To harass PS2 users or not?

[Kazen]

Another thing comes to mind when I think about people who have not upgraded an claim they cannot afford it.

Anyone who is playing on a PS2 has been playing this game for several years now.

If they had spent just 5% of their playtime working at a minimum wage job, they could probably afford to buy a dozen Xbox 360s.

Sad but true.

Just cause you have the money dosen't mean you should spend it.

ding ding ding. I'm sure everyone could buy a cheap pc but.... I bet alot would spend there money they have saved for when shit goes wrong.

[Royal]

Just cause you have the money dosen't mean you should spend it.

QFT

[layoneil]

To answer, it was just a comment, since you make it sound people would not go to silly lenghts in order to enjoy the game.

some people will sure, but not all people will.

what people can afford to do isn't always what people will want to do. if they drop the PS2 completely, some people will simply decide that it's time to move on.

no one can say for certain how many people will drop the game or how many people will upgrade to a new platform, but unless you can convince SE that the former is going to be much less than the latter, they're not going to drop PS2 support.

how many people who get banned/hacked go and buy another account for $300+ so they can keep playing? how many of them do you know decide that it's a sign to stop and do something else?

just because some people are hugely addicted doesn't mean everyone playing is the same way.

[Ashido]

I have both PS2 and PC versions. I don't even touch the PC version. It isn't even installed right now. Sitting on the couch>sitting at desk. If they were to drop PS2 support I would quit simple as that. Were I ever to get an XBox I would probably come back, but I certainly wouldnt deal with playing the game on the PC. It just isnt fun to me. Now PC users might say "Well that doesnt make any sense if you enjoy the game." Well, how many people on this forum bitch and moan about threatening to quit every time Windower breaks? Same concept, different angle. Were I forced to PC I wouldn't even bother. Let's face it. There are better games on the PC, so if that were my only option, I'd just play a better game. But I'd rather not if I don;t have to.

And as to the people who think a switch would be cake if they sweetend the deal, to those who need more space because they can only swap 15 of their 16 slots, or for people who want to see lolcapes which would look ridiculous by the way, or for people who want sparkling puddles and more realistic darters in their Aery, well.... this game wasn't made for you. It stings, I know. This game was made for Alla. They're the money. They're the majority. They're the target demographic. FFXI just isn't a hardcore game, nor is it meant to be. Maybe they don't add more slots because they -don't- want you ripping off all your clothes for a WS. Maybe they want you to make intelligent gear choices and sacrifices. Maybe they don't want to stress the hell out over epeen, and just play the goddam game because you enjoy it. This game is far too old to worry about it being the best. There is no second wind. Everquest only got massive upgrades because at the time it was the king of the jungle. ~500k people here just isn't worth it, and that's cool by me.

But in the end this discussion is just "I want stuff." Aurik does just want shinies, and I want a comfortable stress-free playing situation. No harm in people being greedy, but let's not kid ourselves.

Anyway, carry on.

[Septimus]

PS2 is choking the life out of this game. It would not be terribly difficult to recode the game to take advantage of the video card to make it run faster and smoother on PCs. (Hell, they could probably hire Cliff to do it.) If you are so addicted to sitting on your couch to play the game, you could get an X-Box 360 version, which would probably also run smoother from the game recoding.

With that said, I doubt that Square would drop PS2 support due to sheer stubbornness. This is a company that did not even feel the need to listen to its playerbase until last year. But I think they don't see how their poor attitude in this game is going to affect future projects. I think a lot of people will eschew future Square MMO projects because of their reluctance to listen to player concerns, and the specter of lolPS2 limitations.

[Faxanadu]

PS2 is choking the life out of this game. It would not be terribly difficult to recode the game to take advantage of the video card to make it run faster and smoother on PCs. (Hell, they could probably hire Cliff to do it.) If you are so addicted to sitting on your couch to play the game, you could get an X-Box 360 version, which would probably also run smoother from the game recoding.

With that said, I doubt that Square would drop PS2 support due to sheer stubbornness. This is a company that did not even feel the need to listen to its playerbase until last year. But I think they don't see how their poor attitude in this game is going to affect future projects. I think a lot of people will eschew future Square MMO projects because of their reluctance to listen to player concerns, and the specter of lolPS2 limitations.

PS2 is not choking the life out of the game. Nothing is choking the life out of the game. the only thing that has changed since the PS2 release and present day is the greed and whiny compliants of a select few players that will never be satisfied.

recoding a game wouldn't be too teribly difficult? lol. your recoding a game! hell, i wouldn't ask that of any developer.

sitting on my couch after spending 8 hours a day at a computer at work is a god send.
also a 360 would cost about as much as the "cheap computer" idea. read: too much.

your last paragraph is agreeable except for the part about squares future plans for a new MMORPG. I think that as long as it has "Final Fantasy" in the title, it will sell well.

[aurik]

PS2 is not choking the life out of the game. Nothing is choking the life out of the game. the only thing that has changed since the PS2 release and present day is the greed and whiny compliants of a select few players that will never be satisfied.

recoding a game wouldn't be too teribly difficult? lol. your recoding a game! hell, i wouldn't ask that of any developer.

sitting on my couch after spending 8 hours a day at a computer at work is a god send.
also a 360 would cost about as much as the "cheap computer" idea. read: too much.

your last paragraph is agreeable except for the part about squares future plans for a new MMORPG. I think that as long as it has "Final Fantasy" in the title, it will sell well.

Are you kidding me? PS2 is definitely choking the life out of the game. Every time they can't satisfy their playerbase due to PS2 limitations, the game dies a little bit more. The fact that we have to wait 4 months for a 2 weeks worth of development because they needed to optimize it so that it would even run on the PS2, the game dies a little bit more. It's like they're driving around with a giant drag chute on with the words "PS2" written on it; sure, SE can get places eventually but they burn a lot of gas and don't get there very fast.

Integrating a new, cheap middleware engine would be an order of magnitude easier than what they already do on a monthly basis to get the game to run on the PS2. Do it once and the game becomes both easier to manage and performs better on PCs and XBox360, so that people like you can play it from a recliner.

You can bluster all you want about quitting, but the fact is most likely you probably would figure out a way to play if you couldn't play on PS2. If not, well, bye, because you're not worth the effort.

[fantasticdan]

You can bluster all you want about quitting, but the fact is most likely you probably would figure out a way to play if you couldn't play on PS2. If not, well, bye, because you're not worth the effort.

Are you going to quit if they don't drop PS2 support and increase inventory space, in-game macro lines, texture definition, etc? Or are you going to figure out a way to keep playing?

[Shyla]

I really dont get how anyone could like PS2 version more than PC. I played FFXI on PS2 at a friends house, on screen keyboard is horrid. Then if you have a keyboard for PS2, how is that any different from PC? Graphics and lag is horrible compared to PC. Everything about is just horrible. I like to tab out and read forums/watch movies/TV shows whatever while camping HNM or what have you. What do you do on PS2? Sit there and look at the screen for 3 hours?

I personally will cheer and rejoice at the day FFXI dies on the PS2 paving the way for better game play and more optimization.

[Amele]

You can bluster all you want about quitting, but the fact is most likely you probably would figure out a way to play if you couldn't play on PS2. If not, well, bye, because you're not worth the effort.

Are you going to quit if they don't drop PS2 support and increase inventory space, in-game macro lines, texture definition, etc? Or are you going to figure out a way to keep playing?

I'm pretty sure aurik could give a shit about texture definition, although I wouldn't want to presume to put the words in his mouth, simply because almost all of his arguments have been toward performance issues and not graphics issues.

and recoding maybe three classes (all of them interface classes!) isn't that hard. hell SE is doing it already by recoding the PC/X360 codebase to use DX9 for windower support.

[solsovly]

You can bluster all you want about quitting, but the fact is most likely you probably would figure out a way to play if you couldn't play on PS2. If not, well, bye, because you're not worth the effort.

Are you going to quit if they don't drop PS2 support and increase inventory space, in-game macro lines, texture definition, etc? Or are you going to figure out a way to keep playing?

Well increased macro lines, dat modding have already been made by the PC userbase through windowers/dats. But yes, I imagine people do quit because of the limitations in the game, for other MMOs with better graphics/support. The game is fun, but being limited by a PS2 is annoying and only adds to reasons to quit. The way SE has handled FFXI, makes me not want to try any other MMO they come out with in the future.

Do I like the game now? Yes. Could it be improved(thereby keeping my subscription longer)? Resounding yes.

I can do DVI --> HDMI and play it on a 42" tv as well, don't need a console to do that. However it pisses me off so much that I have a new very fast pc that runs modern games very well and FFXI runs like piss. If my LS/friends quit, I have no doubt I'd follow suit. My friends are fun to play with, the engine is not.

[Croaker]

Another thing comes to mind when I think about people who have not upgraded an claim they cannot afford it.

Anyone who is playing on a PS2 has been playing this game for several years now.

If they had spent just 5% of their playtime working at a minimum wage job, they could probably afford to buy a dozen Xbox 360s.

Sad but true.

lol you sound like a young kid just now. i have been putting money into savings while FFxi was still in development and have quite a nice cushion atm, but you can bet your sweet ass that as soon as i drop $500 bucks a new computer, my central air unit will break down, my truck will drop its tranny and my freg will burn itself out.

Just cause you have the money dosen't mean you should spend it.

I'm not seeing where the young kid comment is comming from.

I am not referring you spending your savings. I am talking about extra money someone could have had. It is called a hypothetical situation.

"IF they had spent just 5% of their playtime working at a minimum wage job, they could probably afford to buy a dozen Xbox 360s."

Lets say you are the average FFXI addict, the type who browses FFXI forums while you are not playing FFXI. You probably have 300+ days of logged playtime. IF you had spent 5% of that time working at any minimum wage job instead of playing, you would have an extra $3000. You could buy your computer and also put an extra $2500 into your emergency savings.

My comment is also not directed at you. You can afford a PC, but choose not to. I am referring to those who say the can't afford a PC, but can afford to spend thousands of hours playing games. (Time = money)

It is just something to think about. I.E. hypothetical.

Anyway, I predict your PS2 is going to break before your "freg".

[Faxanadu]

first off i wasn't blustering about quiting. I don't even know you and you don't know me so it goes without saying that you could care less about whether im quiting or not.

What i am doing is in fact defending all PS2 users across the board. These are ppl that have put years of effort into a hobby, perfecting thier skills, getting the good gears etc... and in one fell swoop you want to cut us off from new content? 25% of the base palyers just left out to dry eh? screw that. ain't gonna happen. Shit, the profit alone from all those accounts being terminated might make SE decide that the game isan't profitable anymore.

we're here to stay, get used to it. Even if they did cancel PS2 content, i don't know any self respecting person that would take that slap in the face then turn around and spend a crap load of money just to keep playing. They should have made it a real game on the PS3 instead of just an emulation. That would have made this eaiser to deal with as most PS2 owners will eventually be upgarding to a PS3 anyway. and sorry, im not gonna buy an Xbox. if i wanna play Halo i will drive over to my buddies house.

[Vedder]

The fact that we have to wait 4 months for a 2 weeks worth of development because they needed to optimize it so that it would even run on the PS2, the game dies a little bit more.

If possible, would you be able to cite some examples of the optimization that is required to get new game dev running on the PS2?

As I understand it, the game was originally designed for the PS2 then ported over to the PC and subsequently the 360. I obviously have no clue which platform is used initially for new FFXI development, but it's logical to think that it's done on one or the other first then ported over... I think that's what you are saying.

The last time I did any game coding was on a Commodore64, so I don't know jack about PS2 or PC game development... but I was hoping you could lend some insight into the stuggles SE must face to optimize on the PS2. Or at least quote anything SE may have said on the topic, since I can't recall anything offhand... but it might be out there.

[Faxanadu]

I really dont get how anyone could like PS2 version more than PC. I played FFXI on PS2 at a friends house, on screen keyboard is horrid. Then if you have a keyboard for PS2, how is that any different from PC? Graphics and lag is horrible compared to PC. Everything about is just horrible. I like to tab out and read forums/watch movies/TV shows whatever while camping HNM or what have you. What do you do on PS2? Sit there and look at the screen for 3 hours?

I personally will cheer and rejoice at the day FFXI dies on the PS2 paving the way for better game play and more optimization.

My TV has split screen and PiP on it, so i can keep an eye on the chat log and watch Mythbusters if i want. Before that i had a smaller TV, played my gameboy and ::gasp:: read books.

[Vedder]

What i am doing is in fact defending all PS2 users across the board. These are ppl that have put years of effort into a hobby, perfecting thier skills, getting the good gears etc... and in one fell swoop you want to cut us off from new content? 25% of the base palyers just left out to dry eh? screw that. ain't gonna happen. Shit, the profit alone from all those accounts being terminated might make SE decide that the game isan't profitable anymore.

we're here to stay, get used to it. Even if they did cancel PS2 content, i don't know any self respecting person that would take that slap in the face then turn around and spend a crap load of money just to keep playing. They should have made it a real game on the PS3 instead of just an emulation. That would have made this eaiser to deal with as most PS2 owners will eventually be upgarding to a PS3 anyway. and sorry, im not gonna buy an Xbox. if i wanna play Halo i will drive over to my buddies house.

I play on PS2 and I don't need to be defended, thank you. For me it's more of a matter of game loyalty rather than one of platform loyalty.

If SE were to drop PS2 support so they could just stop "going through the hassle" of developing content on that platform, then I might be put off a bit... but if they were to do it in order to make the game more robust and take it places that it's currently unable to go due to PS2 limitations, then I'd have no problem with the PS2 being a victim of progress. Onward and upward!

People that adamantly stand behind one platform or the other... get over yourselves. Take a look at what might improve FFXI from a holistic perspective and form your opinions that way.

[Lordender]

You can bluster all you want about quitting, but the fact is most likely you probably would figure out a way to play if you couldn't play on PS2. If not, well, bye, because you're not worth the effort.

Are you going to quit if they don't drop PS2 support and increase inventory space, in-game macro lines, texture definition, etc? Or are you going to figure out a way to keep playing?

Well increased macro lines, dat modding have already been made by the PC userbase through windowers/dats. But yes, I imagine people do quit because of the limitations in the game, for other MMOs with better graphics/support. The game is fun, but being limited by a PS2 is annoying and only adds to reasons to quit. The way SE has handled FFXI, makes me not want to try any other MMO they come out with in the future.

Do I like the game now? Yes. Could it be improved(thereby keeping my subscription longer)? Resounding yes.

I can do DVI --> HDMI and play it on a 42" tv as well, don't need a console to do that. However it pisses me off so much that I have a new very fast pc that runs modern games very well and FFXI runs like piss. If my LS/friends quit, I have no doubt I'd follow suit. My friends are fun to play with, the engine is not.

totally agree, years down the line it will be the same shit, different day when they say ps3 limitations on their next mmo when it gets about as old as FFXI. I have been a fan of square since the first FF but don't think i'll be playing anymore of their MMO's after i'm done with XI.

[Faxanadu]

Anyway, I predict your PS2 is going to break before your "freg".

freg = refrigerator (maybe should have been "frig" i guess is what your looking for here. lol)

[sleekmotorwurkz]

This may have been said, but I dont feel like reading 7 pages to put my 2 cents in. I have both ps2 and pc versions but I play mainly on pc. Now correct me if im wrong but there are certain things that are different between the two. Example on pc you can turn weather effects on and off, ps2 you cant. So obviously they dont mind making the games slightly different and im sure a few of the enhancements they are talking about that are "limited by ps2" could be toned down for ps2 and it wouldnt cause a great catastrophe. Some of the things would cause great differences in gameplay between the platforms so I can understand that they cannot be done because of the ps2, im just getting sick of hearing the same excuse for EVERY game enhancement that is suggested.

[aurik]

The fact that we have to wait 4 months for a 2 weeks worth of development because they needed to optimize it so that it would even run on the PS2, the game dies a little bit more.

If possible, would you be able to cite some examples of the optimization that is required to get new game dev running on the PS2?

As I understand it, the game was originally designed for the PS2 then ported over to the PC and subsequently the 360. I obviously have no clue which platform is used initially for new FFXI development, but it's logical to think that it's done on one or the other first then ported over... I think that's what you are saying.

The last time I did any game coding was on a Commodore64, so I don't know jack about PS2 or PC game development... but I was hoping you could lend some insight into the stuggles SE must face to optimize on the PS2. Or at least quote anything SE may have said on the topic, since I can't recall anything offhand... but it might be out there.

They've got to fit everything in the PS2's 32MB of RAM. Do remember that a lot of that ram is going to be taken up by textures, sounds, music etc. The game also needs to attempt to run at ~30FPS even on the very, very outdated graphics hardware in the PS2, without the crutch of precalculating and storing large amounts of data because of the RAM limitation.

They essentially already have to write the low-level code twice: once for the DirectX SKU, which runs on both PC and XB and is very easy to write, and once for the PS2 SKU, using the PS2 vector units, which is PS2-specific and is better described as arcane magic than computer science. Once the 2 have been written, they typically will be accessed through a standard interface to abstract the hardware implementation from the engine, which clamps the functionality of the PC and XB implementations to the maximum that the PS2 can support.

When I worked on PS2 games we had highly-paid experts on the payroll whose sole function it was to take the features we had gotten working in a fairly standard manner on the XB and write VU code so that retail PS2s could run the game.