Originally Posted by Tsuko_Asura
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2009-09-17 23:30 #1261An exploitable mess of a card game
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2009-09-18 02:46 #1262Nidhogg
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Did you really just respond to my 1 example I bothered typing, and ignore the rest of the post? Dunno why I bother including an example at all. But really, you think replacing the macro is the solution? You think the problem is they reflexively hit alt+3 or whatever, not that they think "I need shadows, I should cast Ichi, and save Ni for when I'm being hit later". Yet really, they have no idea how soon they will be hit, what their Ni cooldown is with their lvl 75 gear that actually has haste (and double marches) is, etc. It may even be right in that 74>75 party to cast Ichi, because they prob have shit accuracy, are getting madrigal+minuet (or don't have a bard), and have little to no haste. Originally Posted by Yugl
My entire point is that THE GAME CHANGES AT 75. What you do in an exp party may work in an exp party, and is 100% invalid at 75. If you'd actually think about it for half a second, instead of responding only to a single example I have trying to illustrate a point, you'd realize what you are arguing is inane at the moment. Normally, I respect a lot of your posts because it seems like you think them through. I don't think you've actually thought through a single reply in the last page of this thread.
Familiarity with macros is the -only- thing you gain while leveling. Congratulations, the guy that didn't summoner burn knows that Ctrl+3 is his refresh key, and Ctrl+2 is haste. The guy that summoner burned...oh well, he probably knows where he put his macros too. Originally Posted by Yugl
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2009-09-18 02:53 #1263bruiceGuestThat made me chuckle harder then it should have :S Originally Posted by FailureMidgard
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2009-09-18 04:52 #1264Every day I'm wafflin'
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I'm only going to bother to respond to this one point you brought up because I'm low on time and, well, the other points could be argued back and forth endlessly.
Maybe I just don't read enough, but I've never really seen anything to indicate that Richardd is particularly special. His popularity, from what I can see, stems from the fact that he has a perpetually positive attitude towards regulars here and certainly isn't clueless when it comes to playing FFXI - two attributes that seldom go hand-in-hand on BG. All I've seen as an indication of his aptitude is some second-hand testimony (the subject of which I don't recall, because it wasn't anything ground-breaking) and some pretty screenshots of him tanking endgame mobs on his NIN. Someone recently brought this up with me on MSN, specifically "Why is Richardd so popular? I've never seen him actually do anything other than ride on others' coattails", and I know that point has been made in public before as well. Perhaps I'm very much mistaken, but from the little I've seen of him I have no doubt that, given the opportunity to play his NIN, I could do so just as adeptly as he does. Again, that isn't a slant on his playing skill, but a comment on the simplicity of the game in general.So if someone like Kaeko or Richarrd (However he spells it) gave you their BLM/SCH/NIN account, you would be able to solo/tank NMs better than them?
As for Kaeko, that's a different kettle of fish. Note that this isn't intended to bash him in any way, but you did ask me the question so I think I should answer honestly. Outside of a couple of PMs and a recent conversation I don't actually know him at all, and I certainly never played with him so I can't speak about his playstyle first-hand. I'm certain he's very competent, though. But personally, I always admired him because of the fact that he takes initiative, devises strategies for stuff no one thought of before, goes into the mathematics of his undertakings in-depth, and basically goes out and tries stuff - it's not his apparent playing "skill" that's ever been the impressive trait for me, not that I have any right to comment on it as if I have first-hand experience. It always annoyed me (as I'm sure it did most others) when people spouted things like he's "the best BLM in the game" or similar sweeping statements. He stated back when his blog first started getting attention (I think in the NW Apollyon entry) that his BLM didn't even have capped merits, and someone on Odin mentioned a long time ago that they used to see him soloing Zhayolm's Ebony Puddings in AFv2 hat - something most good BLMs understood to be bad practice even a few years ago. Anyway, I'm fairly certain that my old BLM was "better" than his.
Of course, I'm not trying to equate gear and merits with skill; for some reason I felt this was the appropriate place to make those points, even if it's not completely related to what we're actually talking about. I was, however, trying to emphasize the point that it's not Kaeko's playing skill, but rather his initiative and willingness to push boundaries, that deserves credit. Do I think I could devise, test and successfully pull off strategies the way he does? Certainly not. Do I think that, given the same tools as are available to him, I could emulate what he actually does in-game? Probably; I've already done so in the past on my own character, and I'm sure a heck of a lot of people could say the same. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of FFXI god - what I'm saying about myself applies to all the smart players out there.
Even if your argument held true (i.e. I could never hope to match the "skill" of the two individuals you mentioned) it'd mean nothing anyway - picking those two examples out of hundreds of thousands of players doesn't in any way invalidate my original point.
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2009-09-18 07:22 #1265My Dorito-Wyvern and I were wondering if there is any room for a party dragoon.
Ive got kool-aid and whiskey!
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So I've got my flag up on my Mithra and all of a sudden..
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../Huffhuff3.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../huffhuff1.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../huffhuff2.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../Huffhuff5.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../Huffhuff4.jpg
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2009-09-18 07:34 #1266Chram
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Awesome. 10/10
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2009-09-18 08:34 #1267Yoshi P
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LOL, that's so awesome.
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2009-09-18 10:26 #1268Salvage Bans
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You mean to tell me you made a new account just to post that retard crap? dedicated troll..
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2009-09-18 11:14 #1269
FUCK 2PAC was better when Rocl told it.
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2009-09-18 11:16 #1270Relic Horn
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would've been fitting, just needs some funny in it Originally Posted by 2PacGuy
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2009-09-18 11:24 #1271Relic Horn
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Last night I did a Nyzul Isle 100 run and our whm force d/c in the middle of the fight. We died from petrification. He forced d/c when the boss was at like 50%.
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2009-09-18 11:57 #1272assburgers
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I love MM.
They're my favorite random newbie with low post count.
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2009-09-18 12:55 #1273Banned.
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The picture of everyone swinging scythes, massive swords, and rapiers at a little bird almost made me cry from laughter.
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2009-09-18 17:52 #1274Every day I'm wafflin'
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Yeah except it's clearly someone's humorous alt. Originally Posted by Max™
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2009-09-18 18:34 #1275The 69th Donor
Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!
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MM used to troll our application forums. I miss those days.
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2009-09-18 19:24 #1276An exploitable mess of a card game
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First, I responded specifically to your example because it shows that there are instant means of dealing with bad habits leveling up. Gaining familiarity, regardless of how "good" you are is not something you can fix in one macro change. Originally Posted by FailureMidgard
Second, how in the world is leveling the normal way going to instill the Ichi instead of Ni pretense when you don't even have access to Ni! If it's a problem with your instinctively hitting your Ichi macro, then do as I mentioned and replace the Ichi macro with Ni. Problem solved.
Moreover, your point only demonstrates that you're acting from a very biased perspective. If two players that are equal in every way except their means of XPing reach 75, why is it that the person who didn't SMN burn would believe Ichi instead of Ni and not the other person as well? Your example makes no sense because if they're both good players (And we're assuming they both are, otherwise it's skewed), then they would both realize the proper manner of dealing with shadows. The only argument you can make is that the non-SMN burn person would instinctively hit their Ichi macro; however, I already gave an instant remedy to that problem. In fact, the person who didn't SMN burn would be closer to instinctively hitting the Ni macro since he spends 40k XP using it.
And the great part about this is that since we're assuming these are two good players, this individual will know when Ni comes ahead of Ichi and make sure to do it when the time comes. The only problem is that he'll reflexively hit his Ichi macro when he needs shadows. The solution? Replace the macro with Ni. There you go.Yet really, they have no idea how soon they will be hit, what their Ni cooldown is with their lvl 75 gear that actually has haste (and double marches) is, etc. It may even be right in that 74>75 party to cast Ichi, because they prob have shit accuracy, are getting madrigal+minuet (or don't have a bard), and have little to no haste.
Yes the game does change at 75 and you won't come to 75 equipped with every skill upon reaching 75. However, to suggest that there's nothing to be gained from not SMN burning and to suggest that the person who doesn't SMN burn doesn't have an initial advantage over the SMN burn character is an inane remark in itself. Hence, why I responded to drwaffles on those grounds. Do not misunderstand my point. Throughout this discussion I've not said that traditional PTs will make one 75 better than another 75 permanently. I said that it will provide an initial advantage over someone who will need to train a bit before they get the general grasp. I supplemented this comment later on by stating that no matter how smart you are, some classes take a bit of experience in order to familiarize yourself with certain actions and situations. Will you take up bad habits on the way? Perhaps, but the advantage you gain as I see it, far outweigh the *nothing* this SMN burn person has as soon as each reaches 75.My entire point is that THE GAME CHANGES AT 75. What you do in an exp party may work in an exp party, and is 100% invalid at 75. If you'd actually think about it for half a second, instead of responding only to a single example I have trying to illustrate a point, you'd realize what you are arguing is inane at the moment. Normally, I respect a lot of your posts because it seems like you think them through. I don't think you've actually thought through a single reply in the last page of this thread.
Originally Posted by Yugl
Depends on the complexity of your macros. I've spent hours on excel for SCH macros since I play the PS2 version, so I have to make sure that no matter which macro "path" I take, I know that the gear I need is equipped when casting. With that said, my macro has many components and without fully understanding what is where, you're going to have a difficult time using it effectively. By effectively, I really mean quickly since you have to be spot on for many solo situations. And yes your assumption may be correct: I did have to practice with my macros before I could truly master them.Familiarity with macros is the -only- thing you gain while leveling. Congratulations, the guy that didn't summoner burn knows that Ctrl+3 is his refresh key, and Ctrl+2 is haste. The guy that summoner burned...oh well, he probably knows where he put his macros too.
I heard about him solo tanking Odin on NIN (And I think duo tanking on SAM?). I doubt most people are quite that capable in this game, even if it does heavily depend on your support. Intellect won't save you if you're too unfamiliar with the situation to react when necessary (Accounting for situations where you don't have "think" time). Originally Posted by drwaffles
Not sure if you're tried every one of his solos, but I find that many of them take soloing intuitiveness. In other words, unless you're familiar with the context in which you're playing, you'll have difficulties with some of these solos.As for Kaeko, that's a different kettle of fish. Note that this isn't intended to bash him in any way, but you did ask me the question so I think I should answer honestly. Outside of a couple of PMs and a recent conversation I don't actually know him at all, and I certainly never played with him so I can't speak about his playstyle first-hand. I'm certain he's very competent, though. But personally, I always admired him because of the fact that he takes initiative, devises strategies for stuff no one thought of before, goes into the mathematics of his undertakings in-depth, and basically goes out and tries stuff - it's not his apparent playing "skill" that's ever been the impressive trait for me, not that I have any right to comment on it as if I have first-hand experience. It always annoyed me (as I'm sure it did most others) when people spouted things like he's "the best BLM in the game" or similar sweeping statements. He stated back when his blog first started getting attention (I think in the NW Apollyon entry) that his BLM didn't even have capped merits, and someone on Odin mentioned a long time ago that they used to see him soloing Zhayolm's Ebony Puddings in AFv2 hat - something most good BLMs understood to be bad practice even a few years ago. Anyway, I'm fairly certain that my old BLM was "better" than his.
Of course, I'm not trying to equate gear and merits with skill; for some reason I felt this was the appropriate place to make those points, even if it's not completely related to what we're actually talking about. I was, however, trying to emphasize the point that it's not Kaeko's playing skill, but rather his initiative and willingness to push boundaries, that deserves credit. Do I think I could devise, test and successfully pull off strategies the way he does? Certainly not. Do I think that, given the same tools as are available to him, I could emulate what he actually does in-game? Probably; I've already done so in the past on my own character, and I'm sure a heck of a lot of people could say the same. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of FFXI god - what I'm saying about myself applies to all the smart players out there.
It actually does since it suggests that you (Who you submit is a smart player) cannot make the same achievements as another player because of differences in experience.Even if your argument held true (i.e. I could never hope to match the "skill" of the two individuals you mentioned) it'd mean nothing anyway - picking those two examples out of hundreds of thousands of players doesn't in any way invalidate my original point.
Another question I would like to pose to those who disagree with the idea of initial experience:
Are you suggesting that someone who reads up on a difficult event will perform the exact same way he or she did the first time as he does the 100th time? Do you not gain anything through experience with an event if you've been supplied the information beforehand?
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2009-09-18 22:17 #1277My Dorito-Wyvern and I were wondering if there is any room for a party dragoon.
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It could happen again. Maybe it happened yesterday in the Screenshots/Videos section and you just haven't seen it yet. Originally Posted by Aksannyi
Just maybe..
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2009-09-18 23:21 #1278The Syrup To Waffles's Waffle
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His point is that if you know the game well enough... you know this and are most likely rather competent at doing this as well. This game is not difficult. Being reactive and responding to information and scenarios is not difficult by any means, it simply takes practice - practice generally of a different variety offered in parties 1-75. The only benefit that is gained by grinding through parties is familiarizing yourself with the job's abilities, gear, roles, etc. over a longer period of time which is only actually necessary if you are a rather slow learner. Originally Posted by Yugl
That's not to say I'd be my best if I jumped on my SCH75 the first time after SMN brning it even though I had put time into researching it, because I'm sure I wasn't. I brought it to Dynamis to familiarize myself with my macros and the job and was fine with it from then on.
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2009-09-19 03:50 #1279Every day I'm wafflin'
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You basically debunked your own point - how well you tank something often depends not on your own performance, but on the performance of your support (especially your WHM). I know this for a fact as I've played WHM multiple times for damn near everything in this game on two characters, and it's pretty clear that if I wasn't as prepared and focused as I am it'd be a hell of a lot harder for the tank(s) to do their job(s) properly. That's not to say it's not impressive on a level, but I still wouldn't consider it an achievement that can be attributed solely to him in any way.I heard about him solo tanking Odin on NIN (And I think duo tanking on SAM?). I doubt most people are quite that capable in this game, even if it does heavily depend on your support. Intellect won't save you if you're too unfamiliar with the situation to react when necessary (Accounting for situations where you don't have "think" time).
Funnily enough richardd sent me a PM last night explaining how he never perpetuated this image of himself, which is what I said in the first place - it's a case of other people looking at his shiny screenshots and listening to him give sound (albeit not ground-breaking) advice on these forums.
That's my entire point - reading shit before you charge head-on into something in order to familiarize yourself with the situation so that you can be prepared is what gives myself and others the ability to emulate what some people have been doing for years within the space of a few days of hitting 75 via SMN burn. This "soloing genius" mentality is exactly how Avesta rose to infamy, when in actual fact most of what he does isn't that difficult, nor is he particularly masterful in the first place.Not sure if you're tried every one of his solos, but I find that many of them take soloing intuitiveness. In other words, unless you're familiar with the context in which you're playing, you'll have difficulties with some of these solos.
This is what I've been saying all along about people like Kaeko, Avesta, Gold, Vox and other famous pioneers of soloing - it's never been the execution that's impressive. Anyone who's been out and done what they did will be able to tell you that. What they deserve credit for (and I mean thoroughly) is having the balls to decide they're going to be the first to try something and then going and doing it. Would you ever have thought of soloing Seiryu or Suzaku back when they were first done? Or using /PUP in order to facilitate the first ever "true" Ash Dragon solo? Or soloing an entire Limbus/Salvage zone? I doubt it. That inventiveness and, you might well say, "solo intuition" is what makes them worthy of recognition.
So yes, I don't think there should be any dispute over whether or not people can manage to replicate the performances of others given a good innate ability to process information, adequate prior experience simply playing the game fullstop regardless of what job it's on, and a link to FFXIclopedia. I think this whole idea of putting people up on pedastals for entirely the wrong reasons needs to end now... we were getting there with Avesta once people realized his two main strategies (which likely weren't "his" to begin with) are highly imitable and applicable to a huge number of NMs.
And just for the record, I have solo'd NW Apollyon and also quite a few of the more difficult RDM/NIN-only NMs. I also recently attempted an LBC duo with my friend who needs a Bodb's Robe, and although we weren't successful due to our limited job options we did find the kiting strategy to be much more easily executable than we had anticipated.
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2009-09-19 04:20 #1280Ridill
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Dou LBC? Do you just rapido it or is there actual kiting involved.
