Kirin tests on Merited PUP

[Jkun]

You know, a good geared PUP (Not super duper Salvage gear) but in AF/Assault/Sea gear actually hits quite well according to my little Sky runs on PUP. Don't be scared or embarrassed to try it out.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

i like how you do not melee. =D>

lol, yeah. Probably would have had a higher overall damage output and a smoother/faster fight if he had. It's a shame how many PUPs just stand back rather than properly gearing up and contributing the other half of their damage potential.

On Kirin theres no chance in hell a PUP's h2h could contribute worthwhile enough damage to be in range of AoEs.

What this shows me is that there is potential, with some tweaking I could see PUP being (gasp) good!

[Toth]

Barring having full usukane, a PUP will never do enough damage to Kirin to be worth dividing your time from maintaining your manuevers. Even with tons of accuracy gear and sushi, I rarely make a significant dent on him meleeing.

[Genosync]

Isnt a merited Pup called a dragoon? i may be mistaken...

seriously, get the fuck out until you know what you're talking about.

tired of people comparing puppetmaster to dragoon.

[FinalJustice]

Honestly because of the ridiculous idea for SE to give Pup almost exclusively MP gear... serious hampers the Masters dmg output. The gear choice just makes no sense to me. For solo bst, and even brds, i can see why thy gave them access to MP gear... but for Pup ill never understand. So i think because of SE's choice we will never see what a master can really do, until we see a pup in a Full salvage set...
I wish more ppl did salvage

[solsovly]

Honestly because of the ridiculous idea for SE to give Pup almost exclusively MP gear... serious hampers the Masters dmg output. The gear choice just makes no sense to me. For solo bst, and even brds, i can see why thy gave them access to MP gear... but for Pup ill never understand. So i think because of SE's choice we will never see what a master can really do, until we see a pup in a Full salvage set...
I wish more ppl did salvage

They should atleast give PUP the ability to rest without resting the automation. The puppet can continue to attack while the master rests MP for support. Or they could you know, give them better gear.

[Skeetaru]

Isnt a merited Pup called a dragoon? i may be mistaken...

seriously, get the fuck out until you know what you're talking about.

tired of people comparing puppetmaster to dragoon.

Lol touchy are we? Its an easily comparison because one replaced the other as the laughing stock/pariyah of ffxi. You gtfo.

[Toth]

I wish more ppl did salvage

2/3 Usukane legs
1/3 Usukane hands
1/3 Usukane body

So far

[Sho]

Isnt a merited Pup called a dragoon? i may be mistaken...

seriously, get the fuck out until you know what you're talking about.

tired of people comparing puppetmaster to dragoon.

Lol touchy are we? Its an easily comparison because one replaced the other as the laughing stock/pariyah of ffxi. You gtfo.

You sound like a noob. GTFO, son.

[Tajin]

i like how you do not melee. =D>

lol, yeah. Probably would have had a higher overall damage output and a smoother/faster fight if he had. It's a shame how many PUPs just stand back rather than properly gearing up and contributing the other half of their damage potential.

Toth and the OP already gave responses to why i think a PUP standing back is nice. Thanks for proving yet again that some ( most? ) PUPs, want is to be MNKs with pet. Im done with this thread.

=D> once again to the OP.

[Toth]

The thing about PUP is that the master isn't just standing around doing nothing. You MUST pay attention and keep maneuvers on your automaton at all times and wasting time meleeing Kirin would be an unproductive distraction.

[Khamsin]

Last I checked, Maneuvers took time from melee, not the other way around. It is possible for some people to keep maneuvers up while being engaged, as opposed to doing the same exact thing but from out of melee range.

As for PUPs wanting to be MNKs with pets, keep in mind that it's a waste for a PUP to just outright ignore part of its responsibility, regardless of how little you think it contributes. It's just lazy. If you're worried that meleeing won't contribute enough to make it worthwhile, then you may as well pack away the automaton altogether and just come RNG or BLM.

For a SMN, it makes sense that they don't melee. It's not practical for them to leave their avatars out all the time, and they need to rest. For a PUP, there's absolutely no reason to sub /WHM and toss out random -nas. You could do the same on any other job. I could come WAR/WHM and toss out random -nas if I wanted. As PUP, I usually go /WAR (when I actually go as PUP... I'm always on one of my other jobs though, lol). I don't have any MP gear at all for PUP, anyways, and I don't have the inventory to hold both my DD sets (haste and acc) in addition to a useless MP set for a melee DD job.

I'm the first one to admit that PUP pales in comparison to other melee DDs (especially since WAR was my first job, I only levelled PUP for fun), but to reduce it to a /WHM backline role is degrading, and actually takes away from it's primary task: to deal damage. This is coming from a SMN who happily support cures and -nas in the same situation, since it doesn't detract from a SMN's role and is much more useful and practical in that context than a PUP/WHM.

[Healer]

After reading that topic about that shitty PUP, Theknownninja, on Tonko's post the other day I thought I should post this to not let Theknowninja be the reference for all PUPs.

First, this is from a topic I did not too long ago on KI. Wanted to test how well PUP could do on Kirin and some of the gods in general there.
If this belongs in Newbie section then I apologize; I feel since this is sort of endgame then it probably belonged here.

Also, this is to show PUP can too be useful in some endgame such as sky as any other job. Not necessary the best or top always. "lolpup" is welcomed because it is just a post count +1 and for half of the people saying it proves their ignorance (the other half are bandwagoners)

Source for test 1: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 156437&d=0
Note: There is a Suzaku parse too just for kicks somewhere in this post. Sakura did very well on Suzaku and Genbu but mediocre on Byakko and Seiryu (no Eraser on the AH to counter the Paralyze...)

Meian :
I wasn't sure how to post this normally without doing it this way so...

Edit2: Sakura is the Automaton

NOTE: I came in the fight at @46%-ish, I started Parse soon as I joined
NOTE2: Someone started parse at 50% and said Chucknorris was 2nd place at 12.27% and 3rd was Sakura was 8.98%

There were 3 other blms besides the top two who parsed (Chubbs and Chucknorris) and the rest were melee dd (no smn)

3/3 Optimization 1/3 Fine-Tuning 1/3 Role Reversal 1/3 Ventriloquy (sp)

5/5 Melee

250 Skill

Attachments:
Attuner
Tension Spring II
Tension Spring I
Target Marker
Stablizer I
Heat Seeker
Hammermill
Optical Fiber
Heatsink
Auto-Repair II
Analyzer
Stealth Screen

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8...kirin50df7.jpg
Shot at 1969-12-31

All in all, she out dd'd all of the melee. Lack of people for some reason this run... Also, I messed up three Cannibal Blades and one got resisted because of Lightsday (307 normally)

Edit: 1 Sam showed up, not none

Source for test 2: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... &n=last#np

[quote:a033a]Meian :
Similiar as to last time with gear and merits:

PUP/WHM for curing self from Role Reversal and possible hate from Ventriloquy (sp) as well as waking up others from Sleepga and Paralyna from Seiryu pop. AF hands were kept on the whole time.

Automaton name: ~Sakura~

5/5 Automaton Melee (250 Melee skill)
3/3 Optimization
1/3 Fine-Tuning
1/3 Role Reversal
1/3 Ventriloquy


Attachments:
Attuner
Tension Spring II
Tension Spring I
Target Marker
STABLIZER II (instead of Heat Seeker this time)
Armor Plate II
Hammermill (did between 20-60's dmg on Kirin, strangely never missed)
Optical Fiber
Heatsink
Auto-Repair II
Analyzer
Stealth Screen


First test, was when I joined at 71% Kirin. Results are as followed:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2...percentsh1.jpg
Shot at 2007-07-07


WS was as followed:
At least 8 Cannibal Blades, none resisted
2 String Clippers for 20 and 42

The WS didn't show up in the parse but were counted from what I checked





Second Test was Kirin at 97%. Results are as followed:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6...percentgp0.jpg
Shot at 2007-07-07


WS were as followed in this parse:
11 (string)
302
string miss
302
301
301
308
string miss
301
301
20 string
306
301
40 (string
302

NOTE: This is the first parse that I learned how to show Cannibal Blade (and other ws from Automaton) damage. "Ability" had to be checked to appear which you can see in this parse.

What I learned from Kirin in the last post I made was that Heat Seeker + Stabalizer I combo is better than having Stabalizer II in the long run. As for XP I am not sure since mobs will probably go down too quick for Heat Seeker to take good effect in.

In the previous post the ACC was about... 66.85%
In these two tests they were... 53.82% (71% Kirin parse) and 62.96% (97% Kirin parse)


In these two parses from today Sakura stayed up in third just barely under the merited RNG. She could have passed him if she had used Cannibal Blade everytime. 1st being Diabolos is no brainer but out SMN isn't the brightest and is often slow sometimes so I believe Sakura could've passed him.

PUP joining the Kirin fight early abling it to do Cannibal Blade several times as compared to the last post (when I joined at half %) shot up her damage rank.

Sakura stole hate several times even with Ventriloquy. Normally it was just a Tail Smash and he'd go off on his merry way. I was Tail Smashed twice also.

Once again I forgot to buy Eraser since it is cheap now on the AH to help with Sleepga and Bind (Tail Smash) from Kirin which hit Sakura a few times...


Overall, I am quite pleased how the results were far superior than the last post I made. As stated earlier, Cannibal Blade makes a difference in the damage rank if the PUP joins in early on Kirin.

If I forgot to mention anything please tell me^^ Hope to see more endgame PUP usage and data!

Heat Seeker ftw

PUP does pretty well also on trigger mobs, the only exception being Faust. Resisted most of the nukes but were constant, she pulled hate twice. Fun to use on Mother Globe since Valoredge high hp + Role Reversal. Ulli and Zippy were also grand times.

What does this tell us? It took merits and most of the best attachments (outside of Eraser) to parse that much. Obviously, harder merited players could do better than PUP and aren't rotated like BLMs.

The 2nd test was to show how it can keep up with Diabolos if you want to use that as a reference instead of just saying "everyone else sucks;" and no you can't say the SMN sux

There are a lot of PUPs that are too cheap or ignorant (aka Theknownninja in that other post Tonko put up) to show the job isn't "usually" craptacular <3
Not to say you're going to invite PUPs to your lses now but just to keep an open mind and have some more knowledge

If I had forgotten to mention something feel free to ask
*puts on his lolpup helmet*[/quote:a033a]

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...re-o-meter.jpg

Nope, not even Sinus http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...bond/Sinus.jpg leader of Apathy cares.

[Toth]

How can I be as cool and useful as you Healer?!

As for PUPs wanting to be MNKs with pets, keep in mind that it's a waste for a PUP to just outright ignore part of its responsibility, regardless of how little you think it contributes. It's just lazy. If you're worried that meleeing won't contribute enough to make it worthwhile, then you may as well pack away the automaton altogether and just come RNG or BLM.

So I should follow around Kirin, hit him for 0-5 points of damage and then weaponskill for crap? Yeah, that's being lazy, all right. Meanwhile, my maton just used String Clipper because I was trying to line up an attack.

[Khamsin]

So I should follow around Kirin, hit him for 0-5 points of damage and then weaponskill for crap? Yeah, that's being lazy, all right. Meanwhile, my maton just used String Clipper because I was trying to line up an attack.

No, that is lazy. I must be talented, I can melee and WS and even SC all while keeping my maneuvers up.

My point is more in general against the mentality that PUP should just stay back and not melee rather than "attempt to be MNKs with pets", but even if you do 0-5 points of damage, that's still more damage meleeing than standing back, is it not? And all without an opportunity cost (like a RDM spamming Stone 1, or a SMN meleeing... both do "damage", but at the cost of performance in their primary task).

[Meian]

Read again, /whm was for Role Reversal also. Even with Ventrilouy she got hate on more than one occasion or from Kirin spinning around to do Heat Breath.


Sorry dude but your accusations of meleeing with a C skill with no BRD to buff little ol' me (which wouldn't do much anyway) vs something like Kirin is far'fetched unless you can show me proof otherwise...

Yes, my SMN would do better. The point was to show PUP can be done on stuff like Kirin or anything in Sky. Not every PUP has SMN or BLM leveled, this would also give them some confidence to work harder in their job also.

I watch THF hit for 0 often on Kirin who have HIGHER skill and likely more Attack than me.

Also, I am not saying /whm is best overall for PUP in everything. I used it to my advantage. Don't think I am converting people to use /whm in every situation and NEVER melee >>

[Dreampainter]

Firstly, I have great desire to throw healer off the highest point in monarch linn for posting the ENTIRE op before his marginal reply.


Now that thats out of the way...

I am also not in favor of pup meleeing on kirin. Its not that any damage helps on a kited fight, but as has been stated here a few times it really takes away from the controlling of the automaton. Its not that you can't do both at once, but its just not wise to. Its a good idea to keep you and your puppet in completely opposite roles while you're in a large scale fight like this, otherwise ventriloquy and role reversal won't be as effiective as they could be.


Watching the changes in the battle and applying the appropriate maneuvers takes precedent over everything else. I've done Jailers as pup because I despise doing them as smn and tend to get better results on pup on them. Being able to RR your puppet's hp to full and then cure yourself, or blink/stoneskin and use ventriloquy plays a large role in keeping interruptions off your puppet.

I said a few months ago that if I ever go to a fight that is kited, my first choice will most likely be pup to use because it handles very well against kiting.Its damage is not hampered at all in this capacity.

[Khamsin]

No, I wasn't saying you were telling people to /WHM all the time. I was just pointing out you could do even better by focusing on your primary task of dealing damage rather than sacrificing some of the potential by subbing WHM or taking a back line role.

Going /WHM to cure yourself for Role Reversal is pointless when there is another mage around that is capable of curing you. That's why they're there. Afterall, you don't see the other melee subbing WHM so they can cure themselves too, do you? Should I go WAR/WHM to my next LS event so as not to tax the mages' MP on curing poor insignificant me? Your mages are there for a reason, and a PUP in the red is just as important as a WAR in the red when it comes time to cure them.

Like I said, that sort of mentality is degrading because it implies that:

1) PUPs aren't as important to cure as other DDs, and as such, MP spent curing PUPs is a waste and pointless taxation on the melee party mages' MP so they'll have more MP left to cure the other DDs who deserve it;

2) PUP is such a weak DD that its not even worth gearing for DD, and as such it is acceptable to just let your pet deal it's portion of the damage while you sit back and toss out support magic in an attempt to justify your presence among real DDs who proudly gear for the job and unabashedly perform their task without a second thought to their own self-worth.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

2) PUP is such a weak DD that its not even worth gearing for DD, and as such it is acceptable to just let your pet deal it's portion of the damage while you sit back and toss out support magic in an attempt to justify your presence among real DDs who proudly gear for the job and unabashedly perform their task without a second thought to their own self-worth.

Attachments = Gearing for DD and from the parses it seems to REALLY pay off. Adding 500 damage to that 9k from your pathetic melee attempts isn't worth giving up cures.

[Dreampainter]

1) PUPs aren't as important to cure as other DDs, and as such, MP spent curing PUPs is a waste and pointless taxation on the melee party mages' MP so they'll have more MP left to cure the other DDs who deserve it;

you hit the nail on the head. Thats why this is done now, but it would be nice for it to change. I think its also an attempt on the part of the community to understand why the hell we keep getting mage gear every update. Until Divas start giving equal treatment to the job, or someone with a big mouth starts complaining about not getting cured after RR as pup, this may remain is it is =/


I'm still not sure pup could even hit kirin at all, for any damage higher than 0, but you never know until you try. And i'm not even going to pretend to know the outcome of something that I haven't tried yet. They said my air spirit wouldn't be able to silence/gravity kirin (and it can). Just have to give it a try and see what happens for a job with such a small database of actual usage info. What Meian is doing however, seem to be working for his group.