Chaos Helm+1/Wbody vs. Turban/Gloom Breastplate

[Beckwin]

An interesting thing about BZ is that after the 30 seconds of BW, you can spam SE Guillotines assuming you have some curebombing. Ridill also has this capability, but would likely tp slower (not that it really matters too much). In a DL fight it's not too uncommon to have a couple whms covering DRKs with bene and curagas.

KC is still easily the best SE zerg weapon, but it's definitely cool to see another decent alternative, especially from an item that's considered a trash drop unless you want to skill scythe. and because I sold KC a couple weeks ago >.>

[RKenshin]

Therer are also many times when you won't have the benefit of 25% equip haste (by going /drg]. Many people go /nin for safety which can make sense in prolonged SE situation such as JoL where it takes several waves to kill. In these situations your max equipment haste drops drastically (down to 15% or 16% if you have dusk+1). In JoL in particular you don't have the benefit of constant feint or SV march, or even two bards. In these cases you will probably have to go double accuracy with kc, and accuracy + march with a merrited ridill. With BZ you can go double march (20% haste).

I'm a little confused with what you mean here. If you're arguing that many people use /DRG and /NIN most often for Kraken DRK, then this whole discussion is just hypethically speaking? Because you can't get a 10% bonus of Hasso without /SAM. And I'm just about certain, without doing any math, that Bahamut's Zhagnal will always end up with less swings than Kraken in 30 seconds without that advantage and under the same circumstances.

Plus while a kraken DRK may lose 5% haste from changing from /DRG to /NIN, a DRK/SAM loses 10% haste changing from /SAM to /NIN. And, as far as JoL goes, DRKs usually have Feint for every Souleater round they do in my LS so I think that can be chalked up as a 'depends how your LS does it.'

Also, keep in mind that if you're not equiping a lot of gear haste/getting SV marches for any situation, then kraken club gets the advantage over even a 25% hasso/DB scythe user. As haste gets higher, the gap between club vs scythe closes (with club starting off way ahead), until at an extremely high point of haste where scythe passes club. In instances where haste is a problem, like you mentioned, club has a very distinct advantage as far as # of swings goes. And heck, in any average scenario, kraken still has a distinct advantage... Because I don't see many people pumping up their haste to 93.3% on a regular basis for anything.

And I don't think that Hasso/Desperate blows can make up for that difference either.

I have no clue why you would say that when I already showed you all the numbers. This thread isn't to say KC isn't a good weapon for drk zerging... It is to show that there are other options and to make people fully aware of what is possible and what is necessary to optimize any given set-up.

What do you mean? lol.. Those numbers are incorrect, as my first post elaborated on. Referencing those numbers as proof of anything isn't logical until either they're fixed or my calculations are proven to be wrong/inaccurate. Which of course is also a possibility, but no one has proved them wrong thusfar.

Even including a 25% haste advantage for Hasso/Desperate Blows with Bahamut's Zhagnal, the numbers look like this:

Without any haste at all: (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken remains at 264. It gets in 6 rounds (1800/264), or an average of 24 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut starts at 360. It gets in 5 rounds (1800/480), or an average of 10 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste: (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 224. It gets in 8 rounds, or an average of 32 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 288. It gets in 6 rounds, or an average of 12 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste): (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 119. It gets in 15 rounds, or an average of 60 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 93. It gets in 18 rounds, or an average of 36 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 25% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste): (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 93. It gets in 19 rounds, or an average of 76 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 48. It gets in 37 rounds, or an average of 74 attacks at 100% accuracy.


Even adjusted to include Hasso/Desperate Blows, as I originally hypothesized in my first post... Kraken club still comes out on top. Hasso/DB doesn't make up for it in any of those scenarios. Only when pushing into the 93.3% area does scythe pull ahead but, seems like it would be a very uncommon situation to begin with. Obviously though as the haste gets higher the difference gets smaller, and the 25% bonus from Hasso/DB will start to shine more. But getting to that point seems to require almost perfect support/equipment mixes and sacrifices.

But, again feel free to check the math. I only checked it over once, so there could be mistakes. Just keep in mind I didn't change to an average of 4.5 swings per round that Aurik corrected me on for kraken, I kept it at 4 just like my old post for simplicity sake.

My original points still stand though.

[RKenshin]

An interesting thing about BZ is that after the 30 seconds of BW, you can spam SE Guillotines assuming you have some curebombing. Ridill also has this capability, but would likely tp slower (not that it really matters too much). In a DL fight it's not too uncommon to have a couple whms covering DRKs with bene and curagas.

KC is still easily the best SE zerg weapon, but it's definitely cool to see another decent alternative, especially from an item that's considered a trash drop unless you want to skill scythe. and because I sold KC a couple weeks ago >.>

To clarifiy I'm not debating the utility of it as a SE weapon in general, I'm just debating the integrity of the numbers that people are using to compare the power of the various weapon options. In reading this thread I found a lot of the information interesting but the numbers I saw didn't seem right. So I checked it myself, noticed that they weren't correct (or didn't seem to be), and made posts to try to clear it up.

As far as the Guillotine thing, I think that'd lower your damage output overall in a moderately high haste situation. Same for Vorpal blade. The instant drop in HP that reduces damage per hit for following round(s), combined with the delay you usually get after a WS might be too much of a disadvantage. I don't know about other linkshells but in zergs for my LS it's usually not possible to keep kraken DRKs healed well after BW wears, usually just too much going on. In non-zergs like JoL it's definitely managable though.

Mostly though I remember the two videos of full haste Apoc DRKs killing Manticores, and IIRC the DRK that melee'd his Manticore down was killing faster than the one that WS'd at every 100 TP. I remember being surprised about that when I saw the second one. I might be remembering incorrectly though.

[Taint]

An interesting thing about BZ is that after the 30 seconds of BW, you can spam SE Guillotines assuming you have some curebombing. Ridill also has this capability, but would likely tp slower (not that it really matters too much). In a DL fight it's not too uncommon to have a couple whms covering DRKs with bene and curagas.

KC is still easily the best SE zerg weapon, but it's definitely cool to see another decent alternative, especially from an item that's considered a trash drop unless you want to skill scythe. and because I sold KC a couple weeks ago >.>

To clarifiy I'm not debating the utility of it as a SE weapon in general, I'm just debating the integrity of the numbers that people are using to compare the power of the various weapon options. In reading this thread I found a lot of the information interesting but the numbers I saw didn't seem right. So I checked it myself, noticed that they weren't correct (or didn't seem to be), and made posts to try to clear it up.

As far as the Guillotine thing, I think that'd lower your damage output overall in a moderately high haste situation. Same for Vorpal blade. The instant drop in HP that reduces damage per hit for following round(s), combined with the delay you usually get after a WS might be too much of a disadvantage. I don't know about other linkshells but in zergs for my LS it's usually not possible to keep kraken DRKs healed well after BW wears, usually just too much going on. In non-zergs like JoL it's definitely managable though.

Mostly though I remember the two videos of full haste Apoc DRKs killing Manticores, and IIRC the DRK that melee'd his Manticore down was killing faster than the one that WS'd at every 100 TP. I remember being surprised about that when I saw the second one. I might be remembering incorrectly though.

I've been loaning out my K.Club to other DRKs on DL and going DRK/SAM spamming Catastrophe. You are right unless you are using Cata to maintain health/haste you will do more damage just swinging away.

[Quizno]

I'm a little confused with what you mean here. If you're arguing that many people use /DRG and /NIN most often for Kraken DRK, then this whole discussion is just hypethically speaking?

...

Ok you did it earlier by omitting db3 and hasso from your calculations which I thought was understood. This time you are omitting db3.

Using a KC the only way to hit 25% equipment haste is one of the following options:

1) go /drg and use the wyvern earring (5%)
2) use catastrophe

Going /nin you lose the 5% haste from the earring, and if you are smart (in a non-feint, non-soul voice situation) you will be using haste belt instead of either swift belt or speed belt. This leaves you with Turban, Homam: Hn (unless you have dusk+1), Lg, and Ft, and blitz ring. This is 15-16% haste. This gives ridill and kc a haste level of 43.3+15 (16) which is 58.3-59.3.

For the sake of safety, in prolonged fights where you can't zerg it in 30 seconds-1minute you will probably perfer the safety of /nin to get those extra hits in.

So then you take BZ /nin with db3. With the same gear you now can obtain haste of 43.3+15 (16) + 15. This is 73.3-74.3% haste. As I explained before, even though this is expressed as 15% haste from the baseline, it actually translates to nearly a 36% increase in the number of rounds (35.97). In addition to this, simply making contact (which remains the most important factor) you need to take into consideration the actual accuracy of each weapon. For KC you lose the 20% haste from brd because you need double accuracy... which is fine because you swing more than twice as much per round. For ridill you need one march and one accuracy, so your magic haste drops. For BZ you have enough accuracy to use double march and are thus able to hit the magic cap.

For both KC and Ridill in this situation your best waist alternative becomes haste belt which can contribute 10% haste toward the magic cap. The same is true for BZ but because you are approaching the cap already due to double march you will only be able to add 8.3% haste instead of the full 10%. This doesn't really matter because it is still more haste than you can get from using speed belt going toward the equipment cap.

Because you can't get a 10% bonus of Hasso without /SAM. And I'm just about certain, without doing any math, that Bahamut's Zhagnal will always end up with less swings than Kraken in 30 seconds without that advantage and under the same circumstances.

1) you don't need hasso in this situation to put up comparible numbers.
2) in a situation approaching the 93.3% cap hasso will take you over the top of kc. However this is only possible using catastrophe.

Plus while a kraken DRK may lose 5% haste from changing from /DRG to /NIN, a DRK/SAM loses 10% haste changing from /SAM to /NIN. And, as far as JoL goes, DRKs usually have Feint for every Souleater round they do in my LS so I think that can be chalked up as a 'depends how your LS does it.'

Yeah, if you can get feint every round then you can also take advantage of double march which you can't do without feint.

Also, keep in mind that if you're not equiping a lot of gear haste/getting SV marches for any situation, then kraken club gets the advantage over even a 25% hasso/DB scythe user. As haste gets higher, the gap between club vs scythe closes (with club starting off way ahead), until at an extremely high point of haste where scythe passes club. In instances where haste is a problem, like you mentioned, club has a very distinct advantage as far as # of swings goes. And heck, in any average scenario, kraken still has a distinct advantage... Because I don't see many people pumping up their haste to 93.3% on a regular basis for anything.

I actually pointed out situations where kraken isn't the smartest choice, and that would be times in which you need to SE but don't have the benefit of feint but are fighting a high evasion target.

And I don't think that Hasso/Desperate blows can make up for that difference either.

I have no clue why you would say that when I already showed you all the numbers. This thread isn't to say KC isn't a good weapon for drk zerging... It is to show that there are other options and to make people fully aware of what is possible and what is necessary to optimize any given set-up.

What do you mean? lol.. Those numbers are incorrect, as my first post elaborated on. Referencing those numbers as proof of anything isn't logical until either they're fixed or my calculations are proven to be wrong/inaccurate. Which of course is also a possibility, but no one has proved them wrong thusfar.

The problem is that you keep omitting obvious factors. Such as,

The first time you compared them based on 68.3% haste even though BZ would have the option to use both db3 and hasso.

The second time you compared them you didn't include that bz always has the ability to use desperate blows, and you also assumed equal accuracy which in some cases won't be the case.

Even including a 25% haste advantage for Hasso/Desperate Blows with Bahamut's Zhagnal, the numbers look like this:

Without any haste at all: (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken remains at 264. It gets in 6 rounds (1800/264), or an average of 24 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut starts at 360. It gets in 5 rounds (1800/480), or an average of 10 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste: (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 224. It gets in 8 rounds, or an average of 32 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 288. It gets in 6 rounds, or an average of 12 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste): (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 119. It gets in 15 rounds, or an average of 60 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 93. It gets in 18 rounds, or an average of 36 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 25% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste): (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 93. It gets in 19 rounds, or an average of 76 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 48. It gets in 37 rounds, or an average of 74 attacks at 100% accuracy.


Even adjusted to include Hasso/Desperate Blows, as I originally hypothesized in my first post... Kraken club still comes out on top. Hasso/DB doesn't make up for it in any of those scenarios. Only when pushing into the 93.3% area does scythe pull ahead but, seems like it would be a very uncommon situation to begin with. Obviously though as the haste gets higher the difference gets smaller, and the 25% bonus from Hasso/DB will start to shine more. But getting to that point seems to require almost perfect support/equipment mixes and sacrifices.

It doesn’t require perfection; all it requires is a typical zerg situation where you are killing a mob in 30 seconds – 1 minute.

You used 15% equipment haste and that is incorrect in this situation. You will actually be using 19-22% equipment haste in this situation and your magic haste will be capped at 43.3 opposed to the 40 you used in your figures.

Again, I will point out that this difference increases the rounds BZ is capable of by 36.5-51.5%.

In the final example you still used a value of 40 for the magic haste, when 43.3% is possible.

That 3.3% increases your number of swings from 75 (not 74) up to 112.

You can’t cherry pick where you take each set of numbers. You have to compare full zerg situation numbers to one another, and you need to compare prolonged fight numbers to one another.

And again, this isn’t to discredit KC, it is to point out that there are options and how you can optimize your set up.

[Max™]

Yeah, a friend of mine was telling me how he's been researching into this and is thinking when his shell does Bv2 farming soon that BZ should be Drk priority more than just freelot.

[Quizno]

In order to make it easier for people to see how haste works, and how it applies to an individual I have decided to start a comprehensive analysis of, well, everything. This is just the first of many posts and I have kept this one short to show the format that I will be using.

Focus sub-job: Drg
Focus equipment: Wyvern Targe and Januwiyah +1
Focus equipment haste: 1.00% [Wyvern Targe]
Focus equipment HP: 30 [Januwiyah +1]
Control equipment: Walahra Turban, Homam: Hn, Lg, and Ft, Swift Belt, Wyvern Earring, and Blitz Ring.
Control equipment haste: 24.00%
Control magic/song: Soul Voice March x 2, and Haste Spell.
Control magic/song haste: 43.30%
Control accuracy: 100%

Weapon: Mercurial Kris
Delay: 192
Average swings per round: 2

Focus equipment equipped: Januwiyah +1

Total haste: 67.30%
Modified delay: 62.78
Seconds per round: 1.046
Swings per 30 seconds: 57.36

Focus equipment equipped: Wyvern Targe

Total haste: 68.30%
Modified delay: 60.86
Seconds per round: 1.014
Swings per 30 seconds: 59.17

Analysis:

57 swings using Januwiyah +1 with 30 HP giving +3-4 damage per hit will give you +171-228 damage. The additional 2 swings allowed by the use of Wyvern Targe would have equilibrium at 85.5-114 damage per hit. This number is significantly below what would be expected from a Soul Eater hit.

[Quizno]

Ok, I decided it would be easier to develop an equation to model the HP vs. Haste vs. Delay vs. Proc Rate issue....


t = time in seconds
p = weapon average proc rate
D = damage constant for a system
h1 = haste of system 1
h2 = haste of system 2
d = weapon delay
H = HP difference between systems
c = soul eater constant (0.10 or 0.12)


(60tpD) / d(1 - h1) = [(60tp) / d(1 - h2)] * (D + Hc)

Solve the equation for D to determine the damage per hit where haste and HP are equal.

A number smaller than your observed output indicates that haste is better.

A number larger than your observed output indicates that HP is better.

You can work this in several ways. For instance, you can also calculate the HP from a given item that would be required to make it more effective than haste in the same slot.

I left out accuracy from the equation for the time being for the sake of "simplicity"...

If something looks off, please say so, I'd like to make this into something that can be graphed and tested against observed results.

[Fryte]

As I am lackin' the kraken and have been looking for ways to justify my zaghnal and /sam, I approve this thread.

Now to convince people to help me get a gloom breastplate.

[RKenshin]

Uhg a lot of quotes to respond to. Sorry, long post.

I'm a little confused with what you mean here. If you're arguing that many people use /DRG and /NIN most often for Kraken DRK, then this whole discussion is just hypethically speaking?

...

Ok you did it earlier by omitting db3 and hasso from your calculations which I thought was understood. This time you are omitting db3.

In my first calculations, yes I did omit Hasso and DBx3. I did it because I was strictly comparing the two under the same haste situations, which I said in that post. However in my second set of calculations I included both Hasso and DBx3, and the numbers were still in favor of Kraken Club.

And no, I very clearly never omitted DB3 in that situation. If you look just one line after that quote, the only thing I'm omitting from a situation where you're not /SAM is Hasso.

I'm a little confused with what you mean here. If you're arguing that many people use /DRG and /NIN most often for Kraken DRK, then this whole discussion is just hypethically speaking? Because you can't get a 10% bonus of Hasso without /SAM.

Point being, without the 10% bonus from Hasso, you're not breaking 90% haste. Without breaking 90% haste you're not going to pass kraken in swings.

Using a KC the only way to hit 25% equipment haste is one of the following options:

1) go /drg and use the wyvern earring (5%)
2) use catastrophe

Going /nin you lose the 5% haste from the earring, and if you are smart (in a non-feint, non-soul voice situation) you will be using haste belt instead of either swift belt or speed belt. This leaves you with Turban, Homam: Hn (unless you have dusk+1), Lg, and Ft, and blitz ring. This is 15-16% haste. This gives ridill and kc a haste level of 43.3+15 (16) which is 58.3-59.3.

There's no requirement to hit the 25% haste cap to do good damage though, which is what you're making it sound like here. It's very good for an increase in output but it's far from any kind of necessary for high damage output. Even if you have two DRKs where the one using a kraken club has no haste at all, and the one using the Bahamut's Zhagnal has 25% haste along with Hasso/DB, the one wielding the kraken still gets twice as many hits as the one with the scythe (according to my numbers, as shown in previous posts).

Point is though that using the same exact gear, kraken still gets in more hits against a hasso/desperate blows scythe until breaking 90% haste (which is not something that happens in a normal situation).

And, in cases where using anything other than /NIN as a subjob isn't viable, the scythe build loses out on more damage potential than a kraken build. At most you'll be losing 5% haste switching from /DRG to /NIN using a kraken setup, where as using scythe you're losing 10% haste from hasso with /SAM.

For the sake of safety, in prolonged fights where you can't zerg it in 30 seconds-1minute you will probably perfer the safety of /nin to get those extra hits in.

So then you take BZ /nin with db3. With the same gear you now can obtain haste of 43.3+15 (16) + 15. This is 73.3-74.3% haste. As I explained before, even though this is expressed as 15% haste from the baseline, it actually translates to nearly a 36% increase in the number of rounds (35.97).

I realize that every addition of haste means more towards the number of attacks you can fit in 30 seconds than the previous point of haste, but it's something that's true for both weapons. Obviously Scythe can get higher improvements with access to more haste, but what's really important is the final number of swings you get at the end. And, whether or not having Hasso or DB increases the number of swings by over 50% doesn't matter when it still results in less swings than KC (which it does until going beyond 90% haste) in this debate.

1) you don't need hasso in this situation to put up comparible numbers.

Can you show how this is true? The numbers I just posted do not support that statement, using the same gear a hasso/DB build was way behind a kraken club in number of swings until breaking ~90% haste. Which as I said before, isn't common.

And, if you omit Hasso all together from those numbers, Scythe never surpasses kraken in number of swings (or even comes close?).

Yeah, if you can get feint every round then you can also take advantage of double march which you can't do without feint.

Agreed, although typically if worse comes to worse and there's no Feint we just have one Madrigal and one March.

I actually pointed out situations where kraken isn't the smartest choice, and that would be times in which you need to SE but don't have the benefit of feint but are fighting a high evasion target.

I'm not denying whether or not those situations exist, but as another person here said... I really have to agree with the statement that, if you can't hit the mob you shouldn't be zerging it.

And, regardless, the focus of this debate for me is the number of swings possible. Not whether or not you can hit them, as that's a different topic all together.

What do you mean? lol.. Those numbers are incorrect, as my first post elaborated on. Referencing those numbers as proof of anything isn't logical until either they're fixed or my calculations are proven to be wrong/inaccurate. Which of course is also a possibility, but no one has proved them wrong thusfar.

The problem is that you keep omitting obvious factors. Such as,

The first time you compared them based on 68.3% haste even though BZ would have the option to use both db3 and hasso.

I made it clear that I was comparing the two weapons under the same scenario, there was nothing omitted. It was strictly a comparison of Kraken vs Scythe with the same haste percents.

The second time you compared them you didn't include that bz always has the ability to use desperate blows, and you also assumed equal accuracy which in some cases won't be the case.

No, that's incorrect. I very clearly said that I was including the Hasso/DB reduction in every single circumstance for my second post. As seen again here:

Even including a 25% haste advantage for Hasso/Desperate Blows with Bahamut's Zhagnal, the numbers look like this:

Without any haste at all: (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken remains at 264. It gets in 6 rounds (1800/264), or an average of 24 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut starts at 360. It gets in 5 rounds (1800/480), or an average of 10 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste: (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 224. It gets in 8 rounds, or an average of 32 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 288. It gets in 6 rounds, or an average of 12 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 15% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste): (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 119. It gets in 15 rounds, or an average of 60 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 93. It gets in 18 rounds, or an average of 36 attacks at 100% accuracy.

With 25% haste + SV Marches (40% Haste): (+25% Haste Hasso/DB bonus for Bahamut)

- Kraken delay at 93. It gets in 19 rounds, or an average of 76 attacks at 100% accuracy.

- Bahamut delay at 48. It gets in 37 rounds, or an average of 74 attacks at 100% accuracy.

Even adjusted to include Hasso/Desperate Blows, as I originally hypothesized in my first post... Kraken club still comes out on top. Hasso/DB doesn't make up for it in any of those scenarios. Only when pushing into the 93.3% area does scythe pull ahead but, seems like it would be a very uncommon situation to begin with. Obviously though as the haste gets higher the difference gets smaller, and the 25% bonus from Hasso/DB will start to shine more. But getting to that point seems to require almost perfect support/equipment mixes and sacrifices.

It doesn’t require perfection; all it requires is a typical zerg situation where you are killing a mob in 30 seconds – 1 minute.

To get more swings than KC? I don't understand how this is true? I just made two posts that very clearly showed under any circumstances other than when you have over 90% total haste, kraken club will get more swings. And, getting haste that high is not common for any typical zerg situation.

Not to mention the fact that as you said, you'll often be in situations where /NIN is the preferred subjob. In this case you do not gain the advantage of having Hasso, and without hasso you can't surpass the number of swings a club can put out with a scythe.

You used 15% equipment haste and that is incorrect in this situation. You will actually be using 19-22% equipment haste in this situation and your magic haste will be capped at 43.3 opposed to the 40 you used in your figures.

Irrelevant correction. In that situation kraken club still gets more swings in the end.

Again, I will point out that this difference increases the rounds BZ is capable of by 36.5-51.5%.

Only thing that matters here is the final number of swings each set is capabale of, and whether or not you gain a 36-50% increase in # of swings with Scythe when you have Hasso/DB3 up doesn't matter. What does matter, is which gets more swings in the end (that's what this is about).

I could say that Merc Kris starts off with a 28% haste advantage over Kraken club to make it sound badass, but that means nothing when the fact is a Kraken will still get in more swings on average than a Kris in 30 seconds under the same conditions.

In the final example you still used a value of 40 for the magic haste, when 43.3% is possible.

That 3.3% increases your number of swings from 75 (not 74) up to 112.

You can’t cherry pick where you take each set of numbers. You have to compare full zerg situation numbers to one another, and you need to compare prolonged fight numbers to one another.

Yes because I very clearly said I would be using haste from SV songs and equipment. And, it doesn't matter anyway, because I've already acknowledged the fact on several occasions that Bahamut's Scythe passes Kraken Club in swings after breaking 90% haste. There's no need for me to provide the numbers to back it up when you see it's the case in that post.

And, as far as cherry picking goes, if you really want to get specific with total # of swings here... Let's not forget that Last Resort is only active for 30 seconds of the 60 second Souleater. So even in an absolute capped haste situation, over a 60 second fight kraken will pull ahead significantly after the Scythe setup loses the 15% haste. Scythe would only get in 17 hits in the second batch of 30 seconds.

[Kirschy]

When I was running the haste tests a while back, I did use Baha Scythe to see how it compared to Kraken with full haste. Granted I only have Level 2 Desp Blows merits (so I'm missing a potential 5%), kraken club always landed a lot more hits.

[Fryte]

So...the ranking for a 30s Souleater zerg (with all applicable haste buffs) would be:

1. Kraken Club
2. Bahamut Zaghnal (with /sam + desperate blows lvl3)
3. Mercurial Kris
4. Ridill

[RKenshin]

So...the ranking for a 30s Souleater zerg (with all applicable haste buffs) would be:

1. Kraken Club
2. Bahamut Zaghnal (with /sam + desperate blows lvl3)
3. Mercurial Kris
4. Ridill

For the average situation, yeah I'm rather confident that's true. However as part of this post has proven, if you get past the 90% haste area, Bahamut's Zaghnal takes the lead if all the calculations/caps/assumptions in this post are true.

[Fryte]

Well, that's wonderful news. It means I can save a metric asston of gil not buying Mercurial Kris as I have the Zaghnal already.

[Quizno]

I went out of my way to say several times that this post isn't trying say go use BZ in every situation.

There were only two times when I even said BZ is better than KC in particular:

1) if you hit the haste cap which is only possible with a relic scythe.
2) if you are fighting something that requires higher accuracy than you can get via KC.

This is evidenly the problem we are having...

"Comparible" doesn't have to mean better. It just means you are no longer dealing with a situation where one weapon does 25k dmg and the other one barely hits 2k.

Personally, I'm waiting to see if level 2 merits are raised to 5/10 with a JA haste cap placed at 25%.

I'm really tired so I didn't read the whole thing, I'll look at it more closely tomorrow.

Ok, I couldn't help it. I looked at some of the points you are trying to make and you are still completelly missing it.

I seriously want to strangle you through the computer monitor until you get it through your head.

I'M NOT TRYING TO TELL YOU TO SELL YOUR KC.

That and your assumptions are still completely wrong. I'll try to lay this all out clear as day tomorrow for everyone.

[Quizno]

When I was running the haste tests a while back, I did use Baha Scythe to see how it compared to Kraken with full haste. Granted I only have Level 2 Desp Blows merits (so I'm missing a potential 5%), kraken club always landed a lot more hits.

Get that last 5%...

going from 88.3 > 93.3 is an increse of like 40% hits, lol.

(5.0/12.3)*100 to be exact.

[RKenshin]

I went out of my way to say several times that this post isn't trying say go use BZ in every situation.

There were only two times when I even said BZ is better than KC in particular:

1) if you hit the haste cap which is only possible with a relic scythe.
2) if you are fighting something that requires higher accuracy than you can get via KC.

This is evidenly the problem we are having...

"Comparible" doesn't have to mean better. It just means you are no longer dealing with a situation where one weapon does 25k dmg and the other one barely hits 2k.

Personally, I'm waiting to see if level 2 merits are raised to 5/10 with a JA haste cap placed at 25%.

I'm really tired so I didn't read the whole thing, I'll look at it more closely tomorrow.

Ok, I couldn't help it. I looked at some of the points you are trying to make and you are still completelly missing it.

I seriously want to strangle you through the computer monitor until you get it through your head.

I'M NOT TRYING TO TELL YOU TO SELL YOUR KC.

That and your assumptions are still completely wrong. I'll try to lay this all out clear as day tomorrow for everyone.

No, you're the one missing it. I have and always have been arguing about the integrity of your original numbers, and everything else just developed from there as we ended up getting into related topics. Regardless, several times in each of my posts I've made a point to say this is all about correcting the calculations to represent each situation/comparison accurately.

As I said:

To clarifiy I'm not debating the utility of it as a SE weapon in general, I'm just debating the integrity of the numbers that people are using to compare the power of the various weapon options. In reading this thread I found a lot of the information interesting but the numbers I saw didn't seem right. So I checked it myself, noticed that they weren't correct (or didn't seem to be), and made posts to try to clear it up.

I'm arguing about the numbers and what they mean, that's it. Everything I've posted involves the calculations I made in the earlier posts, and you just keep taking it beyond those numbers into acc/feint/SJ/equipment isssues, etc. The whole beginning of my last post was just correcting you where you think I omitted a factor or you assume I meant something that I didn't, when it clearly wasn't the case. Then the rest of the post had very little to do with the actual numbers, and more to do with applying zerg/kraken setups at HNMs.

I spent almost all of that post just clarifying/explaining things further because you kept misunderstanding what I meant or was trying to say/prove. At this point I think we're just completely misunderstanding eachother's points/motives that we're trying to make. I'm simply trying to correct the numbers posted earlier in this thread, and then using those numbers to accurately compare the two weapons.

I don't care about which is preferred, which is better, which is better in xxx scenario, what songs are better for what when, what gear to use with what, which has more accuracy, what subjob to use, which looks cooler, which is easier to get, which matches your favorite pair of shoes, or anything else in this particular debate. I am simply debating the numbers and what they mean, that's it. That's what I've been trying to debate from the start, and I've done my best to make that clear at several points.

I'm not saying you're trying to get people to sell KClub or saying it sucks, nor have I ever said anything like that in this post, and that's what you're missing. And the last few posts you've made in response to me has shown you've missed this as you haven't been posting much of anything about what my main point is.

[Starr]

Personally, I'm waiting to see if level 2 merits are raised to 5/10 with a JA haste cap placed at 25%.

If they did this you could /DRG for extra 5% too, probably making BZ better than KC.

[Gerion]

Wait, I thought DB and Hasso were considered Delay Reduction instead of Haste. Eg

500 delay, 65% haste, 25% Delay Reduction = 500 x .35 x .75 = 131.25 delay, the same as 73.75% haste.

However, you guys are saying:

500 delay, 65% + 25% haste = 500 x .1 = 50 delay?

I never thought it stacked like that.

[Quizno]

I been gone almost a week >.<

Anyways, yes, it stacks like that (50 delay in your example).

That is how "100 scythe" as shown in the video is possible.

As far as defending my math:

Meh, I don't really see a point. The math is out there, every person can test and confirm to there hearts content.

I'm just happy the information is finally getting out there and the lights are coming on in people's heads =)