Kirin tests on Merited PUP

[Healer]

In all seriousness, is PUP broken in the sense that it's less useful then even a job like loldrg for DD as compared to all other melee DD jobs? From what I've been reading and hearing from others since PUP ever came about was that it's so broken, it's even further rendered useless then loldrg.

[Khamsin]

2) PUP is such a weak DD that its not even worth gearing for DD, and as such it is acceptable to just let your pet deal it's portion of the damage while you sit back and toss out support magic in an attempt to justify your presence among real DDs who proudly gear for the job and unabashedly perform their task without a second thought to their own self-worth.

Attachments = Gearing for DD and from the parses it seems to REALLY pay off. Adding 500 damage to that 9k from your pathetic melee attempts isn't worth giving up cures.

How much damage is worth giving up cures? How would a SAM parse with a /WHM sub instead of /WAR? Is that damage difference worth it? How about for MNK? Or RNG/WAR vs RNG/WHM (although its worth it to some to do /NIN).

[Meian]

You continue to make what you believe "factual" statements that someone with C skill to hit harder than a A+ merited THF who can still hit for 0 often on Kirin without any proof. Friend of mine in the shell has 6/8 dagger merits, only hits for 0 except on crit and SA. To be a bit more technical I asked him what his Attack was (with only a dagger, a ring, and mantle on) he had 347 compared to my 321, and that is with my 8/8 H2H.

100 more damage on a Parser at BEST (for hitting for what, 6 on criticals?) isn't realistic to be trying. Your ideology is suggesting SMN should sub BLM also for higher MP pool? And BLM should sub SMN for Refresh and more MP (lolrambus) because WHM and RDM can keep them alive.

Your comparisons using WAR and PUP don't make sense. Crippling damage from going WAR/THF to WAR/WHM doesn't compare with me going /war over /whm on a mob with such defense. In exp, sure I'll /war.

Once again, do not state what you believe are facts until proven.

To also mention, I missed some Cannibal Blade opporitunities because of the constant changing of battle from either Stonaga, hate on Automaton, and the fact I was still testing the waters with this style so I was not use to spamming <pettp>. Sure it can be done as mentioned above by others to keep manuvers up, smack Kirin for 0-1 (critical for 6), watch my "Meian uses (insert WS here), but misses Kirin", watch Automaton's health for when she gets hate, and...

...Hate control. Randomly after several minutes during the fight after I used Ventriloquy, Kirin randomly comes up to me and Tail Smashes me (thank God not Deadly Hold; oh wait, Tail Smash, yay for ERASE). If I established even more hate on him then using Ventriloquy still gives my Automaton some hate which can wind up either of us dead. hi2u 20 minute Activate and being replaced in the party.

If /war was SOMEHOW viable (that YOU prove, sir) on Kirin and any other lesser gods I would not have used it during these tests since this was for the catagory of "Puppetmaster" merits. I gave a good impression to my LS, if I had died because of /war what kind of impression would that have been?

Final time, show me the amazinggggggggggggggg difference with /war on Kirin otherwise I am sticking to this or possibly /cor if I come back on PUP with Kirin for more testing.

In case you think I am too lazy or don't have the gear for meleeing... Here you go

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2...2010026br8.png

[Toth]

I want to know what magic food or gear allows Khamsin's PUP to hit more than 0-10 damage on Kirin (and often). I have to agree with everything Max has said so far in this thread.

[Sho]

Get a Swift Belt, Meian. For shame, having a K Club but no belt. For shame. >_>

[Spira]

I was thinking on your strategy for kirin and for the most part I would agree that by subbing /WHM and not meleeing you aren't hampering your ability to deal damage in anyway. After all, for the kited battle, the huge majority, if not all of your damage (if you even attempt to melee) is from your automaton, and really the only thing that is going to affect them is attachments and maneuvers.

Before RR or Ventriloquy, I'd say the optimum sub would have to be COR because its the only sub that has an ability to enhance your pet in any way. It still is, actually, but there is the toss up of subbing a healing sub and supporting yourself, others and even your automaton through RR and Ventriloquy. It also adds to your surviveability, which is crucial if you want to keep up damage. A dead PUP = no automaton. Granted the only thing you should fear is Stonega and Astral Flow.. and the occasional hate gain from Ventrilo, a sub that can heal has its advantages.

As for subs that increase the masters damage output, it really isn't worth the effort. We have to face the facts that PUP isnt the strongest of melee jobs, and if those stronger jobs can face some problems with damage and accuracy fighting this mob, why should be even bother when we can focus on our strength which far outweighs attempting to melee?

It isn't just for kirin, I believe that if a PUP is fighting any job that has to be kited, it should drop the notion of meleeing altogether. Chances are stuff that need to be kited won't be taking much physical damage easily. There are other situations when a master can melee to add to damage output but these situations are definitely not it.

[evilpaul]

You continue to make what you believe "factual" statements that someone with C skill to hit harder than a A+ merited THF who can still hit for 0 often on Kirin without any proof. Friend of mine in the shell has 6/8 dagger merits, only hits for 0 except on crit and SA. To be a bit more technical I asked him what his Attack was (with only a dagger, a ring, and mantle on) he had 347 compared to my 321, and that is with my 8/8 H2H.

Doggy? I taunted him mercilessly for about 5 seconds about being outparsed by your Automaton.

In case you think I am too lazy or don't have the gear for meleeing... Here you go

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2...2010026br8.png

No Animator +1? Gimp! Does anyone know what that does yet, btw? Everyone couldn't have gotten 30 skeletons this past month.

[Starr]

Does that THF sub NIN and melee Kirin by any chance?

[Samwich]

You continue to make what you believe "factual" statements that someone with C skill to hit harder than a A+ merited THF who can still hit for 0 often on Kirin without any proof.

Thief's dagger skill isn't A+, its A-.

Friend of mine in the shell has 6/8 dagger merits, only hits for 0 except on crit and SA. To be a bit more technical I asked him what his Attack was (with only a dagger, a ring, and mantle on) he had 347 compared to my 321, and that is with my 8/8 H2H.

Using an incorrectly played or equipped Thief as an example doesn't help your cause (i.e. no +attack, or /NIN) considering you have melee gear and apparently are well-versed at the PUP job. I can come to Kirin as THF/WAR (fully merited dagger + love torque) and have no problem hitting Kirin for double digits using a simple attack/accuracy setup. It's a matter of overcoming obstacles. Claiming that the melee dmg you would put out is insignificant just doesn't work. There's no reason to not deal melee dmg when the option is there. Simply put, if you choose to sit back and let your maton deal all the dmg while you just guide it is lazy when you can be right by it's side adding to the parse.

[SassiAsura]

And here I thought I was going to see a parse of Kirin and his party of summons beating on Pups.

[Tdizzle]

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../kirin4-14.jpg

Pace + Bloodhawk BB mnks although may have been missing a piece of two of uber equipments, Amina super warrior with all that you could ever want in both gear/merits, Matix rng pre relic bow, kerb super blm, and me lolthf.

This was only like 40% of the fight, because I died soon after Amina died. Just looking at my allys avg ws dmg and whatnot compared to pups ally is interesting. I think the death went matix > amina > me in fairly quick succession so hard to speak of final dmg number would have been. But here ya go just for reference, at least a comparison can be made for avg ws and acc and avg melee dmg. Mostly it's funny that people are like omg he's gonna hit for 0 cuz lolthf or (insert gimp job). Not sure what people are doing wrong but I dont have that problem personally and I eat sushi because its a miss fest any other way. (and yes it's hard as hell for a thf to consistantly hit sa ws (hence my 250 low or whatever) with hate bouncinng around like mad but I tried...

Pretty sure amina had 2 brds and my pt had 1 on this kirin. This was 3 months ago btw so everyone was slightly gimper than present day but should show a decent baseline to compare vs the other posted parses.

[Kyreth]

Needless to say, interesting stuff once you get past the obligatory lolPUP crap.

I wonder what an actual group of autos would do if properly supported- maybe a COR WHM or (RDM/WHM, SMN/WHM) PUP PUP PUP PUP PT would run? Does the Corsair have to be in range of the automatons for their rolls, or the PUPs?

[Meian]

I wasn't stating that THF can't do anything on Kirin. I was making a comparison how someone with a bit higher attack just from wearing "3" pieces of gear and 6 dagger merits and more STR.

66+9 STR and 321 Attack with a C skill realistically is going to do anything to Kirin? Sushi is a %, the % isn't going to be that drastic compared to a B+ or higher skilled weapon grade.
Spira has hit the nail on the head with his post. I've always trusted his judgment from many of his posts in the past.

Ahh evilpaul, nah it wasn't Doggy. I don't recall Doggy having THF. He usually comes NIN or BLM (pretty good BLM actually). Totem slapped everyone on the ls saying he was shameful and disgusted a npc beat all those people XD

Sho, I do have swift XD But I am an ACC whore when it comes to PUP and haven't tried using swift since I finished 8/8 H2H. Ahh forgot to equip my Battle Gloves/Those attack gloves in the pic. I thought someone was going to flame about my Ethereal earring. And no Animator +1, damn Einherjar is a pain with just a common group of people we know. Maybe if they make it easier or there is some trick I haven't seen yet...

Bit late for me to say but thx for the praise Tajin =)

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Do we even know what Animator+1 does?

[Rocl]

Do we even know what Animator+1 does?

Have you seen anyone with 15,000 ampoules yet?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Do we even know what Animator+1 does?

Have you seen anyone with 15,000 ampoules yet?

Yeah, everyone in my Odin farming group has around 20k

[safer]

the other day i came to kirin as whm/pup10 for kicks, i used the standard harlequin frame as i had just turned in the stuff for stormwaker

anyways it was hilarious to see pamama hitting kirin for 1 or 2 points of damage, and the occasional slapstick for 1 or 2 damage as well

i think i gained a total of like 15 levels of melee combat skills and like 2-3 levels of magic skill just from him casting dia

no idea where im goin with this...

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

the other day i came to kirin as whm/pup10 for kicks, i used the standard harlequin frame as i had just turned in the stuff for stormwaker

anyways it was hilarious to see pamama hitting kirin for 1 or 2 points of damage, and the occasional slapstick for 1 or 2 damage as well

i think i gained a total of like 15 levels of melee combat skills and like 2-3 levels of magic skill just from him casting dia

no idea where im goin with this...

Mages should sub PUP37 for Kirin for bonus damage!

[Ferien]

Chucknorris in the first parse isn't a melee /sadface

Don't worry, he's also a BB MNK.

[Rocl]

Chucknorris in the first parse isn't a melee /sadface

Don't worry, he's also a BB MNK.

Parser can't accurately gauge Chucknorris was also an acceptable answer.