To harass PS2 users or not?

[FinalJustice]

And I don't understand how controller users can stand scrolling around in macro menus--I like being able to push alt-9 alt-1 without having to accurately tab over 8 slots. The best FPS players have keys bound to each weapon so they can instantly switch to any; only novices use the scroll function to go up-or-down weapons until the one they want.

That's the thing, FPS take advantage of that speed. Which is why a KB and mouse for FPS and RTS games is superior. FFXI doesn't take advantage of that speed. Where in FPS' those changes are near instant, I could have a machine gun out, flip a button swithcing to a shotgun, blast someone, then switch back to my machine and continue firing ALL while in midair. Not to mention the mouse is way more precise for aiming. In FFXI I can't start casting Cure 4, then instantly switch and start casting erase. I have to wait. Now.. IF you could do that, then the kb would be superior for performance sake. Put your macro in the right spot there isn't much scrolling to be done.

[aurik]

And I don't understand how controller users can stand scrolling around in macro menus--I like being able to push alt-9 alt-1 without having to accurately tab over 8 slots. The best FPS players have keys bound to each weapon so they can instantly switch to any; only novices use the scroll function to go up-or-down weapons until the one they want.

That's the thing, FPS take advantage of that speed. Which is why a KB and mouse for FPS and RTS games is superior. FFXI doesn't take advantage of that speed. Where in FPS' those changes are near instant, I could have a machine gun out, flip a button swithcing to a shotgun, blast someone, then switch back to my machine and continue firing ALL while in midair. Not to mention the mouse is way more precise for aiming. In FFXI I can't start casting Cure 4, then instantly switch and start casting erase. I have to wait. Now.. IF you could do that, then the kb would be superior for performance sake. Put your macro in the right spot there isn't much scrolling to be done.

You must be a horrible stunner.

[Faxanadu]

And I don't understand how controller users can stand scrolling around in macro menus--I like being able to push alt-9 alt-1 without having to accurately tab over 8 slots. The best FPS players have keys bound to each weapon so they can instantly switch to any; only novices use the scroll function to go up-or-down weapons until the one they want.

Well for starters your not always tabing across 8 slots. Most of the time your only scrolling 1, 2 or 3 spots either to the left or right. PS2 users learn to put relating macros next to each other (i.e. voke next to flash, :Ichi next to :Ni). After playing for over 3 years, you memorize where everything is, you get VERY quick at it, and in my case can do it without even watching what your are selecting.

ninja edit: grammer

[aurik]

And I don't understand how controller users can stand scrolling around in macro menus--I like being able to push alt-9 alt-1 without having to accurately tab over 8 slots. The best FPS players have keys bound to each weapon so they can instantly switch to any; only novices use the scroll function to go up-or-down weapons until the one they want.

Well for starters your not always tabing across 8 slots. Most of the time your only scrolling 1, 2 or 3 spots either to the left or right. PS2 users learn to put relating macros next to each other (i.e. voke next to flash, :Ichi next to :Ni). After playing for over 3 years, you memorize where everything is, you get VERY quick at it, and in my case can do it will not even watching what your are selecting.

Still way harder to do than press a button which corresponds exactly to which macro you want, without regard to your current cursor position.

[FinalJustice]

You must be a horrible stunner.

Nope, when I'm on a job that stuns, my stun sits at Alt 1 or Ctrl 1, OR Cntrl 0 or Alt 0. There is no scrolling when im on stun duty 8)
Right trigger +A or Left trigger +A when im up for a stun is all I need. Unless I'm Rdm/Drk chainspell stunning something. Then I manually stun which is faster for spamming.

Still way harder to do than press a button which corresponds exactly to which macro you want, without regard to your current cursor position.

That's up to each individual. Some would say memorizing every slot with it's corresponding number for every job is harder. Some would say taking their eyes off the screen to look down at their keyboard to look for cntl/alt then a number is harder. Some would say having the skill to use any button on a keyboard without looking at the keys (which many good typist can do) is harder. It's all relative really.

[Faxanadu]

Still way harder to do than press a button which corresponds exactly to which macro you want, without regard to your current cursor position.

I can still do that with the keyboard if i want, but its not "way harder" using a controler.

plus, on jobs i don't play too often, its nice to be able to see what and where all my macros are with just a press of R2 or L2, then simply selecting the one i want. I'm not too embarresed to say that i don't have all my jobs macro positions memorized.

[aurik]

You must be a horrible stunner.

Nope, when I'm on a job that stuns, my stun sits at Alt 1 or Ctrl 1, OR Cntrl 0 or Alt 0. There is no scrolling when im on stun duty 8)
Right trigger +A or Left trigger +A when im up for a stun is all I need. Unless I'm Rdm/Drk chainspell stunning something. Then I manually stun which is faster for spamming.

So basically if you need to stun you are locked onto one macro and can't do anything else effectively (emergency cure, equip change, etc)

[quote:5ec1c]Still way harder to do than press a button which corresponds exactly to which macro you want, without regard to your current cursor position.

That's up to each individual. Some would say memorizing every slot with it's corresponding number for every job is harder. Some would say taking their eyes off the screen to look down at their keyboard to look for cntl/alt then a number is harder. Some would say having the skill to use any button on a keyboard without looking at the keys (which many good typist can do) is harder. It's all relative really.[/quote:5ec1c]

You still need to learn macro offsets if you use a controller, so memorizing where things are is a moot point. Having to remember 5 different offsets to get to your stun macro is a lot more taxing than remembering "stun is always alt-1", on top of needing to press way more than 2 buttons to get it to fire.

[Amele]

Second, it's pointless to talk about 480p/480i on PCs, because a video card and multiscan monitor can be configured to display a great variety of resolutions/refresh rates.

Again, it's being upscaled. You can connect your console to monitors as well. Compare "the matrix" standard edition playing in your PC, vs The matrix HD edition for a comparison. Or any standard and HD movie in your PC. Not to mention the PC and PS2 versions share the same color palette, and the 360 one has a different one. It's kinda pointless when the dev team tells you one version is output at higher resolutions then the other. If They released the patch for PC to upgrade it, it would look much better.

movies != games.

FFXI on the pc, is first drawn to a dx-surface in memory, the size of which you specify. (via a registry key). this is then scaled to match the overlay resolution (that you ALSO specify) and drawn to the frame buffer, where it then queued to display on your screen.

this screen of course, is a multiscan display that is -never- interlaced. depending on those settings the graphics may, in fact, be downscaled.

HD terminology means absolutely nothing to a PC, gtfo.

[Bakthi]

I find it hard to believe that you've studied HCI and yet think that there's some superiority in having 3 (or 4) input devices when 1 does the job just as well. Theres a reason that both emacs and vi have purely keyboard driven interfaces, and it's not because they were designed before the proliferation of the mouse (ok maybe that has a small part in it...)

Oh, I'm well aware. I use vi wherever I can, even in email composition, although I'm not quite to the point where I use a window manager like ratpoison. Not to mention a good keyboard, properly used, putting far less strain on one's wrist than almost any mouse.

However, I do think that the controller is a superior movement device, enough so that it compensates for the overhead in moving a hand between it and the keyboard. And I feel that, for my purposes, Linux is better enough as an environment to justify having to change between four devices rather than 2 while playing FFXI (I can't dual boot because of MythTV, although I've pondered changing my setup around...but that's wandering waaaay off-topic). Just as for my purposes, Mozilla is worth having to put up with a mouse rather than just using w3m.

The main argument, I think, is not necessarily that my setup is more efficient than a Windows setup, but that for FFXI, it's indistinguishably efficient. Dedicated (OCD?) people on either platform will always perform better than lazy people on either platform, and each platform has a depressingly large quantity of the latter. And even some of the dedicated players can take liberties, such as playing from an easy chair rather than a desk, with no discernable drop in performance. The nature of the game, and the imperfect humans behind the controls, are enough to smooth over the smaller differences.

And I don't understand how controller users can stand scrolling around in macro menus--I like being able to push alt-9 alt-1 without having to accurately tab over 8 slots. The best FPS players have keys bound to each weapon so they can instantly switch to any; only novices use the scroll function to go up-or-down weapons until the one they want.

That's why I don't (for the most part) use my controller to trigger macros. You're right; in most cases, it's far less efficient. I also haven't bothered organizing my spell menu, because for the most part, it's faster for me to type out -na spells, etc. for which I don't have macros.

Edit: Someone also brought up less frequently used jobs. I'll admit that while my WHM has a full set of macros, I don't really know where they are; if I have to play WHM for something, there will be a learning period as far as macro triggering goes. However, you could accomplish the same thing by just holding down Alt or Ctrl, looking, and hitting the right number, so that's not really a good argument in favor of triggering macros via controller.

The only time I really like to trigger macros via controller is if I have a non-instantaneous sequence, particularly if it might be interrupted. From about 40-55 on NIN, when I was spamming the wheel, I'd trigger those macros with the controller so that it would hold my place for me, so to speak, in case I got distracted by something else and had a brain fizzle. I used the keyboard for all the other macros, which meant my place wasn't lost.

On the other hand (no pun intended), my 2 WS gear macros (damn that main advantage of Windows again) and Rampage are to be executed right after one another, and so I trigger those with the keyboard.

[FinalJustice]

So basically if you need to stun you are locked onto one macro and can't do anything else effectively (emergency cure, equip change, etc)

Umm no...
You seem to think i put everything on the same macro line, that's what 2 macro lines are for. And if anything stun is next to heal... And I gaurantee i can hit that just as quick as you hit Ctrl+number. I wonder if you could pull of 50 hit combos in Marvel vs capcom since you seem to think it takes soooo much time to do this. I don't know what slow hand speed you have.

You still need to learn macro offsets if you use a controller, so memorizing where things are is a moot point. Having to remember 5 different offsets to get to your stun macro is a lot more taxing than remembering "stun is always alt-1", on top of needing to press way more than 2 buttons to get it to fire.

That is not the same as memorizing button placements, i don't have to look at the controller, no matter what job im on. And on a controller stun is always Alt 1 as well and its ALWAYS 2 OR 3 button presses away. I don't know about your speed with your hands. And i could care less if I have to press a 3rd button. The only moot argument here is yours.

[aurik]

So basically if you need to stun you are locked onto one macro and can't do anything else effectively (emergency cure, equip change, etc)

Umm no...
You seem to think i put everything on the same macro line, that's what 2 macro lines are for. And if anything stun is next to heal... And I gaurantee i can hit that just as quick as you hit Ctrl+number. I wonder if you could pull of 50 hit combos in Marvel vs capcom since you seem to think it takes soooo much time to do this. I don't know what slow hand speed you have.

Since you want to know, I'm most likely better than you at 1v1 fighters, lol.

On controller, you're still restricting yourself to what is "easily" adjacent to your stun macro, whereas keyboard users can use any macro with the same amount of ease.

[quote:8f08a]You still need to learn macro offsets if you use a controller, so memorizing where things are is a moot point. Having to remember 5 different offsets to get to your stun macro is a lot more taxing than remembering "stun is always alt-1", on top of needing to press way more than 2 buttons to get it to fire.

That is not the same as memorizing button placements, i don't have to look at the controller, no matter what job im on. And on a controller stun is always Alt 1 as well and its ALWAYS 2 OR 3 button presses away. I don't know about your speed with your hands. And i could care less if I have to press a 3rd button. The only moot argument here is yours.[/quote:8f08a]

You go on and on about how you just know to press UUDDLRLRBA to hit you megazord chainspell-benediction macro, but then harp on how on PC people have to remember where their macros are placed? Come on.

"I'm so fast it doesn't need to be simple" is not a valid counterargument to "it's more simple with X than Y"; it's a justification why you personally are ok using an inferior interface device for macros.

[Amele]

maybe I don't know all the buttons you have at your disposal, in which case, feel free to correct me, but on a controller:

the first macro on the line is up to 6 button presses away from the 6th macro on the line, right? (5 to cursor to it, 1 to fire) assuming the macro bar is already up.

no matter how you slice it, 6 button presses is significantly more than 2. (especially since many people who use PCs professionally can type in excess of 500 keystrokes per minute.)

not that it *really* matters, since either platform can use any input device (ok, some USB keyboards that you might use for the ps2 don't exceed 250keystrokes per minute, but this is beside the point.)

[shihei]

well you can put stuff adjacent to make it more easier ok but
it is fast regardless, you can pre target your next macro before somthing like stun or flash is even done casting and have it ready. really not that hard and i dont think one is faster then the other

[Amele]

well you can put stuff adjacent to make it more easier ok but
it is fast regardless, you can pre target your next macro before somthing like stun or flash is even done casting and have it ready. really not that hard and i dont think one is faster then the other

keyboard can pre-target too - except pre-targeting on the pc is one button press (control or alt) and pre-targets 10 macros at once.

or, since the keyboard is a much much lower seek cost for any given macro (being a maximum of five keystrokes from all 200 macros) they can do something else entirely while waiting for that macro to finish firing.

[FinalJustice]

Since you want to know, I'm most likely better than you at 1v1 fighters, lol.

You must be paying Ms. Cleo a hefty price

On controller, you're still restricting yourself to what is "easily" adjacent to your stun macro, whereas keyboard users can use any macro with the same amount of ease.

Both are easy to do. It's not a restriction. For a controller user its, all about macro placement, and setting yourself up. My healing macro ha snothing to do with my Stun macro. I can easily make Heal Ctrl 1, and stun Alt 1. And in a stun order, there is NO need for me to NEVER move the stun cursor to something else. Because A, Stun has a recast time, and B, It can be someone else's turn. Even when i use a KB, and its MY TURN to stun gates of hades, I try to limit what I'm casting because Gates can come any sec, and no matter how fast I can emergency cure, we might die because Gates of hades comes when im casting cure 3. So i leave the curing up to the whms, rdm, and other blms not stunning. I even sometimes stun him with Temporal shift on Blu. I don't care how "easy" you feel one is over the other. If someone else takes one extra step to accomplish what you did one 2 steps all that matters is the time. If you're in the middle of Cure, NO KB will allow you to stop cure to stun.

You go on and on about how you just know to press UUDDLRLRBA to hit you megazord chainspell-benediction macro, but then harp on how on PC people have to remember where their macros are placed? Come on.

There IS no memorizing of the BUTTONS, if i had to take my eyes off and look at my controller before I enter a command you would have a point. It's even less memory involved since you're using your eyes more then anything. Open macro window quickly see macro you need is 2 spaces over without looking at any numbers, tap tap A win.

"I'm so fast it doesn't need to be simple" is not a valid counterargument to "it's more simple with X than Y"; it's a justification why you personally are ok using an inferior interface device for macros.

It matters not if you feel one is an inferior interface, that's not the point. The point is, i can play the game and execute moves at the same speed as you given the sheer slow speed in between actions in FFXI. The only advantage YOU have, is if you want to change outfits 7 times.

BOTH ways are quick as hell, and given the slow speed of FFXI your argument is baseless. Go ahead and give more flawed analogies to FPS and RTS games..two genres that require a whole different pace and execution.

[aurik]

On controller, you're still restricting yourself to what is "easily" adjacent to your stun macro, whereas keyboard users can use any macro with the same amount of ease.

Both are easy to do. It's not a restriction. For a controller user its, all about macro placement, and setting yourself up. My healing macro ha snothing to do with my Stun macro. I can easily make Heal Ctrl 1, and stun Alt 1. And in a stun order, there is NO need for me to NEVER move the stun cursor to something else. Because A. Stun has a recast time, and B. It can be someone elses turn. Even when i use a KB, and its MY TURN to stun gates of hades, I try to limit what I'm casting because Gates can come any sec, and no matter how fast I can emergency cure, we might die because Gates of hades comes when im casting cure 3. So i leave the curing up to the whms, rdm, and other blms not stunning. I even sometimes stun him with Temporal shift on Blu. I don't care how "easy" you feel one is over the other. If someone esle takes one extra step to accomplish what you did one 2 steps all that matters is the time. If you're in the middle of Cure, NO KB will allow you to stop cure to stun.

Or you can forego all this artificial annoyance ('macro placement', 'setting yourself up') and be able to branch in 10 ways with 1 keypress using a keyboard versus 2 ways using 2 keypresses on a controller.

[quote:145b8]You go on and on about how you just know to press UUDDLRLRBA to hit you megazord chainspell-benediction macro, but then harp on how on PC people have to remember where their macros are placed? Come on.

There IS no memorizing of the BUTTONS, if i had to take my eyes off and look at my controller before I enter a command you would have a point. It's even less memory involved since you're using your eyes more then anything. Open macro window quickly see macro you need is 2 spaces over without looking at any numbers, tap tap A win. [/quote:145b8]

Or you can remember where your macros are placed and not have to parse your macro cursor location dynamically?

[quote:145b8]"I'm so fast it doesn't need to be simple" is not a valid counterargument to "it's more simple with X than Y"; it's a justification why you personally are ok using an inferior interface device for macros.

It matters not if you feel one is an inferior interface, that's not the point. The point is, i can play the game and execute moves at the same speed as you given the sheer slow speed in between actions in FFXI. The only advantage YOU have, is if you want to change outfits 7 times.

BOTH ways are quick as hell, and given the slow speed of FFXI your argument is baseless go ahead and give more flawed analogies to FPS and RTS games..[/quote:145b8]

You still haven't shown why a branching factor of 2 (controller) is better than a branching factor of 10 (keyboard) but go on thinking that "I don't need that kind of flexibility" proves your point.

[FinalJustice]

And youve Still yet to show how youre 10 branch can interupt another macro other then a gear change to activate the next macro, until you do, you point is moot.

[aurik]

And youve Still yet to show how youre 10 branch can interupt another macro other then a gear change to activate the next macro, until you do, you point is moot.

False dilemma.

You're thinking too much in the controller-macro mindframe.

You seem to think that nothing ever happens when your character isn't too busy to respond immediately, so it doesn't matter, but I can tell you that the majority of my time is spent not waiting for actions to complete but waiting for things to happen that I can respond to.

On the PC, if I want to go from macro A to macro B quickly, I don't have to do anything. So, if something happens that interrupts my plan and I need to suddenly hit macro C, I just press the button for C. Nobody said I'm mid-spell or anything at this point, and macro C goes off instantly, and then I can just as freely go back to macro B, or change and use a different macro instead.

On the controller, if you're in mid-transition from macro A to macro B, that means you're busy scrolling between the two locations. If something happens, you have to dynamically replan your route to go to macro C, which is going to be another bunch of keypresses, and then repair your route to B or dynamically replan a route to another macro instead. Hi2u 10+ keypresses to do the same that could be done on a PC in 3.

[fantasticdan]

I haven't played on 360 for a while, but I'm pretty sure you can just hold left or right to scroll through your macros pretty quickly, you don't need to tap the d-pad a million times. It's not like you can't use keyboard to activate macros while playing on console thou, so it's a pretty moot argument.

[aurik]

I haven't played on 360 for a while, but I'm pretty sure you can just hold left or right to scroll through your macros pretty quickly, you don't need to tap the d-pad a million times. It's not like you can't use keyboard to activate macros while playing on console thou, so it's a pretty moot argument.

Holding a button down to scroll necessarily lacks either precision or speed, and is still more work (both mental and physical) than pressing a single button which corresponds to the macro you want.

It was already mentioned that that it is less efficient to use multiple input devices when a single one will suffice, but yes I'm aware that a console player could just use a keyboard for everything. Which raises the question, why are they so opposed to moving to a PC platform in the first place?