Absolute Virtue Theory

[Suiram]

I know what he's saying. And I'm saying that what Lhexh is saying is that AV himself Mijin's as well as the wynavs. If Lhexh worded it poorly then my bad, but the way it's worded is that there's 4 mobs that can use Mijin Gakure. 3 Wynavs and Absolute Virtue. All 4 of them will only use Mijin if the wynavs are out.

Lhexh worded it in a way that would be perfectly understood by anyone who had fought AV for longer than the 90 seconds it takes to kill everyone and the 3 minutes it takes to depop after JoL dies. Absolute Virtue does use Mijin Gakure, however just as Manafont doesn't give players access to Meteor and Comet, just as Dragoons can only call one wyvern with Call Wyvern, just as Astral Flow doesn't suddenly give a SMN's Garuda 300% TP, AV's Mijin differs from players' and other NIN mobs', in that rather than dealing AoE damage proportional to his current HP, it triggers his pets to use Mijin Gakure and thereby deal AoE damage proportional to their respective HP.

Absolute Virtue uses Mijin Gakure. [Actually, because the mechanics are different from regular Mijin, this is a separate dialog entry in the Al'Taieu .dats]
The Aern's Wynav uses Mijin Gakure. [Standard mechanics]
The Aern's Wynav uses Mijin Gakure.
The Aern's Wynav uses Mijin Gakure.

So 4 mijins, but only 3 doing damage.

[Spekkio]

also, there's one 2 hr that is also clearly dependent upon the mobs up. he won't try to throw call wyvern as long as he has his current max number of wyverns out (3 at the start and more later iirc. the times we've popped him, i don't think we even tried to fight him, just let him steamroll us. ow. ^^) so it's a given that the wyverns have some impact on what 2 hrs he will use.

i'd always suspected that the way it was set up was that he chose which 2 hr he'd use next and would keep that held as his next choice until used. this lead to the behavior of him selecting mijin or astral flow or familiar or the like, but losing his wyverns before he executed it. AV wouldn't select a new 2 hr until he used his last, but he can't use his last till he can use call wyvern, a 2 hr. cyclic loop, he never uses 2 hrs again. all of this, however, is pure speculation, and probably holds about as much water as a bucket without a bottom.

[divisortheory]

Has anyone ever personally seen him use something other than Mijin Gakure while Wynavs are out? If that's the only thing he uses, it might be possible to a) Disable Meteor by killing the BLM Aern, b) Get the wynavs down to very low HP and then hold them indefinitely (assuming you can find a way to deal with the shared hate). The shared hate thing might not be so bad if you can find a way to keep yourself high enough in the Wynav's hate queue that they stay on you most of the time. Maybe a PLD/NIN would work best for this, you could have a BRD giving them that Sirvente shit to increase their hate, and use BLM to stun their ga spells. Then AV would just keep using Mijin Gakure for the rest of the fight but it would always be fairly weak.

[Spekkio]

Has anyone ever personally seen him use something other than Mijin Gakure while Wynavs are out? If that's the only thing he uses, it might be possible to a) Disable Meteor by killing the BLM Aern, b) Get the wynavs down to very low HP and then hold them indefinitely (assuming you can find a way to deal with the shared hate). The shared hate thing might not be so bad if you can find a way to keep yourself high enough in the Wynav's hate queue that they stay on you most of the time. Maybe a PLD/NIN would work best for this, you could have a BRD giving them that Sirvente shit to increase their hate, and use BLM to stun their ga spells. Then AV would just keep using Mijin Gakure for the rest of the fight but it would always be fairly weak.

sounds interesting, but do we know if the wynavs stun? not trying to rain on your parade, but since i don't think you can stun any jailer, nor many of the ix, i'd be suspect if the wynavs stunned either.

[OMGimataru]

If Wynavs don't appear when AV spawns does that mean anything?

I still think jailer weapons on JoL is the key 8)

[Khamsin]

Has anyone ever personally seen him use something other than Mijin Gakure while Wynavs are out? If that's the only thing he uses, it might be possible to a) Disable Meteor by killing the BLM Aern, b) Get the wynavs down to very low HP and then hold them indefinitely (assuming you can find a way to deal with the shared hate). The shared hate thing might not be so bad if you can find a way to keep yourself high enough in the Wynav's hate queue that they stay on you most of the time. Maybe a PLD/NIN would work best for this, you could have a BRD giving them that Sirvente shit to increase their hate, and use BLM to stun their ga spells. Then AV would just keep using Mijin Gakure for the rest of the fight but it would always be fairly weak.

He uses whatever he wants whenever he wants regardless of how many wynavs are up or not up. Except Mijin Gakure when they're not up, and Call Wyvern when they are up. I forget if he uses Astral Flow or Familiar when he has no wynavs.

[Amele]

it would surprise me if he ever has used familiar without wynavs although the absence of proof is not necessarily refutation.

[Demosthenes11]

1) Wasn't the aern theory debunked on this very page?

Killed all the Om'aerns around AV and did not notice a lock of anything at all. As a matter of fact he still Manafont'd and meteor'd us all to death a few times.

2) AV doesn't give a shit if his aerns are out except for mijin, call wyvern, and possibly familiar/astral flow as has been pointed out. I've personally seen him mijin, mighty strikes, hundred fists, etc with his wyverns out.

3) The wyverns are shared hate with AV, so it is nearly impossible to have others hold them. A shadowbind order really isn't realistic with 3 wyverns + the shadowbind timer. It's much easier to just nuke them down when they pop up.

4) As has been said before, the only problems blocking a potential AV kill are meteor/comet + benediction. We have gotten AV down to 79% I think I 2 occasions now and then gotten completely dominated by meteor especially. While benediction hasn't cockblocked anybody from killing AV yet, I think it very well could be a potential problem. Everything else is really a non-issue.

[Dwyer]

1) Wasn't the aern theory debunked on this very page?

Killed all the Om'aerns around AV and did not notice a lock of anything at all. As a matter of fact he still Manafont'd and meteor'd us all to death a few times.

my 0.02:

My understanding of what I have read is it is only affecting AV when the Aerns are UP (they are paired so which ever of the pairs is currently alive).

If they are dead maybe AV is allowed to use 2hrs from either of the types?
And by having one alive you restrict him to that particular one?

(I have no actual experience so flame me if you want )

[Kris]

Kris's theory of basic steps to defeat AV:

1. Pop AV
2. Train AV to front gate
3. Hold AV with tanks under gate
4. Mages stand at the top of the gate
5. Nuke/Heal/Ranged Attack/etc. from top and zone to shed hate
6. Profit?!

P.S. - AV's AoE moves will not hit mages at the top of the bridge.

With some top-notch tanks and well organized strat I think this might work.

[divisortheory]

1) Wasn't the aern theory debunked on this very page?

Killed all the Om'aerns around AV and did not notice a lock of anything at all. As a matter of fact he still Manafont'd and meteor'd us all to death a few times.

The above quote did indeed come from the same page, but the above quote also did not follow what the original proposer of the theory suggested.

[Spekkio]

Kris's theory of basic steps to defeat AV:

1. Pop AV
2. Train AV to front gate
3. Hold AV with tanks under gate
4. Mages stand at the top of the gate
5. Nuke/Heal/Ranged Attack/etc. from top and zone to shed hate
6. Profit?!

P.S. - AV's AoE moves will not hit mages at the top of the bridge.

With some top-notch tanks and well organized strat I think this might work.

outside of the old problem of benediction that we always seem to get back to, this sounds very plausible. still, you have to survive aeroga4, meteor, etc, but at least this solves the problem of how to get close enough to cure tanks w/o dying. as for zoning, i doubt if that will quite clear hate, but it's faster than logging. see a prior post of mine talking about ix'drg for my explanation on zoning hate if you're interested.

[Dwyer]

Kris's theory of basic steps to defeat AV:

1. Pop AV
2. Train AV to front gate
3. Hold AV with tanks under gate
4. Mages stand at the top of the gate
5. Nuke/Heal/Ranged Attack/etc. from top and zone to shed hate
6. Profit?!

P.S. - AV's AoE moves will not hit mages at the top of the bridge.

With some top-notch tanks and well organized strat I think this might work.

outside of the old problem of benediction that we always seem to get back to, this sounds very plausible. still, you have to survive aeroga4, meteor, etc, but at least this solves the problem of how to get close enough to cure tanks w/o dying. as for zoning, i doubt if that will quite clear hate, but it's faster than logging. see a prior post of mine talking about ix'drg for my explanation on zoning hate if you're interested.

Would this be to similar to the wall hack? IE bannable?

[Lyramion]

No it wouldnt because if one of your mage grabs hate AV could just walk up to you. The Wallhack made AV stuck in the Wall so it couldnt reach you at all.


Maybe you remember old Cerberus fights? People used to be on top and not get hit - noone ever got in trouble for that. They added a worse draw-in effect tho after some time.

[Dwyer]

No it wouldnt because if one of your mage grabs hate AV could just wlak up to you. The Wallhack made AV stuck in the Wall so it couldnt reach you at all.


Maybe you remember old Cerberus fights? People used to be on top and not get hit - noone ever got in trouble for that. They added a worse draw-in effect tho after some time.

touche.

[Kris]

To give you some insight to my strat since my LS tried it once with limited numbers~ (15-18 people, 7-8 blms)

We basically held AV at the bottom with lv. 1 jobs while we nuked down wyverns hoping for a lock, tho he always just resummoned them; cleared 5 sets of them too this way with blms just nuking them down and zoning. We did try doing timed nukes on AV tho he generally just regenned his HP back by the time we zoned back out.

What is really needed is to have people holding his wyverns away from the main groups with plenty of backup. Extremely good tanks and backup tanks who can hold AV (healers above(alot of them) can just plain spam cure spells at them). Then you just need a butt-load of blms who can be switched into the alliance in PTs to nuke their mp out and zone(you do lose hate).

Personally if you got the jobs/people/talent this is a very viable strat.

If you use this strat to beat him please note some credit to me >.>!

[Kaylia]

2 question about wynav. What happen if 2/3 are dead? Is it resummoning them like Ix'Drg?

Also, did anyone ever saw AV uses spirit link on his wyvern? Never saw anyone confirm it, even if it was mentioned a few time.

[Mojo]

Yes, it will. I have some info I'd like to post but I need a bit to gather it all.

Edit: Yes it will > resummon. I've never seen it do spirit link.

[Projekt.Ein]

Funny how people put off the Aern theory, cause they have doubts, even when it wasn't performed correctly.

You have to HOLD THE RDM(ALIVE). To supposedly keep AV from using Manafont.

I'd try it... but my old LS still does 4hr+ Kirin's let alone JoL's(although our first JoL was 4hr's also)... nobody wants to stay and test after that lol.

[bamiman]

Funny how people put off the Aern theory, cause they have doubts, even when it wasn't performed correctly.

You have to HOLD THE RDM(ALIVE). To supposedly keep AV from using Manafont.

I'd try it... but my old LS still does 4hr+ Kirin's let alone JoL's(although our first JoL was 4hr's also)... nobody wants to stay and test after that lol.

THANK YOU.... i've been trying to stress this. But i have heard rumours that he will do Chainspell as opposed to Manafont and still use Comet/Meteor from another trustworthy LS on my server... Whether they did it exact to what i specified and kept the rdm alive the entire time, idk for sure. But we are still going to go for this for my LS when AV pops next for us. After every attempt we do I will make posts about it. Only thing is AV never pops for us so we are doomed to "leech" attempts from other LS on server after they "give up" trying stuff out /sigh.............