Chaos Helm+1/Wbody vs. Turban/Gloom Breastplate

[Quizno]

Question about the haste belt since we're on the subject...

so my question is; Does it count toward the spell-haste cap instead? If so, it's useless if you get 2h songs and haste casted on you, correct?

Haste belt counts toward the spell haste cap, so yes it is largely useless.

Edit:

One instance where it could be extremely useful is:

The magic haste cap can be reached using double march (not soul voiced!), haste spell, and haste belt.

A drk using Rune chopper, walahra turban, homam: bd, hn, lg, ft, brutal earring and a blitz ring will have a equipment haste of 24% and a hit modifier of about 10% due to multi procs.

At 95% this would give you approximately 48 hits in 30 seconds.

If a brd's 2hr isn't up you could always cure bomb the drk and use this weapon to get decent results.

A BZ would only be capable of about 43 hits using the haste belt, and the MK would also be about 43 hits.

KC will make 70.

Long story short:

If you have brd 2hr, haste belt is worthless.

If you need multiple zergs... say AV... then haste belt is way better than using a speed belt or swift belt in the waist slot for both two handed, and one handed weapons.

[Tulun]

lol all this haste talk is making me wants to get that Blitz ring again especially since I'm likely not going after Bloodbead anytime soon...

[Quizno]

lol all this haste talk is making me wants to get that Blitz ring again especially since I'm likely not going after Bloodbead anytime soon...

Yeah, I've been looking for them on the AH for the last month... they get snapped up fast, but still for a low price.

Unfortunately SE is going to have to probably create a JA haste cap next.

If they increased level 2 job merits to 5/10 and didn't fix it, expect a maintainence like a day later.

Taking total haste of a job above 100% would make it attack infinitely fast and would allow a drk to litterally solo any mob in the game instantly...

As far as Haste vs HP I ran some numbers (using Kraken Club and Mercurial Kris):

KC
Haste(hits @95%)
0 51
1 52
2 53
3 54
4 55
5 56
6 57
7 59
8 60
9 61
10 62
11 64
12 65
13 67
14 68
15 70
16 72
17 73
18 75
19 77
20 79
21 82
22 84
23 86
24 89
25 92

MK
Haste(hits @95%)
0 31
1 32
2 33
3 33
4 34
5 34
6 35
7 36
8 37
9 37
10 38
11 39
12 40
13 41
14 42
15 43
16 44
17 45
18 46
19 47
20 49
21 50
22 51
23 53
24 54
25 56


Using some pretty easy math you can se that 1% haste is basically equivalent to 70-80 HP for one handed weapons near the 25% equipment haste limit (converted to 9 dmg per hit using SE), and approximately to 50 hp (converted to 6 hp per hit using SE) at the very lowest levels of haste.

I'll be honest, that kind of shocks me.

This basically shows that Blitz Ring is the single best ring in the game for zerging on Drk...

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

lol all this haste talk is making me wants to get that Blitz ring again especially since I'm likely not going after Bloodbead anytime soon...

Yeah, I've been looking for them on the AH for the last month... they get snapped up fast, but still for a low price.

Unfortunately SE is going to have to probably create a JA haste cap next.

If they increased level 2 job merits to 5/10 and didn't fix it, expect a maintainence like a day later.

Taking total haste of a job above 100% would make it attack infinitely fast and would allow a drk to litterally solo any mob in the game instantly...

Allow any job*

[Quizno]

Allow any job*

Well, only drk has access to the game breaking desperate blows job ability =)

I mean, obviously any job would do the same with 100% haste, but only DRK would have a shot at it if SE messes up and doesn't set a cap before implementing a 5/10 cap for Lv2 job merits, lol

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

oh duh, sorry ._.

[Linsivi]

Ugh had a post made but phone died. -.-

So would there be any merit to using Cato, then switching to KC (instead of BZ)? Maybe in a /DRG full haste / no soul voice march kind of thing? Or is cato really only breaking things due to desperate blows?

[Quizno]

All the tests have shown that Catastrophe is counting towards the equipment haste limit.

Which means it would be of the most benefit when going something other than /drg.

If you wanted to go /nin and use KC you would have the best of both worlds (dmg and protection).

For ultimate output however,

go /sam

Use catastrophe, switch to BZ for the first 30 seconds of SE (while you have on db3) and when db3 wears off switch over to KC.


To what you asked though, yeah, catastrophe is working in concert with db3 to break things.

going /sam you normally can only reach a max of 22% haste from equipment, and that is using dusk gloves+1 and speed belt. You need to go /sam in order to get the 10% haste from hasso (for 2h weapons) that goes beyond the magic/equipment cap (68.3%). Going /drg to max your equipment haste means you lose the 10% hasso bonus.

However, having access to catastrophe allows you to hit 25% equipment haste while using /sam and in concert with db3 allows you to reach the 93.3% absolute haste limit.

[AoshiZ]

Taking total haste of a job above 100% would make it attack infinitely fast and would allow a drk to litterally solo any mob in the game instantly...

A little confused. The way you describe haste % makes it sound like the percentage is representative of a reverse correlation to the total amount of delay. (Example: as you approach 100% haste your total delay approaches 0) Can you clarify what you mean by this? I was always under the assumption that 20% haste meant 20% less delay (In other words, 100% haste would mean a weapon with 500 delay would now be 250 delay). I have seen the Dark Relic haste videos with the fast attacking relic but I'm am not clear on the mechanics.

Thanks,
AoshiZ

[Quizno]

A little confused. The way you describe haste % makes it sound like the percentage is representative of a reverse correlation to the total amount of delay. (Example: as you approach 100% haste your total delay approaches 0) Can you clarify what you mean by this? I was always under the assumption that 20% haste meant 20% less delay (In other words, 100% haste would mean a weapon with 500 delay would now be 250 delay). I have seen the Dark Relic haste videos with the fast attacking relic but I'm am not clear on the mechanics.

Thanks,
AoshiZ

As you approach 100% haste your delay approaches 0, this is correct.

Say you are using Bahamut's Zaghnal:

At 10% haste your delay (well not really your delay, because TP gain remains constant, but you get the idea) is 480 * 0.9, and your seconds per hit is (480*0.9)/60 while your hits in 30 seconds will be 30/((480*0.9)/60)).

If your haste is 100% then you end up with 30/0 which is infinity.


What this means is that when you are comparinga 2h weapon to a 1h weapon you look at the haste in this manner:

A 1h weapon will have a total haste of 68.3%.

A 2h weapon gets the same bonus as a max, PLUS the hasso bonus from /sam, which is shown to be 10%, but it is compounded because you are actually gaining 10% divided by the remaining 31.7% which as you can see makes you over 30% faster.

Going even further with DB3 you get 15% more haste, which is 15% of the 21.7% remaining, meaning you actually gain something like 75% more spead over hasso alone.


Or think of it this way:

Say you are at 92.3% haste, and decide not to equip your blitz ring because it is "only" 1% haste.

Thing is that adding that 1% is actually subtracting from 7.7% haste which means you are actually increasing your speed by around 12-13% by adding that 1% stat.

As you approach 100% (or the 93.3% cap) haste becomes progressively more important due to compounding.

[Tulun]

I have 1 final question...

if I understand the chart correctly, if I had full magic haste and 16% gear, a Rune chopper would beat out my 16% M-kris? I could achieve it at 25% Chopper? (with my gear, I can do this)...

if so, that depresses me greatly lol.

[dbdesigns]

I have another question also, which i think im 99.9% right but I have a doubt because a few people arguing with me so hard that I could be wrong. When activating souleater with an enhances souleater equip.. You have to keep it on for the enhancement to stay intact correct?


Also..

Aces Helm vs. Turban~ I always tell myself that if ACC is an issue you should not be zerging in the first place.

[Khelek]

Aces Helm vs. Turban~ I always tell myself that if ACC is an issue you should not be zerging in the first place.

Never Ace's. if you need acc, go chs.burg+1 and homam body. if you go for ace's, you get 8 less acc than with homam body+chs.burg+1, and you miss out on the HP. If you need the haste, go turban.

EDIT: or if you need acc, get a THF <_<

[kareface]

A little confused. The way you describe haste % makes it sound like the percentage is representative of a reverse correlation to the total amount of delay. (Example: as you approach 100% haste your total delay approaches 0) Can you clarify what you mean by this? I was always under the assumption that 20% haste meant 20% less delay (In other words, 100% haste would mean a weapon with 500 delay would now be 250 delay). I have seen the Dark Relic haste videos with the fast attacking relic but I'm am not clear on the mechanics.

Thanks,
AoshiZ

As you approach 100% haste your delay approaches 0, this is correct.

Say you are using Bahamut's Zaghnal:

At 10% haste your delay (well not really your delay, because TP gain remains constant, but you get the idea) is 480 * 0.9, and your seconds per hit is (480*0.9)/60 while your hits in 30 seconds will be 30/((480*0.9)/60)).

If your haste is 100% then you end up with 30/0 which is infinity.


What this means is that when you are comparinga 2h weapon to a 1h weapon you look at the haste in this manner:

A 1h weapon will have a total haste of 68.3%.

A 2h weapon gets the same bonus as a max, PLUS the hasso bonus from /sam, which is shown to be 10%, but it is compounded because you are actually gaining 10% divided by the remaining 31.7% which as you can see makes you over 30% faster.

Going even further with DB3 you get 15% more haste, which is 15% of the 21.7% remaining, meaning you actually gain something like 75% more spead over hasso alone.


Or think of it this way:

Say you are at 92.3% haste, and decide not to equip your blitz ring because it is "only" 1% haste.

Thing is that adding that 1% is actually subtracting from 7.7% haste which means you are actually increasing your speed by around 12-13% by adding that 1% stat.

As you approach 100% (or the 93.3% cap) haste becomes progressively more important due to compounding.

I'm not up on JA haste, but as far as I knew, haste isn't compounded, its totaled and taken of the total delay.

[Quizno]

Compounding maybe isn't the correct word.

It isn't X * Y * Z.

However, if you look at what I posted about % gains as you approach 100%, it makes more sense.

Like I said by adding 1% going from 92.3 to 93.3 haste, you are actually increasing your number of hits by over 12%.

When I say compounding, what I mean is that your attack speed increases more than the 1% you see.

[kareface]

increasing rate of return

edit: I don't doubt what people are saying. But I'd like to see it for myself. Does someone have proof the JA hastes don't count for the equip/spell haste caps? And does anyone have a video with a delay test at 95% haste?

[aurik]

Slight derail: According to some reports, the ninja earring (20% haste) does not count against gear haste. What type of haste does it give? Does this also apply to rune chopper and wyvern earring which also apply their haste as a latent effect?

[RKenshin]

You only need 15% haste in gear to make BZ better than KC with SV marches etc

Well, that isn't really correct.

at 15% haste gear KC will produce 70 hits at 95% accuracy in 30 seconds.

at 15% haste gear BZ will produce 43 hits at 95% accuracy in 30 seconds.

At 19% it is 77 hits versus 56 hits.

At 22% (max for non /drg) it becomes 84 versus 75.

At capped haste (possible only buy first using catastrophe and then switching to BZ) you can get 106 hits in 30 seconds.

However, a KC drk can go /drg, hit 25% haste, and push out 92 hits.

I hate to be a bum and point this out but assuming you used the same method to calculate these equations for all your other numbers, I believe your calculations are incorrect.

To start, IIRC every 60 delay equates to one second. Meaning that in 30 seconds you're going to have 1800 delay to fill up, and every decimal of a delay over that does not matter. Now, here are the other numbers we have to work with:

- Kraken Club is 264 delay, with an assumed average of 4 hits every swing.

- Bahamut's Scythe is 480 delay, with an assumed average of 2 hits every swing.

I'm not going to narrow it down to 95% accuracy because it's pretty pointless considering that it wouldn't make a real difference between the two numbers, since I'd be reducing each final number by the same percent.

Without any haste at all:

- Kraken remains at 264. It gets in 6 rounds (1800/264), or an average of 24 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut remains at 480. It gets in 3 rounds (1800/480), or an average of 6 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste:

- Kraken delay at 224. It gets in 8 rounds, or an average of 32 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 308. It gets in 5 rounds, or an average of 10 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste):

- Kraken delay at 119. It gets in 15 rounds, or an average of 60 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 216. It gets in 8 rounds, or an average of 16 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 25% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste):

- Kraken delay at 93. It gets in 19 rounds, or an average of 76 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 168. It gets in 10 rounds, or an average of 20 attacks at 100% accuracy.


And so on. Feel free to check my math or correct me anywhere if I made a mistake. I'm rushing this math out in between doing a lot of things so I may have made some kind of obvious mistake/messup.

But, my point being that at no instance in a normal scenario with the haste % for both weapons equal, should Bahamut's Zhagnal come close to generating as many hits as a Kraken Club. A Kraken has about half the delay of Bahamut's, with an average number of swings per round that's twice as high, and no viable % of haste applied equally to both weapons will put Zhagnal ahead. And I don't think that Hasso/Desperate blows can make up for that difference either.

So really I don't think there's any contest between the two as far as overal damage output goes.

[aurik]

Kraken averages 4.5 assuming an even distribution of swing counts.

Also, hasso and DB does change the landscape significantly in favor of BZ because those values can take you from 68.3% (cap haste under any conditions on Kraken) to 93.3% which is a massive difference.

[Quizno]

I'm not going to narrow it down to 95% accuracy because it's pretty pointless considering that it wouldn't make a real difference between the two numbers, since I'd be reducing each final number by the same percent.

As Aurik pointed out already hasso and db3 are what change things. Kraken loses out on 25% worth of JA haste, which as I showed in previous posts, are even more than 25%.

Therer are also many times when you won't have the benefit of 25% equip haste (by going /drg]. Many people go /nin for safety which can make sense in prolonged SE situation such as JoL where it takes several waves to kill. In these situations your max equipment haste drops drastically (down to 15% or 16% if you have dusk+1). In JoL in particular you don't have the benefit of constant feint or SV march, or even two bards. In these cases you will probably have to go double accuracy with kc, and accuracy + march with a merrited ridill. With BZ you can go double march (20% haste).

Combine this with the fact that most people would go and use their swift belt instead of seeing the utility of using a haste belt to boost overall haste.

In the case of kc and ridill you will gain a full 10% haste rather than 4% from swift belt or 6% from speed belt. Using a BZ you will gain 8.3 haste which is still superior.

Now granted, over 1 minute the numbers still favor KC and ridill (in this situation), but over 30 seconds BZ becomes a very viable option and in the case of a person using haste belt rather than swift belt, a superior option to ridill. In addition BZ will still come out very favorable for your needs.

And I don't think that Hasso/Desperate blows can make up for that difference either.

I have no clue why you would say that when I already showed you all the numbers. This thread isn't to say KC isn't a good weapon for drk zerging... It is to show that there are other options and to make people fully aware of what is possible and what is necessary to optimize any given set-up.