Absolute Virtue Theory

[Elipse]

I don't see how killing Aerns near him would help, when I fought AV with around 20, we immediately -ga'd the Aerns when AV popped so they wouldnt get in the way. He still 2hr'd like a bitch

Pre or post AV ninja-nerf?

What we're going to do is make a list of every stupid theory we can think of, wait til our next AV pop and scratch them off the list going down the line. So If thats post, then one less thing to have to test out when AV pops and starts the exp rape.

[Changz]

When those 2 hrs went off, were the respective Aerns currently dead? Or did a 2 hr go off and you guys were like "well we killed that one last time, so it should have been locked"?. If that wasn't clear, was the Whm Aern currently dead when Benediction went off? Was Ninja mob dead when Mijin Gakure went off? That type of thing.

Also, the 3 Aerns at JoL spawn. One theory that was brought up is that they might be related to more than regen. 3 Aerns for WS/Magic/2 hrs. So, Were they currently dead when say, spells weaponskills or 2hrs were going off?

I think specific answers to those would help us clear up some theories on the aerns and get us looking in different directions for answers on how to kill it. (if it can even be killed, but the Devs are probably blowing smoke up our asses)

I don't mind answering questions and that's something we did look at. With the 3 aerns dead prior to pop and AV in alcove, we watched to see if he 2houred in the 5min prior to repop. He did with random ones. The 3 aerns in the alcove are RDM, NIN, and a cycled THF/MNK if I remember correctly, at work at the moment. This one was a pretty easy test to do and just as easy to double check if you want to verify also, I won't be offended. 8)

[Yutuyu]

Allah's interview: "Pikko: Chains of Promathia came out nearly 3 years ago and as of today, no linkshell has beaten Absolute Virtue without the invisible wall or the locking technique, both of which were changed. When you originally created Absolute Virtue, did you intend for him to go undefeated for such a long period of time and is he meant to be defeated at all?

Ogawa-san & Tanaka-san: When we first designed it we didn’t design it to never be able to be defeated and we’re convinced that it can be defeated. Last year at the Tokyo Game Show hints were given and whether those were taken as hints or not, well… Some players were able to figure out some things from it but there were other hints that not a lot of people have picked up on and so its become sort of this urban myth that Absolute Virtue cannot be defeated, but it can be defeated."



FFXI Encyclopedia's interview:

"Absolute Virtue....

::laughs::: Never ask questions about Absolute Virtue :::laughs:::

Absolute Virtue is now believed to be completely invincible. No methods have been discovered on how to defeat him, with the majority of the end-game community from North America, Japan and Europe at a complete loss as to what to try. Some minor information about his Regen was released, but it appears that he has been modified without any announcements. How can we defeat him? We've had over a year without learning his secret, it is about time some real information is released. Are there any more tips you can give us about this NM?

We cannot give you any other tips besides if you kill the monsters around him, it will slow the regen ability.

Do you believe it is possible to beat him?

We haven't made it so that it's impossible. We still believe ::crosses fingers:: we still believe that there is a possibility that people will be able to defeat him. People just haven't found the right strategy. At the next Fan Festival we'll have the dev team defeat Absolute Virtue (not a good idea)... maybe some videos... no....

Are you afraid that they won't win?
No comment."

[spooky]

Thanks for reposting something everyone has already read.

[Yutuyu]

EDIT: I thought it'd be helpful to have the actual words in their context with the thread. Yeah, they were discussed and quoted throughout, but never the full length that I saw. Sorry if I'm desire to help the discussion has offended you?



As far as the background of Absolute Virtue goes, it's broke down simply like this.

Discussion of virtue (or character ethics) all began with the ancient Greeks. For those who don't know, the names used by the Zilart all resemble greek-like names in structure. Altana and Promathia are a sort of blending of various names in greek mythology, Promathia possibly having similiarites in the root name of Prometheus (who happened to share similarities in the mythologies as well). In the Ancient Greek virtue ideology, there were not 7 full virtues.

The Christians later on who inherited the intellectual traditions from the greeks modified them and actually added a few. So what we're dealing with probably borrows more from that modified virtue system, the christian mindset.

In the original Greek mindset, absolute virtue had a lot to do with the theory of the forms, et cetera. Unknownable transcendental concepts, absolute truths, which were incapable of taking concrete form (because the very taking of concrete form makes something imperfect and fallible, according to the theory of the forms).

In the Christian mindset Absolute Virtue is God. God is the only being capable of perfection.

What does all of this mean? Not much useful.

It does kind of point to Absolute Virtue being undefeatable, but SE continually denies this. Oddly, you obtain the title "Virtuous Saint" from defeating him (which again points at the Christian Model, sainthood is a catholic concept, merely being virtuous would be a Greek one). Though admittedly It doesn't make much sense to be called a "Virtuous Saint" as a result of murdering God.

[spooky]

...

What does all of this mean? Not much useful.

Got that tright. >:s

It does kind of point to Absolute Virtue being undefeatable.

Not really.

Oddly, you obtain the title "Virtuous Saint" from defeating him (which again points at the Christian Model...

Oh dear.

[Yutuyu]

God is generally considered to be unkilliable. >.>

[spooky]

Sorry if [my] desire to help the discussion has offended you?

It doesn't offened me, just this dead hourse topic. Seriously people just wait, SE will come around; just like they did with Goblin drink.

[Yutuyu]

After the next expansion is released, I'm sure they'll mention it.

Having something which is unkillable is a common thing in MMOs, it makes people feel like there's a challenge out there they haven't completed, something left to be done, which keeps subscribers busy (or feeling imcomplete). Pretty good for revenue.

Feeling like you've conquered everything leads to cancelling your subscription.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Though admittedly It doesn't make much sense to be called a "Virtuous Saint" as a result of murdering God.

You're not murdering them, you're defeating them! This is a fantasy setting where violence solves everything, so you're proving your worth to a god-like being!

[Spekkio]

let's try to rerail this to actual useful discussions. historically, SE's implementations of mythical creatures is limited to the name and general design of a mob, not the method for killing it. one example is the shijin series in sky leading up to kirin which is, at least as i understand it, not canonically linked to the 4 shijin of the compass directions. another is jormundgand, who is neither in the water (or even water based for that matter), nor does he require mijolner to defeat. while conversations about the history from which SE may derive their mob/item names and models from are interesting, taking them as hints is probably not that great an idea.

also, to elipse, as long as you're willing to put your money where your mouth is so to speak and try these yourself, i'm happy to entertain any questions that i can answer. these threads generally degrade when people reduce to "HAY GUYZ! U SHULD TRY 2 TRADE VIRTUE STONZ 2 TEH EBON PANELZ!!!11!!!1!LOLERSKATEZ" keep asking away and i think most people here will try to answer with their own experiences. there's nobody here who would like to see this mob remain unkillable, but understandably, real HNM ls are tired of listening to lvl 60 players who think that hakutaku is an HNM order everyone to put lolmelee whm with prudence rods in their hands on AV.

[Demosthenes11]

It's broken

[Elipse]

let's try to rerail this to actual useful discussions. historically, SE's implementations of mythical creatures is limited to the name and general design of a mob, not the method for killing it. one example is the shijin series in sky leading up to kirin which is, at least as i understand it, not canonically linked to the 4 shijin of the compass directions. another is jormundgand, who is neither in the water (or even water based for that matter), nor does he require mijolner to defeat. while conversations about the history from which SE may derive their mob/item names and models from are interesting, taking them as hints is probably not that great an idea.

also, to elipse, as long as you're willing to put your money where your mouth is so to speak and try these yourself, i'm happy to entertain any questions that i can answer. these threads generally degrade when people reduce to "HAY GUYZ! U SHULD TRY 2 TRADE VIRTUE STONZ 2 TEH EBON PANELZ!!!11!!!1!LOLERSKATEZ" keep asking away and i think most people here will try to answer with their own experiences. there's nobody here who would like to see this mob remain unkillable, but understandably, real HNM ls are tired of listening to lvl 60 players who think that hakutaku is an HNM order everyone to put lolmelee whm with prudence rods in their hands on AV.

Well, we've had 11-12 JoL kills I believe. I can't keep track anymore but I'm close on that and only 2 AV pops. So our actual time to play around with AV has been limited. In the past, other than playing around with it a bit, the feeling has been just leave it to depop and save our exp.

However, since the interviews, some discussion has popped up on our LS forums and the general feeling is they want to start giving it a shot to trying things out instead of letting it depop. I lead my LS where my LS wants to go. So, If they have interest (as they clearly have shown me) in giving AV a shot, then we'll do so.

So, that being said I do like to plan ahead and I don't like to go in blind. So when it comes to asking questions, it isn't because i'm wanting to sound like a jerk or belittle anyones efforts. I'm asking because very clear details are going to be needed if we're going to test some things out. Someone saying "We tried jailer weapons, it doens't work" isn't clear enough for me.

How were the weapons used? What jobs used them? What skill chains were created? What day of the week was it and did the element of that skill chain match? Was it bursted? Was it bursted with the same element of the same day? How about Jailer weapons on the Aerns? The yovras? etc etc.

Details and clearly going step by step over things post patch is the key to seeing if we can actually find anything out. What I plan to do is create a list before our next JoL pop of each theory and exactly how we plan to test them out. Basically to follow the process of elimination to see if anything sticks out.

In terms of the community itself, I have followed and read probably every single AV topic posted on these forums. I have yet to see anyone document clearly how they tested everything. I'll see a post like "Oh we tried Jailer weapons.. did nothing" with horrible details and no outline of what they tried exactly and then every post from then on makes fun of anyone that even thinks to mention jailer weapons.

Anyway, I don't know when we'll see another AV pop for my shell. Might take 2 months, but it doesn't hurt to discuss what we know. If people here are uninterested, I'll stop posting anything here about AV and just take it in house on our LS forums. Lets start with what we know

We know Aerns are not affecting the 2hrs, magic or WS's of AV. As posted here by Changz.
We know the old zerg method no longer applies to locking them. This was documented by TK right after the patch.

What else do we really know in detail to be able to eliminate from the list of theories?

Forget the theories for a second, but can anyone else remember testing something specific post patch with their LS that we can pup up here with certainty? If so, please provide details. Without details, doesn't really help eliminate it.

Beyond what we know, speaking of theories, I think for now lets focus on what we know. Too many posts on these forums about theories and lists upon lists can already be compiled without new posts (new posts that will piss off the board mods who are sick of stupid AV threads).

Sorry if I'm sounding like a jerk at all. I'm only looking to create a baseline of what knowledge the community actually has and then work from there. In the end this could be a complete waste of time, forgive me if thats how this all turns out.

[japetus]

I'm only looking to create a baseline of what knowledge the community actually has and then work from there.

This is something I've supported for a long time now and definitely agree. Our LS has around ~10 JoLs and 4 AV pops: 2 pre-patch, 2 post-patch. We threw several thousand exp at the first 3, and semi-locked the 3rd, and didn't bother with the 4th.

The problem is that all the useful, first-hand information is buried in the old 40+ page threads where people actually cared when AV popped. Since then, its been a game of telephone where people start passing off misinformation as common knowledge.

Honestly, the best way to get something like this started is to go dig up those old threads and compile it yourself.

[Khamsin]

Next time someone starts a thread based on something solid, like hints given out in SE interviews and fanfests or plausible scenarios that don't involve numerology and convoluted math to bridge the logic gap, then people will take it seriously and might actually try something. There just simply hasn't been anything (non-idiotic) to try.

This was based off a hint given in an se interview, alla got it off this line from pikko's interview:

We cannot give you any other tips besides if you kill the monsters around him, it will slow the regen ability.

They said "monsters around him" not "15 yovra all throughout northern and southern Al'Taieu". The OP then proceeded to attempt to bridge the logic gap with numerology.

God is generally considered to be unkilliable. >.>

Capcom and Square tend to say otherwise. Maybe godslaying is a common theme in Japan.

[Tulun]

Out of curiousity, what the hell is his regen naturally anyway that it has to apparently be enfeebed through 10,000 different ways? Jesus.

[Slott]

Try killing phuabos/hpemde's around AV: By around, i mean pull them near him (to wherever you fight AV) and kill them near him. My LS killed them near zone in to al taieu. Whether or not it needs to be within the same ally, I don't know. On our successful AV kill, that's the one thing we haven't yet tried to recreate due to overlooking it (accidental aggroing of mobs and killing a phuabo + a hpemde getting linked while ga-3ing wynavs) We have tried everything else, from skillchains of the same day, opposite day, timing wynav kills, etc etc.

have fun

[Elipse]

I'm only looking to create a baseline of what knowledge the community actually has and then work from there.

This is something I've supported for a long time now and definitely agree. Our LS has around ~10 JoLs and 4 AV pops: 2 pre-patch, 2 post-patch. We threw several thousand exp at the first 3, and semi-locked the 3rd, and didn't bother with the 4th.

The problem is that all the useful, first-hand information is buried in the old 40+ page threads where people actually cared when AV popped. Since then, its been a game of telephone where people start passing off misinformation as common knowledge.

Honestly, the best way to get something like this started is to go dig up those old threads and compile it yourself.

Except the problem is, we don't know if any of that information is valid. Its valid in the sense that "AV uses all the 2 hrs" and "Meteor spam at 79%" but in terms of "How to lock it" we have no good valid recent info post patch. LS's basically popped it, attempted to glitch it like it used to work, saw that it didnt' work and went "Screw this" and gave up on AV.

Someone posted above saying that the only way to kill AV will be to lock these abilities. I agree with this person. So if we take the assumption that AV can be killed, then locking the spells, 2hrs and WS's would be the only way to take it down.

So assuming the interviews are correct, that AV can be defeated, then its fair to assume that AV can still be locked in some way. The problem we have now, is that anythign that didn't work to lock ws's, magic, or 2 hrs prepatch, might actually work to lock them now. It might have simply been broken before and now they fixed the code on it (also fixing the glitchy code that allowed AV to sometimes lock up when being zerged to 95%). I don't think its valid to include any such tests that occured prepatch because the coding could be all different now. So as easy as it would be to just reread all the old threads (I have plenty of time to burn at work), I don't think much of it could be counted on as valid tests if it wasn't post patch.

As a side note that reminded me of something we could very likely say "we know" based on the old way of locking AV. That WS/Magic/2hrs can be locked independantly of one another. LS's reported locking 2hrs but not magic, etc etc. Which suggests that the codes original intention was to allow you to lock one or the other and just got screwed up and glitchy. Might be too many assumptions in that, but that might suggest multiple methods to lock AV.

One of the first things to check out or test, is to see if killing enough aerns affects his regen at all. If so, perhaps killing enough phaubos, xzomits and hpmedes could have an effect on other aspects of AV. Thats pure tossed out theory, but another thing to add to the list.

Anyone else have some post patch details or experiences they wish to share? Perhaps we can glean some information from them that will be useful.

[japetus]

Except the problem is, we don't know if any of that information is valid. Its valid in the sense that "AV uses all the 2 hrs" and "Meteor spam at 79%" but in terms of "How to lock it" we have no good valid recent info post patch. LS's basically popped it, attempted to glitch it like it used to work, saw that it didnt' work and went "Screw this" and gave up on AV.

I meant more along the lines of mob behavior, not locking methods.

For example:
Which enfeebles work on AV?
Shadowbind
Dia/Bio?

Which enfeebles work on wynavs?
All?

How strongly (if at all) do they share hate?

Two hour anomalies:
Astral Flow - wynavs TP?
Soul Voice - wynavs Virelai
Mijin Gakure - only wynavs Mijin?


We have not tried any of the old locking theories post-patch besides wynav slaughtering.

[Spekkio]

maybe looking at this in another direction can tell us something. how was it locked before? i seem to remember that before the patch, killing all 3 wynavs at once was one way to lock it, the other being to blow off 5% of his hp in a very short span (before some action was taken maybe?) this broke AV's behavior. in a lot of other fields from software design on down to the minting practices of the US Mint, mistakes tell us a lot about the process that goes into producing or operating something. if killing the wynavs at the same time caused a lock for no apparent reason, it's possible that the wynavs are designed to lock it in some way. it's just that killing the wynavs all together caused an unusual behavior. on the other hand, it's possible that the wynavs were involved in his behavior scripting and their lack of presence created a loop. without knowing the scripting structure of mobs in this game more precisely, wild conjecture is about the best i can put out, however. thus only examining the wynavs would be utter foolishness, but paying some heed to them may be worthwhile. were there other ways to lock him?

it may be worth noting that much of the end of CoP's mob scripting was somewhat unusual. first to come to my mind is promaethea. he had an interesting penchant to use his AoE stun move right after being WSed, the upshot of this was that it barred us from making a skillchain. waiting for whatever his name was, flying around to use his lance attack, paralyzing promaethea, allowed us to move in for a skillchain and MB. i can't think of any other mobs in the game that require that much planning to take down. on the other hand, love, and most other jailers are fairly straightforward with little kitch, possibly invalidating this argument.