LBC Strategy recap

[Minions]

we cheat with aegis pld lol. have tried /war with him as solo tank when our other pld didnt mention he had no Magic cell till we ported up lolz... but usually he just /nins.

Last kill was with 11 as:

PLD
PLD
WHM
WHM
BRD
RDM

BLU
BLM
BLM
BLM
SAM/RNG

we usually do it with 12, but out normal brd d/c and we had to have or usual rng change to brd -.-, took a lot longer to kill

Only had 10 last time... lost the Blu too

[Rho]

Thank you everyone for your input and advice. We should be attempting the run tonight.

[Wizerd]

Thank you everyone for your input and advice. We should be attempting the run tonight.

Good luck!

[Berdysh]

It can be difficult on some people to pull off the MNK or WAR or NIN DD tank style, if your mages are not used to that sort of thing. They need to keep your tanks topped off at all times, it needs to be kept simple with enfeebles on LBC and Haste/songs on the tanks taking priority over anything else. It takes practice, but once you get it, you'll be wondering why you ever lost. From my experience, Mount Z. boss is easier on the DD tanks so you could do a run there to get it down.

If morale is dropping from repeated losses while a group gets its act together, you can always cheese it with only 10-11 still... NIN/DRK, PLD/NINs standing at the two poles, with two BLM and a RNG or some combo like that blasting away. Really easy way to get a win behind your belt, though I'd still encourage getting to where you can kill it with DD tanks for efficiency.

[Zilong]

It can be difficult on some people to pull off the MNK or WAR or NIN DD tank style, if your mages are not used to that sort of thing. They need to keep your tanks topped off at all times, it needs to be kept simple with enfeebles on LBC and Haste/songs on the tanks taking priority over anything else. It takes practice, but once you get it, you'll be wondering why you ever lost. From my experience, Mount Z. boss is easier on the DD tanks so you could do a run there to get it down.

If morale is dropping from repeated losses while a group gets its act together, you can always cheese it with only 10-11 still... NIN/DRK, PLD/NINs standing at the two poles, with two BLM and a RNG or some combo like that blasting away. Really easy way to get a win behind your belt, though I'd still encourage getting to where you can kill it with DD tanks for efficiency.

All chariots are easier than an unweakened LBC >_>

[Ayn]

This statement is like saying "If you center your Cerberus strategy around stunning Gates of Hades, you need to seriously re-evaluate how u approach the HNM."

Homing missile, like GoH IS stunnable reliably the first 6-8 times and should be a great deal of the way you try to neutralize his biggest threat. Could you beat Cerberus or Khimera without using stun for their big moves? sure you could. Would you want to? Hell no. Stun Homing missile! If you are having issues with the blm in your group stunning it, it is because he is not a good stunner. NEVER waste stun on anything but HM, so that it will land when u need it most.

I predicted someone would bring that up. I've fought Cerb and Khim numerous times, and sorry, but that's not the best example in the world. Here are some big differences:

1 - There is no way to prevent Khimaira and Cerberus from ATTEMPTING to use Gates of Hades or Fulmination. When their health dips below 25%, they'll attempt to use it. There's no if, ands, or buts about it.

You can COMPLETELY PREVENT Long-Bowed Chariot from using Homing Missile at all, as it's based on positioning. Not its health, not moon phase, but who its facing. Furthermore, it's alot easier for people to stand out of Homing Missile range than it is to avoid Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Our last fight? When the first Homing Missile went off (I believe 2 did, in total) only the tanks got hit, they were cured, the fight continued, which brings me to another point. .

2 - It is ALOT easier to recover from Homing Missile than it is to recover from Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Gates of Hades is massive damage, coupled with a severe burn effect. So you're not only struggling to deal with curing up everyone, but getting erase off in a timely fashion -- there's a high chance of someone perishing due to burn. Fulmination (if I recall correctly) not only nails you with massive damage, but a pretty severe paralyze. So now you're stuck with WHMs that are scrambling to get cures off, yet possibly getting para'd. Tanks trying to cure/recast Utsu, but getting para'd.

In the case of Homing Missile? Cure V your tanks and keep on trucking.

3 - Homing Missile (in most cases, anyway. . there appear to have been some varied reports) takes a fixed percentage of your life, if nothing's been done to tamper with LBC. Fulmination and Gates of Hades can outright *kill* you. Meaning that you have more of a margin of error / breathing space when Homing Missile goes off.

I'm sorry, but those are totally different fights. I can understand you comparing Cerb and Khim, but LBC with those two? No.

I know I'm sounding harsh, but I'm not just trying to insult or cut you down. I have seen alot of *CAPABLE* groups post on this board, who go into Salvage better prepared than they think. Yet there's such a fixation on Homing Missile and a fear of it going off that they don't realize "We can survive a few, and keep on going".

Please also don't mistake me as saying "Screw stunning Homing Missile at all". If you can work things out so that you can manage to stun it when it does happen, *awesome*! I take the same approach to Discoid with Battleclad Chariot (which is a hell of alot easier to stun than LBC): Stun it if you can (or I'll eat your children), but if you don't, we're not so fucked over that we can't continue fighting.

The people posting here are saying these things because they've fought LBC multiple times. We've tried going the route of centering everything around stunning Homing Missile. Believe it or not, despite our tones, we *do* want to see you succeed.

Hopefully that cleared things up a little more. I normally don't like going on long tangents.

[Zilong]

HM isn't 100% preventable by positioning though, I've eaten shitload of homing missile when he decides to gay it out by turn > HM rightaway.

In fact, that makes up most if not all of the homing missile we've taken, and he makes that kind of attempt like once or twice per fight.

Having a BLM on stun duty for that situation saves life.

[Odog]

You can COMPLETELY PREVENT Long-Bowed Chariot from using Homing Missile at all, as it's based on positioning. Not its health, not moon phase, but who its facing. Furthermore, it's alot easier for people to stand out of Homing Missile range than it is to avoid Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Our last fight? When the first Homing Missile went off (I believe 2 did, in total) only the tanks got hit, they were cured, the fight continued, which brings me to another point.

Not true. When LBC turns and at the same time has the amount of tp necessary to use a TP move he will simultaneously turn and use HM. The move is not preventable and it WILL happen every single time you fight LBC. In fact most groups have several HM's go off or start to go off every fight. It does not matter how fast you move, sometimes he is going to turn and use it and that is just the truth...

2 - It is ALOT easier to recover from Homing Missile than it is to recover from Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Gates of Hades is massive damage, coupled with a severe burn effect. So you're not only struggling to deal with curing up everyone, but getting erase off in a timely fashion -- there's a high chance of someone perishing due to burn. Fulmination (if I recall correctly) not only nails you with massive damage, but a pretty severe paralyze. So now you're stuck with WHMs that are scrambling to get cures off, yet possibly getting para'd. Tanks trying to cure/recast Utsu, but getting para'd.

On Cerberus (the server), we kill 75% of every pop (Khim and cerb) and it is very easy to recover from either of these TP moves. HM does the huge damage along with a hate reset. HM imho is harder to recover from (still easy) than Fulmination or GoH.

I know I'm sounding harsh, but I'm not just trying to insult or cut you down. I have seen alot of *CAPABLE* groups post on this board, who go into Salvage better prepared than they think. Yet there's such a fixation on Homing Missile and a fear of it going off that they don't realize "We can survive a few, and keep on going".

We have killed LBC roughly 10 times using the stun high importance strategy. Since that point, only 2 HM's have gotten off and it is stunned on average 2-4 times a fight. I'm not knocking anyones tanking strategy at all, but arguing that it is better to let HM go off and recover is silly when it is as easily stunned as it is. You could be flexable and consider the fact that maybe some other groups are doing some things that might make your setup and fight even smoother. I know you are going to say yours is smooth and i'm 100% you do just fine but AOE throat stab +hate reset taken out of the fight has to be a good thing right?

Ayn, I think you are just arguing that when HM does go off just have a plan ready for it so people dont panic and I couldnt agree with you more. Even a dedicated good stunner is not going to get them all. And you are 100% right that it is easy to recover from it with proper preperation. I just strongly think the fight is made loads easier when 90% the time a HM does not go off thanks to stuns, that is all.

[Minions]

You can COMPLETELY PREVENT Long-Bowed Chariot from using Homing Missile at all, as it's based on positioning. Not its health, not moon phase, but who its facing. Furthermore, it's alot easier for people to stand out of Homing Missile range than it is to avoid Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Our last fight? When the first Homing Missile went off (I believe 2 did, in total) only the tanks got hit, they were cured, the fight continued, which brings me to another point.

Not true. When LBC turns and at the same time has the amount of tp necessary to use a TP move he will simultaneously turn and use HM. The move is not preventable and it WILL happen every single time you fight LBC. In fact most groups have several HM's go off or start to go off every fight. It does not matter how fast you move, sometimes he is going to turn and use it and that is just the truth...

2 - It is ALOT easier to recover from Homing Missile than it is to recover from Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Gates of Hades is massive damage, coupled with a severe burn effect. So you're not only struggling to deal with curing up everyone, but getting erase off in a timely fashion -- there's a high chance of someone perishing due to burn. Fulmination (if I recall correctly) not only nails you with massive damage, but a pretty severe paralyze. So now you're stuck with WHMs that are scrambling to get cures off, yet possibly getting para'd. Tanks trying to cure/recast Utsu, but getting para'd.

On Cerberus (the server), we kill 75% of every pop (Khim and cerb) and it is very easy to recover from either of these TP moves. HM does the huge damage along with a hate reset. HM imho is harder to recover from (still easy) than Fulmination or GoH.

I know I'm sounding harsh, but I'm not just trying to insult or cut you down. I have seen alot of *CAPABLE* groups post on this board, who go into Salvage better prepared than they think. Yet there's such a fixation on Homing Missile and a fear of it going off that they don't realize "We can survive a few, and keep on going".

We have killed LBC roughly 10 times using the stun high importance strategy. Since that point, only 2 HM's have gotten off and it is stunned on average 2-4 times a fight. I'm not knocking anyones tanking strategy at all, but arguing that it is better to let HM go off and recover is silly when it is as easily stunned as it is. You could be flexable and consider the fact that maybe some other groups are doing some things that might make your setup and fight even smoother. I know you are going to say yours is smooth and i'm 100% you do just fine but AOE throat stab +hate reset taken out of the fight has to be a good thing right?

Ayn, I think you are just arguing that when HM does go off just have a plan ready for it so people dont panic and I couldnt agree with you more. Even a dedicated good stunner is not going to get them all. And you are 100% right that it is easy to recover from it with proper preperation. I just strongly think the fight is made loads easier when 90% the time a HM does not go off thanks to stuns, that is all.

I've killed w/o it using HM o_o

[Odog]

I would say that is very rare, but certainly possible. Just have to get lucky with the TP move he uses on the time he turns and insta-uses TP before you can reposition.

[Kerberoz]

we've got a morrigans body 2/3, usukane legs 2/3, skadi feet 2/3, and 2x marduk hands 2/3 that could all be potentially completed with an LBC win. lolrats can suck a fat one.

Ugh. In 17 Arrapago NM runs we've gotten 1 drop... marduk hands. 2/3 on 10 pieces I believe. Bosses are lol, rat NMs hate us.

I don't see why people panic over HM though... we've only succeeded in weakening it once, the rest of the time we just make sure the blms are higher up the hate list than whms. It will go off no matter what eventually; tanks will get caught off position. Make sure blms get stratus cells and have them kite it for a few moments while hate is reestablished. It only goes off 3-5 times per fight without even trying to stun it. If you bring a couple rngs you can use shadowbind to help recovery too.

[Ayn]

Ayn, I think you are just arguing that when HM does go off just have a plan ready for it so people dont panic and I couldnt agree with you more. Even a dedicated good stunner is not going to get them all. And you are 100% right that it is easy to recover from it with proper preperation. I just strongly think the fight is made loads easier when 90% the time a HM does not go off thanks to stuns, that is all.

Yeah, that's basically what I'm getting at. I apologize if it was unclear.

[alphacat]

You can COMPLETELY PREVENT Long-Bowed Chariot from using Homing Missile at all, as it's based on positioning. Not its health, not moon phase, but who its facing. Furthermore, it's alot easier for people to stand out of Homing Missile range than it is to avoid Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Our last fight? When the first Homing Missile went off (I believe 2 did, in total) only the tanks got hit, they were cured, the fight continued, which brings me to another point.

Not true. When LBC turns and at the same time has the amount of tp necessary to use a TP move he will simultaneously turn and use HM. The move is not preventable and it WILL happen every single time you fight LBC. In fact most groups have several HM's go off or start to go off every fight. It does not matter how fast you move, sometimes he is going to turn and use it and that is just the truth...

2 - It is ALOT easier to recover from Homing Missile than it is to recover from Gates of Hades or Fulmination. Gates of Hades is massive damage, coupled with a severe burn effect. So you're not only struggling to deal with curing up everyone, but getting erase off in a timely fashion -- there's a high chance of someone perishing due to burn. Fulmination (if I recall correctly) not only nails you with massive damage, but a pretty severe paralyze. So now you're stuck with WHMs that are scrambling to get cures off, yet possibly getting para'd. Tanks trying to cure/recast Utsu, but getting para'd.

On Cerberus (the server), we kill 75% of every pop (Khim and cerb) and it is very easy to recover from either of these TP moves. HM does the huge damage along with a hate reset. HM imho is harder to recover from (still easy) than Fulmination or GoH.

I know I'm sounding harsh, but I'm not just trying to insult or cut you down. I have seen alot of *CAPABLE* groups post on this board, who go into Salvage better prepared than they think. Yet there's such a fixation on Homing Missile and a fear of it going off that they don't realize "We can survive a few, and keep on going".

We have killed LBC roughly 10 times using the stun high importance strategy. Since that point, only 2 HM's have gotten off and it is stunned on average 2-4 times a fight. I'm not knocking anyones tanking strategy at all, but arguing that it is better to let HM go off and recover is silly when it is as easily stunned as it is. You could be flexable and consider the fact that maybe some other groups are doing some things that might make your setup and fight even smoother. I know you are going to say yours is smooth and i'm 100% you do just fine but AOE throat stab +hate reset taken out of the fight has to be a good thing right?

Ayn, I think you are just arguing that when HM does go off just have a plan ready for it so people dont panic and I couldnt agree with you more. Even a dedicated good stunner is not going to get them all. And you are 100% right that it is easy to recover from it with proper preperation. I just strongly think the fight is made loads easier when 90% the time a HM does not go off thanks to stuns, that is all.

I've killed w/o it using HM o_o

Same thing happened yesterday XD 0 Homing went off, so killing all those gears on 4F felt like a major waste of time lol

[Waef]

If you killed all the gears...Why don't you just stand in front of it so that it can HM instead of more devastating attacks? (Unless you were and it still didn't use it at all..)

[divisortheory]

Same thing happened yesterday XD 0 Homing went off, so killing all those gears on 4F felt like a major waste of time lol

It's not a waste of time if you entered the Dormant Rampart.

[Rho]

Welp, time for a little report on how it went.

We had some technical difficulties and as a result we went in with only one WHM. Given, I know that's already a recipe for a tough if not impossible fight though I wanted to see how far we could get anyhow. At the very least the group could get some practical experience.

PT1: RDM WHM MNK MNK PLD BRD
PT2: RDM BLM BLM BLM RNG SMN*

*I know SMN really isn't a super efficient job to bring, but it's the only job the player had. At worst, we had another status cure with our 2nd WHM being absent.

Farming went fine and at a decent pace. Not a single hand cell drop oddly enough. Plenty of Opacus, magic, subjobs. MP cells were a bit of an issue though as we only got 3 before the boss. A mistake on my part probably. The central large room on the third floor has puddings which could drop MP, right?

We got to floor 4 with plenty of time to try nerfing LBC. The kills were slightly slow but still within time. We had a problem though on the 4th and 5th gears, as the 5th gear linked and teleported when I pulled the 4th. The two gears were pretty close together for a good time and didn't seem to want to seperate, so I just went for it.

Once one gear had warped I decided to port us up. Upon heading to the porter I realized something: The other 5 Archaic Gear mobs are placed in rooms after the room with the Archaic Gears(triple) and Archaic Chariot. So in order to kill the other 5 single gears, you have to get the whole ally through there.

Those who have fought these gears: Do you simply kill the stuff in the big rectangle room? If not, how do you avoid agro to get to the other set of single gears?

We arrived at LBC with 33 minutes to go. Plenty of time for a kill, I just wanted to play it safe considering how we were down a bit.

The hate shedding on LBC is no joke from what I learned. Our MNKs did have Hades Sainti. Both used a gear setup which put more emphasis on subtle blow and enmity than anything.

We seemed to handle the normal TP moves relatively well. However, with only WHM to Cure V, we were left to resort with Cure3s from time to time.

As a result, hate soon became an issue. We lost a couple of mages early, and the chariot turned far more than it should have.

In the end, we got it down to 60%. For a first time with this group, I can't be too disappointed. Other groups don't get it close to that low on their first try.

So some questions I have for the peanut gallery:

1) Do you swear by Cure V's only (with the exception of PLD cures perhaps) for this fight until the near end?

2) Someone here suggested Hundred Fists at the start rather than at the end. Which does your group do?

3) Should BLMs only nuke/RNG only shoot at the end in a straight tank strategy, or should they nuke earlier on also. If earlier on, what would you say is a decent "pace" for BLM damage?

4) How does your group get to the second half of Archaic Gear mobs?

Thanks again for taking your time to check this out and reply. We're serious about getting this done right and with some adjustments I'm confident we can bring it down in the near future.

[divisortheory]

Once one gear had warped I decided to port us up.

This was a mistake. Killing only some of the gears still weakens it.

Those who have fought these gears: Do you simply kill the stuff in the big rectangle room? If not, how do you avoid agro to get to the other set of single gears?

As a THF, I hit flee, gather the room and then run back toward the entrance. Everyone else runs through the room. I keep going until I lose aggro on everything, which then resets. I slowly follow it back toward the center until it resets, and once it has completely reset I sneak around the sides of the walls to the other side.

[Rho]

I know there's a weakened HM effect for 9/10, but has anyone confirmed weakness for 8 or lower? It seems you can only miss one.

Thank you for the flee-train advice on the large room. I'll implement that on next run.

[Ferien]

Once one gear had warped I decided to port us up.

This was a mistake. Killing only some of the gears still weakens it.

Wait what? I thought you had to kill them all to nerf HM. What happens if you only kill some of them?

[divisortheory]

Once one gear had warped I decided to port us up.

This was a mistake. Killing only some of the gears still weakens it.

Wait what? I thought you had to kill them all to nerf HM. What happens if you only kill some of them?

I'm pretty sure it's scattered over the last few pages of the bhaflau thread. It seems to be that each gear killed weakens it by some percentage, with 10 gears being a full weakening.

know there's a weakened HM effect for 9/10, but has anyone confirmed weakness for 8 or lower? It seems you can only miss one.

AFAIK, it was confirmed in the Bhaflau thread. I may search for it later, or you can look over the last few pages. It might have been Lhexh that posted it, I can't remember.