Absolute Virtue Theory

[Slott]

maybe looking at this in another direction can tell us something. how was it locked before? i seem to remember that before the patch, killing all 3 wynavs at once was one way to lock it, the other being to blow off 5% of his hp in a very short span (before some action was taken maybe?) this broke AV's behavior. in a lot of other fields from software design on down to the minting practices of the US Mint, mistakes tell us a lot about the process that goes into producing or operating something. if killing the wynavs at the same time caused a lock for no apparent reason, it's possible that the wynavs are designed to lock it in some way. it's just that killing the wynavs all together caused an unusual behavior. on the other hand, it's possible that the wynavs were involved in his behavior scripting and their lack of presence created a loop. without knowing the scripting structure of mobs in this game more precisely, wild conjecture is about the best i can put out, however. thus only examining the wynavs would be utter foolishness, but paying some heed to them may be worthwhile. were there other ways to lock him?

it may be worth noting that much of the end of CoP's mob scripting was somewhat unusual. first to come to my mind is promaethea. he had an interesting penchant to use his AoE stun move right after being WSed, the upshot of this was that it barred us from making a skillchain. waiting for whatever his name was, flying around to use his lance attack, paralyzing promaethea, allowed us to move in for a skillchain and MB. i can't think of any other mobs in the game that require that much planning to take down. on the other hand, love, and most other jailers are fairly straightforward with little kitch, possibly invalidating this argument.

wrong on wynavs wrong on taking 5% off. Taking 5% hp off him kills his regen rate, wynavs killing together...eh occasionally he'd bug out but you could more often than not have him continuously spawn 40 sets of wynavs without any effect (both pre and post patch) something had to occur to make him stop spawning wynavs, since that's considered a 2hr for him. Seriously, just try killing normal sea mobs around him...prob the best bet at the moment. And when AV would bug out, he wouldnt lose everything, sometimes he'd lose spells, sometimes he'd lose 2 hours, meaning it's not all related to one thing.

[Elipse]

maybe looking at this in another direction can tell us something. how was it locked before? i seem to remember that before the patch, killing all 3 wynavs at once was one way to lock it, the other being to blow off 5% of his hp in a very short span (before some action was taken maybe?) this broke AV's behavior. in a lot of other fields from software design on down to the minting practices of the US Mint, mistakes tell us a lot about the process that goes into producing or operating something. if killing the wynavs at the same time caused a lock for no apparent reason, it's possible that the wynavs are designed to lock it in some way. it's just that killing the wynavs all together caused an unusual behavior. on the other hand, it's possible that the wynavs were involved in his behavior scripting and their lack of presence created a loop. without knowing the scripting structure of mobs in this game more precisely, wild conjecture is about the best i can put out, however. thus only examining the wynavs would be utter foolishness, but paying some heed to them may be worthwhile. were there other ways to lock him?

it may be worth noting that much of the end of CoP's mob scripting was somewhat unusual. first to come to my mind is promaethea. he had an interesting penchant to use his AoE stun move right after being WSed, the upshot of this was that it barred us from making a skillchain. waiting for whatever his name was, flying around to use his lance attack, paralyzing promaethea, allowed us to move in for a skillchain and MB. i can't think of any other mobs in the game that require that much planning to take down. on the other hand, love, and most other jailers are fairly straightforward with little kitch, possibly invalidating this argument.

wrong on wynavs wrong on taking 5% off. Taking 5% hp off him kills his regen rate, wynavs killing together...eh occasionally he'd bug out but you could more often than not have him continuously spawn 40 sets of wynavs without any effect (both pre and post patch) something had to occur to make him stop spawning wynavs, since that's considered a 2hr for him. Seriously, just try killing normal sea mobs around him...prob the best bet at the moment. And when AV would bug out, he wouldnt lose everything, sometimes he'd lose spells, sometimes he'd lose 2 hours, meaning it's not all related to one thing.

Would be kinda funny if it were that simple...

-Spectators watch in anticipation
-Spectators watch as LS gets raped 5-6 sets of wynavs
-Spectators get bored and start killing everything around for amusement.
-AV locks up and LS kills!

Wouldn't it be sad if it was glitching to lock up, just because a bunch of people were farming organs somewhere in sea while AV was being attempted and AV was patched so the same alliance has to do the killing or something silly simple like that.

[Slott]

well, my ls has fought av over 20 times, won once, and we could never recreate it. Even after beating it and before the patch...we could never fully lock him (only lock his spells or his 2hrs, never both) and has tried a lot of diff crap. This is one we havent done yet. it's worth a shot ;x

[Izzy]

Well here's a good question:

If locking AV DOES have to do with killing off the aerns around him...what if some faggot ass LS wanted to MPK you. They could claim the aerns when they pop, and just leave them claimed for hours while AV rapes your virgin asshole.

[Kaylia]

Well here's a good question:

If locking AV DOES have to do with killing off the aerns around him...what if some faggot ass LS wanted to MPK you. They could claim the aerns when they pop, and just leave them claimed for hours while AV rapes your virgin asshole.

Well, I hope the GM would do something if it's the case >_> You arent suposed to hold any mobs, not just nm. Holding + grief tactic...I've seen people get the banstick for less.

[Slott]

Well here's a good question:

If locking AV DOES have to do with killing off the aerns around him...what if some faggot ass LS wanted to MPK you. They could claim the aerns when they pop, and just leave them claimed for hours while AV rapes your virgin asshole.

doubt it's aern based at all. Not only that you cant claim every mob in sea.

[japetus]

Well here's a good question:

If locking AV DOES have to do with killing off the aerns around him...what if some faggot ass LS wanted to MPK you. They could claim the aerns when they pop, and just leave them claimed for hours while AV rapes your virgin asshole.

This is the same argument used against the theory that having other jailers spawned was the key to locking AV, and its a solid point. Other alliances shouldn't be able to have direct control over your fight. I still think its worth trying anyway. I suppose you could argue you can always find other mobs to pull that don't spawn there.

[Spekkio]

me say dumb wrong stuff.

wrong on wynavs wrong on taking 5% off. Taking 5% hp off him kills his regen rate, wynavs killing together...eh occasionally he'd bug out but you could more often than not have him continuously spawn 40 sets of wynavs without any effect (both pre and post patch) something had to occur to make him stop spawning wynavs, since that's considered a 2hr for him. Seriously, just try killing normal sea mobs around him...prob the best bet at the moment. And when AV would bug out, he wouldnt lose everything, sometimes he'd lose spells, sometimes he'd lose 2 hours, meaning it's not all related to one thing.

so the wynavs info i got was wrong. must have been a result misinterpreted as a cause. my appologies. was there no consistent method for locking his spells/2 hrs (regen you've already stated to be knocking off 5% hp) pre-patch or was it just "throw bodies at it till it gets bored for no apparent reason?" if it's the latter, then there's very little we can divine from how he broke before.

[Venture]

Eh, if sea ever gets to that point, there's no hope left for decency in FFXI. Last bastion for calm and civility, at least on this server.

[Khamsin]

Well here's a good question:

If locking AV DOES have to do with killing off the aerns around him...what if some faggot ass LS wanted to MPK you. They could claim the aerns when they pop, and just leave them claimed for hours while AV rapes your virgin asshole.

This is the same argument used against the theory that having other jailers spawned was the key to locking AV, and its a solid point. Other alliances shouldn't be able to have direct control over your fight. I still think its worth trying anyway. I suppose you could argue you can always find other mobs to pull that don't spawn there.

That would mean his wynavs are unrelated, too.

[Max™]

"Kill the monsters around him."

Hmmm.

Which 2hrs do the Outdoor Jailers use again?

I'm sure someone has done this, I recall reading something about it during the wall of justice days.

Since you can't kill mobs of the same type as the indoor Jailers theres a whole in this, but I haven't heard people killing the mobs as the other Jailers, not just the Aerns, and what effect if any it has on AV.

[Spekkio]

Well here's a good question:

If locking AV DOES have to do with killing off the aerns around him...what if some faggot ass LS wanted to MPK you. They could claim the aerns when they pop, and just leave them claimed for hours while AV rapes your virgin asshole.

This is the same argument used against the theory that having other jailers spawned was the key to locking AV, and its a solid point. Other alliances shouldn't be able to have direct control over your fight. I still think its worth trying anyway. I suppose you could argue you can always find other mobs to pull that don't spawn there.

That would mean his wynavs are unrelated, too.

same could be said for a lot of other NMs. claim and kite a qf'ghrah from fortitude and he won't lose reflect/invincible. jack one of the 2 prudences that pop. dump a stack of qn'zdei or an om'yorva on someone fighting a jailer/ix. the number of ways SE's already built into the game to let a few misanthropic players cause problems for everyone else is staggering. i wouldn't be surprised if they did it for AV too. i'm not trying to state that to give validity or detract from it for the above theories, just to show the flaw in the argument that was made for them not being related.

an additional question while i'm thinking about it. i remember that back when limit break first started attacking AV using the so called "wall of justice" in their 24hr+ stint with him (holy @#% those guys are dedicated or crazy...) at some point, AV broke out the bracelets and seemed to, as they described it, change modes. at this point, iirc, it used 2 hrs in groups and began attacking much harder with his spells. for those who have fought it successfully, what exactly is the deal with them? does it just indicate a rage mode, like what tiamat and others do after 30%?

[japetus]

This is the same argument used against the theory that having other jailers spawned was the key to locking AV, and its a solid point. Other alliances shouldn't be able to have direct control over your fight. I still think its worth trying anyway. I suppose you could argue you can always find other mobs to pull that don't spawn there.

That would mean his wynavs are unrelated, too.

same could be said for a lot of other NMs. claim and kite a qf'ghrah from fortitude and he won't lose reflect/invincible. jack one of the 2 prudences that pop. dump a stack of qn'zdei or an om'yorva on someone fighting a jailer/ix. the number of ways SE's already built into the game to let a few misanthropic players cause problems for everyone else is staggering. i wouldn't be surprised if they did it for AV too. i'm not trying to state that to give validity or detract from it for the above theories, just to show the flaw in the argument that was made for them not being related.

Again, just to reiterate, I think killing nearby mobs is well worth testing. I was just making the point that you can't sweep aside the fact that someone could be sleeping aerns for giggles -before- you pop JoL and doom your AV fight. Of course the difference with all those other examples are that they are summons/pets that are spawned when you pop.

We kill JoFortitude with ghrahs up anyway with blm/nin. Prudence shares hate and warps around and you'd need at least a party to hold it, which would be pretty obvious griefing. And of course, full out MPK isn't really worth mentioning as a comparison to sleeping an aern.

I'm not arguing that this idea can't work. Given SE's answer as far as we can trust them, I think its one of the more promising leads in months and I hope someone can try it soon.

[donnie]

the fact that SE said that some aspect have been figured out before but players stopped , meaning something that poeple did or spoke about was true but was either never been tried or has been lied about from an LS and poeple took it for granted.

the fact SE made jailers drops are 100% is to make AV spawns more and to give poeple more interest to fight JoL/AV instead of worthless hours of farming , so that someone might figures it out.

the fact that SE might just playing around might be true , cause they said you can stop regen in 2 ways killing monsters around him , and last year killing JoL pets? wtf , so how do u have 2 ways to stop 1thing.

either way , its not bad to exchange information on new ideas , cause i am sure not all have the chance to fight AV and read alot about him , so they might have an excellent idea out there , think of it as an endless brainstorm session.

[Elipse]

the fact that SE might just playing around might be true , cause they said you can stop regen in 2 ways killing monsters around him , and last year killing JoL pets? wtf , so how do u have 2 ways to stop 1thing.

Cause SE is retarded lol. Killing a certain number of JoL pets does reduce JoL's regen so, I have a feeling that they didn't title it right and that it wasn't intended to be an AV comment. Hard to say, but I remember when that was first released that some people were saying something about confusion of translation? Or perhaps they were trying to hint to you about killing mobs around you? Perhaps AV's works the same as JoL's and thats what they were trying to say? Kill a certain number of Aerns and nuke AV with the same element as the current day to finish off the regen?

Just to add another idea to the killing mobs around AV pile...
Maybe you have to build TP with Tier II jailer weapons on their respective mob types and unload TP on to AV. (Justice Sword on Xzomits, Hope staff on Phaubo's, Club of suck on stupid fishy things). I'll add that one to the list of things to try.

My LS has something like 5 sets of pop items for JoL atm except the prudence fights aren't done yet. (have all the tier 1 pop items for it though). We've had lots of people dealing with RL stuff, like vacations etc lately and since we're not a huge shell we've been relaxing a bit. Hopefully sometime in the near future we can burn through these sets and see if we can find an answer.

[Sagacious Sundi]

I bet they think we're having trouble with JoL, and that's the NM they've been referring to the whole time. After all, Love's summons are "around it."

[donnie]

it would be funny if its more like the Steam Cleaner glitch days , where 93830948349 GM calls made , but they all said nothing is wrong , and ppl started diffrent ways to POP him , after all that , SE fixed it like 4-5 months later w.

but what pisses me off is this:

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Pikko: Chains of Promathia came out nearly 3 years ago and as of today, no linkshell has beaten Absolute Virtue without the invisible wall or the locking technique, both of which were changed. When you originally created Absolute Virtue, did you intend for him to go undefeated for such a long period of time and is he meant to be defeated at all?

Ogawa-san & Tanaka-san: When we first designed it we didn’t design it to never be able to be defeated and we’re convinced that it can be defeated. Last year at the Tokyo Game Show hints were given and whether those were taken as hints or not, well… Some players were able to figure out some things from it but there were other hints that not a lot of people have picked up on and so its become sort of this urban myth that Absolute Virtue cannot be defeated, but it can be defeated.
------------

bold phrase ... GOD did they read what they have said? cause its like a conflict of information -.-

[Elipse]

I bet they think we're having trouble with JoL, and that's the NM they've been referring to the whole time. After all, Love's summons are "around it."

You know, I wouldn't put it past them.

[Yutuyu]

SE isn't retarded. Your average endgame player knows that AV was defeatable then SE Ninja-fixed him and now no one's been able to figure it out. They also know about the hints that SE gave during the fanfestival, so I really doubt that SE is dumber than the average player is.

"Just to add another idea to the killing mobs around AV pile...
Maybe you have to build TP with Tier II jailer weapons on their respective mob types and unload TP on to AV. (Justice Sword on Xzomits, Hope staff on Phaubo's, Club of suck on stupid fishy things). I'll add that one to the list of things to try."

Might also be worth trying locking on Aerns with their respective Jailer Weapons too. I.E. killing THF/PLD/RDM Aerns with Justice Sword, NIN/MNK Aerns with Faith Baghnags.

You hear people talking about using justice weapons all the time, but I also wonder if anyone's tried much with all 7 in conjunction attacking a mob. I mean, "Absolute Virtue" itself means essentially a creature which is the Epitome of Virtue, containing the characteristics of all 7 virtues. Maybe the key is using all 7 weapons while defeating a particular Wynav, or attacking AV, not just a couple.

Again I apologise if this has been said before, just a thought.

[Tomiko]

SE isn't retarded. Your average endgame player knows that AV was defeatable then SE Ninja-fixed him and now no one's been able to figure it out. They also know about the hints that SE gave during the fanfestival, so I really doubt that SE is dumber than the average player is.

Let the examples begin!

http://bluegartr.com/forum/download.php?id=110

No screenshot, but did you know that according to a GM (representative of SE) Tiamat can be zoned?