Overcamping and stealing camps, the new life of merits

[Talisien]

This thread actually made me laugh out loud yesterday on my commute home from work.

Boring story short I work in NYC and take the over-crowded subway home each night, usually pissed, annoyed, and really wanting to get my FF fix in. Last night was especially fun as I had my very first Dynamis run and I really wanted to be home.

So I get out of the subway and see the stairs. For anyone familiar with the 4/5/6 line in NYC it is a wide staircase that comfortably fits 4 people abreast. Typically in rush hour people going down the stairs will hug the right wall and the middle-right wall, sort of like the below picture (left direction = down, right direction=up):

<<<<<<<< A
>>>>>>>> B
DIVIDER||||
<<<<<<<< C
>>>>>>>> D

So in our story I will illustrate myself as T staring up an empty down-lane while people shuffle slowly by me:

T(o.o)!(--->)
>>>>>>>>>>
DIVIDER|||||
<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>

I think to myself, "Great, I will now sprint up the stairs, bypass this traffic, and be home even faster, yes!" Instead, this happens:

T!\/Grandma-->!(WTF)<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>
||||||||||||
<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>

I was cut off by a Granny in a walker who proceeded to very slowly walk up the down-lane cutting off all traffic down and generally creating a huge mess. As I slowly shoved myself into the up lane:

>Grandma-->!(WTF)\/<<<<<
>>>T(x.x)>>>>!<<<<<<
|||||||||||
<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>

This thread immediately popped into my head. Imagine, I thought to myself, how much more use I would've gotten out of the empty down-lane. I would've used it quickly, efficiently, and gained a huge benefit out of it. Now it is being wasted by this grandma, who is causing the people at the top to wait, and the people next to her to have to walk slower to avoid her. In short, a prime piece of real estate had been wasted because she had gotten there first, just like those awesome camps are wasted by dumb groups who got there first.

I didn't shove the grandma down not because I would get arrested, but because I'm a decent human being.

The moral of this story is:

Just because you can use something better, doesn't mean you are entitled to it. Those XP camps are there for everyone, not just the 25k/hr guys sprinting up the stairs, they're also there for PLD BLM groups that can't imagine what it's like to hit 75 on their first job (grandma).

-Talisien

[Septimus]

The moral of this story is:

Just because you can use something better, doesn't mean you are entitled to it. Those XP camps are there for everyone, not just the 25k/hr guys sprinting up the stairs, they're also there for PLD BLM groups that can't imagine what it's like to hit 75 on their first job (grandma).

-Talisien

And if Granny had used the escalator or elevator everyone would have gotten to their destination a lot faster...

[Talisien]

If Granny were dead I'd have been home faster too. Granny could've been anywhere but at that exact moment she was in front of me.

I won't kill her.
I shouldn't shove her aside.

The point is those random noob groups could be anywhere, they could be in Besieged, or Bibiki Bay, or anywhere else, but at the moment you care about them, it's because they're right in front of you, stealing your mobs. And at *that* point, you shouldn't do more than shove yourself into the slow(er) lane. You have no right to do anything else.

edit: My point is simply entitlement. The stairs do not exist for the slow people, or the fast people -- they exist for everyone. And I have no right to shove aside a slower person just because I am faster and am freeing up those stairs for the down people faster. She *should* use the escalator, I agree, but she has as much right to those stairs as anyone else.

edit: Stairs = xp camps for the cliff notes people. And I don't think we have an escalator yet, but I guess you could call them manaburns if you were talking about BLMs.

[Septimus]

If Granny were dead I'd have been home faster too. Granny could've been anywhere but at that exact moment she was in front of me.

I won't kill her.
I shouldn't shove her aside.

The point is those random noob groups could be anywhere, they could be in Besieged, or Bibiki Bay, or anywhere else, but at the moment you care about them, it's because they're right in front of you, stealing your mobs. And at *that* point, you shouldn't do more than shove yourself into the slow(er) lane. You have no right to do anything else.

edit: My point is simply entitlement. The stairs do not exist for the slow people, or the fast people -- they exist for everyone. And I have no right to shove aside a slower person just because I am faster and am freeing up those stairs for the down people faster. She *should* use the escalator, I agree, but she has as much right to those stairs as anyone else.

edit: Stairs = xp camps for the cliff notes people. And I don't think we have an escalator yet, but I guess you could call them manaburns if you were talking about BLMs.

No, shoving or worse will get you home slower since you will be arrested. My point is that there exist people who enjoy ruining things for other people. It makes them happy to know that someone else is inconvenienced by their actions. In your story, maybe you don't have escalators and elevators in the subway stations in New York (they have them in the stations in Pittsburgh, and this is Pittsburgh), but if you do have them up there, she did it for the sole purpose of pissing everyone else off. Granny knows damn well that she's wrecking the place for everyone, but she does it for the thrill of it. She probably pays for things in the express lane with pennies also. Just like people who move on top of a camp- they could go elsewhere and not ruin someone's XP, but they do it because they are jerks. They think that they are entitled as well, what makes them any better than a party that will actually get full use out of a camp?

[Naygor]

If you suck, you deserve to be forced out of a good meripo camp. If not, other people shouldn't be stealing said camp if you were there first.

[Deelo]

If you suck, you deserve to be forced out of a good meripo camp. If not, other people shouldn't be stealing said camp if you were there first.

This post just ended the thread (imo). Well said.

[Talisien]

If Granny were dead I'd have been home faster too. Granny could've been anywhere but at that exact moment she was in front of me.

I won't kill her.
I shouldn't shove her aside.

The point is those random noob groups could be anywhere, they could be in Besieged, or Bibiki Bay, or anywhere else, but at the moment you care about them, it's because they're right in front of you, stealing your mobs. And at *that* point, you shouldn't do more than shove yourself into the slow(er) lane. You have no right to do anything else.

edit: My point is simply entitlement. The stairs do not exist for the slow people, or the fast people -- they exist for everyone. And I have no right to shove aside a slower person just because I am faster and am freeing up those stairs for the down people faster. She *should* use the escalator, I agree, but she has as much right to those stairs as anyone else.

edit: Stairs = xp camps for the cliff notes people. And I don't think we have an escalator yet, but I guess you could call them manaburns if you were talking about BLMs.

No, shoving or worse will get you home slower since you will be arrested. My point is that there exist people who enjoy ruining things for other people. It makes them happy to know that someone else is inconvenienced by their actions. In your story, maybe you don't have escalators and elevators in the subway stations in New York (they have them in the stations in Pittsburgh, and this is Pittsburgh), but if you do have them up there, she did it for the sole purpose of pissing everyone else off. Granny knows damn well that she's wrecking the place for everyone, but she does it for the thrill of it. She probably pays for things in the express lane with pennies also. Just like people who move on top of a camp- they could go elsewhere and not ruin someone's XP, but they do it because they are jerks. They think that they are entitled as well, what makes them any better than a party that will actually get full use out of a camp?

You're overcomplicating the issue and making greys out of black and white. The refute to the entitlement argument is very simple, to continue the metaphor a little longer:

Stairs exist to be climbed in order to gain access to the floor above or below.

Granny is using the stairs.

Monsters exist to be killed to gain xp in order to level up.

Party is killing monsters for xp.

Motivation aside (assume EVERYONE's motivation is self-serving, because it is a constant), you cannot argue that someone is in the wrong for using the stairs inefficiently. Granny was moving slow but she wasn't crawling on her hands and knees either. She was using the stairs.

Ditto for xp. You cannot argue with someone that they're killing monsters and getting 90xp when you would get 230 for the same monster (due to your chain bonus). Yes you'd get more value but that doesn't make you more entitled.

K the not so simple version:

This is Kant's 2nd Principle in action --

"You cannot treat a person simply as a means to end, but rather, must treat each person as an end in and of themselves."

As an example, you cannot fire someone from a company to increase your profits, but you CAN discuss with them why you are telling them to leave the company and then issue their termination.

In the same vein you can discuss with someone how they are ruining your xp and getting little for themselves, but you cannot simply hurl insults or attempt to force lesser players out of your path to gain more xp for yourself. That is immoral.

In the end, it doesn't matter if Granny is getting a sick twisted thrill out of going slower than everyone else, she is entitled to use those stairs for their purpose -- that is why they exist, to be used. Ditto monsters, they exist to be killed, and if a player is killing them, they are well within their rights.

Note that this argument does NOT work for driving slower in the passing line of a highway. Why? Because the purpose of the passing lane (the left most lane) on a highway is to pass other slower cars. If you drive slow in the passing lane you WILL be arrested, and for good reason, you are not using the lane for its purpose and disrupting other drivers as a result. If SE made a passing lane (like a Rank 6 required zone full of xp mobs for instance, as mentioned earlier in the thread), you'd be well within your rights to call a GM on a party without Rank 6.

Again the point is, if you are depriving someone else of their freedom to act, you have acted immorally. You cannot deprive someone of their use of the stairs simply because they walk slow, they are still free to use the stairs. And you cannot prevent someone from killing mobs (or attempt to through threat of force) because they are depriving you of chain 200.

[aurik]

tl;dr, cliffs notes plz and get the fuck out of my merit camp

[Septimus]

Again the point is, if you are depriving someone else of their freedom to act, you have acted immorally. You cannot deprive someone of their use of the stairs simply because they walk slow, they are still free to use the stairs. And you cannot prevent someone from killing mobs (or attempt to through threat of force) because they are depriving you of chain 200.

But it is OK for someone else to deprive me of my freedoms? It is wrong to expect someone who walks slowly to use an escalator or elevator during rush hour so everyone can get home in a timely fashion? It is fine for a gimp party to move in and camp on top of a non-gimp party to deprive them of their chain 200?

[Jeryhn]

Never really had a problem with people trying to push me out of a camp, even if they were in my own LS. Just Diaga their shit and watch 'em go to town, continue to pelt little spells on their mobs when they try Provoking or whatever to keep the mob white, which keeps them voking and losing shadows, which keep the mob I just DoT'd off me.

People eventually wise up and just gtfo my camp.

[Agi]

lots of stuff about grannys walking slow to exp camps

the stairs are meant to be used, so granny can use them sure. but while she does she is keeping me from using those very same stairs that are supposed to be used!

OH NOES CHICKEN OR THE EGG?

i don't even really know whats going on here, its been a funny derail. personally i won't camp on top of other parties, but if someone else comes on top of me blablabla more things about good pts being to outpull the slower ones blablabla

but if someone else comes on top of me

did i really just type that

[Khamsin]

If granny is walking slowly up the stairs and my party of big burly warriors can just pick her up and hurl her down the steps, breaking her hip, then so be it. We've got merits to make, and we're even doing everyone else a favor since granny can't get back on the steps with a broken hip. She'll be ok, she has that "Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!" button on her.

[riddaraan]

I really hadn't been subject to this thread's topic until the other day, when I was meritting out on Colibri. We were well into our 200 chain, when out of nowhere a horrible looking PT comprised mostly of EU players (racism aside, all I could think was, "Great."). They showed up and stood around watching us kill for about 3 minutes before the DRK in the PT admitted he couldn't convince his PT to go anywhere else...

(EU DRK) Hey guys, I'm sure we can out camp these guys, let's stay.

That's my supposition on him convincing his PT to move.

This PT was made of about as much fail as possible, with the only notable person, a BRD in Sha'ir Manteel. The rest of the PT was comprised of a huge pile of AF.

Within about 2 minutes, our Chain 215+ was killed, because neither of our BRD's could get a claim fast enough. Does this mean we were muscled out? Or just inconvenienced by the inconsiderate retards?

Anyway, it really ticked me off, to no end. Being pissed off, we kept trying to fight for mobs for about 30 minutes, but eventually just left.

[Khamsin]

Within about 2 minutes, our Chain 215+ was killed, because neither of our BRD's could get a claim fast enough. Does this mean we were muscled out? Or just inconvenienced by the inconsiderate retards?

Well...

Anyway, it really ticked me off, to no end. Being pissed off, we kept trying to fight for mobs for about 30 minutes, but eventually just left.

...means you were muscled out.

Had you stayed and kept them from getting any claims, causing them to leave in frustration, then you'd have muscled them out.

No matter how much pixelated muscle you think you have, in the end, one party stays and one leaves. The party that stays muscled the other party out.

[Septimus]

Within about 2 minutes, our Chain 215+ was killed, because neither of our BRD's could get a claim fast enough. Does this mean we were muscled out? Or just inconvenienced by the inconsiderate retards?

Well...

Anyway, it really ticked me off, to no end. Being pissed off, we kept trying to fight for mobs for about 30 minutes, but eventually just left.

...means you were muscled out.

Had you stayed and kept them from getting any claims, causing them to leave in frustration, then you'd have muscled them out.

No matter how much pixelated muscle you think you have, in the end, one party stays and one leaves. The party that stays muscled the other party out.

No, they weren't muscled out, they were gimped out.

[riddaraan]

The main reason we couldn't get consistant claims on mobs was because we had no ability claims, and their NIN was sub WAR, and their DRG of course, just jumped on shit. All we had for long range claiming tools were spells, such as Elegy, and Flash.

[Khamsin]

Within about 2 minutes, our Chain 215+ was killed, because neither of our BRD's could get a claim fast enough. Does this mean we were muscled out? Or just inconvenienced by the inconsiderate retards?

Well...

Anyway, it really ticked me off, to no end. Being pissed off, we kept trying to fight for mobs for about 30 minutes, but eventually just left.

...means you were muscled out.

Had you stayed and kept them from getting any claims, causing them to leave in frustration, then you'd have muscled them out.

No matter how much pixelated muscle you think you have, in the end, one party stays and one leaves. The party that stays muscled the other party out.

No, they weren't muscled out, they were gimped out.

He left because they couldn't win any pulls. If they had left simply because the mobs ran out and they had to wait for repops, and overall the xp was just shitty and slow, that's one thing. Since they left because the other party was killing mobs quickly and winning all the pulls, thereby preventing them from having anything to fight, then that means they were muscled out. It's the same thing that happens when a ridill blueberk PT overruns a PLD, DRG, PUP, BLM, WHM, SMN PT that does SC+MBs.

[layoneil]

the stairs are meant to be used, so granny can use them sure. but while she does she is keeping me from using those very same stairs that are supposed to be used!

OH NOES CHICKEN OR THE EGG?

if she's in front of you on the stairs, than she came first, otherwise you'd be in front of her and she wouldn't affect you. you're trying to make this into a what came first question when it's obvious what/who came first.

But it is OK for someone else to deprive me of my freedoms? It is wrong to expect someone who walks slowly to use an escalator or elevator during rush hour so everyone can get home in a timely fashion?

no escalators or elevators in more than 50% of NY subway stations, and escalators make no difference, people who can run up escalators also make use of them more efficiently.

It is fine for a gimp party to move in and camp on top of a non-gimp party to deprive them of their chain 200?

if this is your example, than you're arguing about 2 different things. the question is, when if ever is it fine for a 2nd party to move in when there's already a party there? your example implies that a chain 200 already exists, the real example is that a chain 200 can exist but another party is already there preventing it from happening.

[Xiona]

overcamping and camping on other parties is like taking the remote to your TV and smashing it with a hammer. the TV still works but you now have to get up to change the channels. why anyone would want to move to a camp to get mediocre xp in the hopes the other party moves. ive had it happen an lot and every time noone leaves, we all just continue to get shitty xp haha.

[Rocl]

You're [...] making greys out of black and white

GREY? OUT OF BLACK AND WHITE? OH NO!