To harass PS2 users or not?

[FinalJustice]

If something happens, you have to dynamically replan your route to go to macro C

OMG you mean, I have to press "right" one more time?? Except in this case the smart console player has strategicly placed his/her macro in a place that can be reached easily. The cursor resting position is independent on Ctrl, and Alt. I honestly don't know what situation will happen that will call upon you needing all 20 macro at the drop of a hat. I'm sorry, but the Rdms, melee soloing serket, and magic solo charby and other crap using a controller would to disagree with you.

Since the argument was never about convenience , and your only argument is "I don't have to que up my macro" i'l just repeat the same line until you can make your one button do what is stated.

And youve Still yet to show how youre 10 branch can interupt another macro other then a gear change to activate the next macro, until you do, you point is moot.

edit: added some stuff
edit: The design of the game prevents advantages of one button actions unlike in a FPS that has no such limitation.

[aurik]

Since the argument was never about convenience , and your only argument is "I don't have to que up my macro" i'l just repeat the same line until you can make your one button do what is stated.

And youve Still yet to show how youre 10 branch can interupt another macro other then a gear change to activate the next macro, until you do, you point is moot.

Go wikipedia "False Dilemma" fallacy before you post again.

[FinalJustice]

And youve Still yet to show how youre 10 branch can interupt another macro other then a gear change to activate the next macro, until you do, you point is moot.

[Cadena]

And you've still yet to show how your 10 branch can interrupt another macro other then a gear change to activate the next macro. Until you do, your point is moot.

Aurik is right and you're wrong. It's "common sense" that a keyboard is better than a controller for macros.

You might as well change gear manually and use the menu for casting, WS, et cetera.

[FinalJustice]

You might as well change gear manually and use the menu for casting, WS, et cetera.

Why on earth would I do that on ANY version of the game? Can't swap 8 pieces of gear manually in 1 sec, I can't get into a WS menu fast enough to stack SA..

sigh.. too bad the argument was never about convenience, so congrats in winning an argument that never happened?

[Cadena]

Why on earth would I do that on ANY version of the game? Can't swap 8 pieces of gear manually in 1 sec, I can't get into a WS menu fast enough to stack SA..

sigh.. too bad the argument was never about convenience, so congrats in winning an argument that never happened?

It was sarcasm. Just for the sake of arguing - using a keyboard, I can stack SA + WS because I did it today messing around on coffer mobs.

When did I say anything about it being better because of convenience?

[FinalJustice]

Because your arguing about a point that was never a part of the discussion. Let me write this AGAIN for those that missed it in a way they can't miss. I CAN, AND PLAY ON BOTH depending on where I am.

Too bad ease of use is the only argument thats there. Too bad Ctrl+1 to cast cure 3, then pressing ctrl+9 to cast stun, won't allow you to cast stun any sooner then someone who presses Right trigger+A to cast cure 3, then Left trigger+A to cast stun. Hell let's make it even more complicated then that, lets say Right trigger+A to cast cure 3, then Right trigger+right+A to cast stun. HEY let's make it even more complicated then that. Right trigger+A to cast cure 3, then Right trigger+right, right+A. Hey lets add some more rights in there. Because you know why? As long as you can reach your stun macro w/e it is, BEFORE the cure spell is qued, cast and animated at the point where you can start another action it doesn't matter.

You're only argment is "it's not fair you reset your macro cursor to be in position to where you need it, if you didn't que between actions you wouldn't' be anywhere near your macro."

The argument was about Skill, not easier buttons.

Where hot button swapping has a direct effect on FPS game play it does not In FFXI because the actions don't all take play in 100% real time, they que up, have casting times where you can't do anything else, have down time, and longer animations, that slow down in pace is what allows controller users to keep up with KB users, which is why i suffer NO loss in performance when i switch formats. The game simply doesn't allow me to take advantage of that extra speed of hot button style play. It doesn't allow me to gain SKILL over others just because of controls. The only thing it really alllows me to do is sit idle a sec longer while I wait before i can input my next command. What's teh point in bragging about a 1 sec advanatge when I can't do anything with that one sec? THAT is why in a FPS a KB can make a real difference in the game play, and in FFXI it does not. The game mechanics don't allow it.

If a Rdm on a controller is able to solo melee serket what's the point in arguing about who can reach a command faster? Ppl show everyday in this game on controllers that they are superb main healers, mages, main tanks, melee, and stunners, because they know how to compensate for the lack in one button commands, the game mechanics allow them to do it, end of story.

[Zosi]

Too bad ease of use is the only argument thats there. Too bad Ctrl+1 to cast cure 3, then pressing ctrl+9 to cast stun, won't allow you to cast stun any sooner then someone who presses Right trigger+A to cast cure 3, then Left trigger+A to cast stun.

Nice job comparing what's arguably the "hardest" combination to reach on a keyboard with the "easiest" on a controller. Guess what? I have two hands on the keyboard, I can hit Ctrl-9 just as easily as I can hit Ctrl-1. I can also hit Alt-7, or Ctrl-5 just as easily as Ctrl-1.

[FinalJustice]

Too bad ease of use is the only argument thats there. Too bad Ctrl+1 to cast cure 3, then pressing ctrl+9 to cast stun, won't allow you to cast stun any sooner then someone who presses Right trigger+A to cast cure 3, then Left trigger+A to cast stun.

Nice job comparing what's arguably the "hardest" combination to reach on a keyboard with the "easiest" on a controller. Guess what? I have two hands on the keyboard, I can hit Ctrl-9 just as easily as I can hit Ctrl-1. I can also hit Alt-7, or Ctrl-5 just as easily as Ctrl-1.

why would that be hard on a kb?
and 2. the controller command was shown because ppl DO that. They dont have the same access, so they have to place the macro before, in certain places for it to work. You have to THINK about where you place them, and what you place next to what. You would RARELY have a skill in Ctrl 1, and anoteh rmuch needed skill in Ctrl 5. On my Blu macro, guess whats in Ctrl 5 and ctrl 6?? Diffusion and convergence. OMG. You can't put them anywhere you want or it won't work. Congrats on missing the point again.

[Zosi]

. the controller command was shown because ppl DO that. They dont have the same access, so they have to place the macro before in certain places for it to work. You have to THINK about where you place them, and what you place next to what. You would RARELY have a skill in Ctrl 1, and anoteh rmuch needed skill in Ctrl 5. On my Blu macro, guess whats in Ctrl 5 and ctrl 6?? Diffusion and convergence. OMG. You can't put them anywhere you want or it won't work. Congrats on missing the point again.

Actually, that was precisely my point. I'm waiting for you to explain why having to set up your macros so you have quick access to a few of them and slower access to the rest is better than (or equal to, even) having quick access to all of them.

[FinalJustice]

Actually, that was precisely my point. I'm waiting for you to explain why having to set up your macros so you have quick access to a few of them and slower access to the rest is better than (or equal to, even) having quick access to all of them.

Am I'm waiting on you to figure out the argument wasn't about which is "better" for inputs. /waits
Having faster access to less used JA's will not make you a better player.

[Zosi]

Actually, that was precisely my point. I'm waiting for you to explain why having to set up your macros so you have quick access to a few of them and slower access to the rest is better than (or equal to, even) having quick access to all of them.

Am I'm waiting on you to figure out the argument wasn't about which is "better" for inputs. /waits
Having faster access to less used JA's will not make you a better player.

Since when has any input device MADE you a better player?

Edit: Nice job editing comments into your previous posts to support statements made later. I'll have some edit-fun too.

You can queue commands on a keyboard exactly the same as you can on a controller. It's useful in precisely the same situations, and really has nothing to do with the input device you use. It's also not as huge of a delay bypass as you make it out to be, since it only brings controller "random-access speed" up to keyboard speed when you're already waiting for something else to complete. You're still spending time pressing right or left, it's just overlapping with the time you're already spending waiting. If you aren't already casting something, that time doesn't decrease.

[FinalJustice]

Perfect example of a SKILLED player using macro scrolling OMG what's that he's doing?? readying his next macro during a spell cast?? GASP:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cuXxoLSToj4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hkmn5VBL5LM& ... ed&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJuAc4iInAw& ... ed&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sEp9lO2nhFY

I know some of you hate him, but Idc, he proves my point, someone can be just as good if not better then a KB user even with more complex controls. Just because YOU lack the hand speed to do it, doesn't make your point about SKILL valid.

You're still spending time pressing right or left, it's just overlapping with the time you're already spending waiting.

That's the point RIGHT there. Thank you for making it for me. When you are pressing left and right you are using time that you can't do anything else but wait. It's simply overlapping the time spent waiting, allowing the user to keep up with the ACTIONS of someone who would do the same action on a KB. There is no real game play advantage to say KB users play at a superior skill lvl over a controller user. ease of input has nothing to do with it in the case of ffxi.

Since when has any input device MADE you a better player?

Since this argument started because someone said a person on a controller was inferior in playing the game. And can't keep up with a KB player. And that his WHM friend only improved after switching to a mouse and Keyboard? And I gave examples about how that is not true, and a person on a controller is perfectly capable of pulling off commands just fine with proper macros placement and quick shifting? Then people like you who missed the point seemed to think i said inputing commands on controller is JUST as efficient. That's when i said the efficiency is wasted if you think it makes you a better player then a control user in FFXI, because of the delays between actions. That is why I said you people are arguing points that were never a part of the original argument.

And show me where i edited a previous post to support posts i made after. Or is it since you don't know what I did, your guessing...

Edit: In case you missed it this was the post I was arguing against. A person who claims the controller users suck, and the KB is what made his friend better.

I would have quit FFXI years and years before I did had I been forced to continue to play it on the PS2. I could smell a person a mile away who used a controller or "didnt like to use a mouse and keyboard." It was always the lazy fuck who never could claim anything, didnt macro gear, and genuinely was just slow and not as efficient as most mouse and keyboard players. (I've never met a good PS2 tank...ever. Sorry if my standards of good are higher than yours also.) I felt like I put beer goggles on everytime I tried to play on the PS2, its just a huge limitation on the tools at your disposal. Wether or not you're used to it, or wether or not you think it would be better, you can't argue that the PC is a more efficient tool for the game you're currently playing. Face the fact that you're not willing to adjust to become a better player in the end.

Our main WHM always used a controller, her boyfriend convinced her to use a mouse and keyboard, she hated it. A month later she was twice the player she was before, with new macros and just an all around easier/quicker interface via a keyboard. She said she didn't know how she managed to play the game before...I imagine most people if they actually took the time, would feel the same.

No where have I said a controller is MORE time efficient then a KB. I simply stated they can both do just about the same thing in the end, so the time efficiency by design is wasted IF you are arguing it gives you an advantage in game. So if someone else says a KB makes you a better player, I will just repost the links to Avesta.

[Charismatic]

Hey guys... who cares? I play PS2(also PC) and I use keyboard and controller depending on what I'm doing(on both, I have a USB controller for my PC, I usually use it when playing fighting games, but also for FFXI).

Generally when I want to sit back and relax, I use a controller, it's just better for lying down on my bed and playing. Keyboard just doesn't come close to being as comfortable there, comfort isn't something I would give up for more inv space or macro lines.

Also, on PC when I have my FFXI window out of focus... reading BG or whatever else I might be doing, I just use my controller because I can do both. (Keyboard can't do this as far as I know)

Those are my reasons why I think controller > keyboard in general.

[SamanosukeShiva]

As a PS2 user, I usually always crash multiple times during stuff like ix'drk and zerg fights like DL/KV.... the whole 30 secs I cant even move, it'd just freeze and go on slow-mo
and sometimes Cerberus too if so damn many ppl watching and their BRDs doing March or Ballad

edit: and DAMN! those logitech keyboard for PS2 break very easily, i've gone through 4 keyboard already since FFXI PS2 ver. release.

[Charismatic]

As a PS2 user, I usually always crash multiple times during stuff like ix'drk and zerg fights like DL/KV.... the whole 30 secs I cant even move, it'd just freeze and go on slow-mo
and sometimes Cerberus too if so damn many ppl watching and their BRDs doing March or Ballad

edit: and DAMN! those logitech keyboard for PS2 break very easily, i've gone through 4 keyboard already since FFXI PS2 ver. release.

Eh, that's your PS2, not PS2 in general.
Mine doesn't do that, the only gameplay issues I really have are more lag in whitegate and during besieged... also when a ton of players are gathered everywhere, when I try to type the text lags.

Other than that, it's pretty much the same for me.

[fussel]

(especially since many people who use PCs professionally can type in excess of 500 keystrokes per minute.)

Video or it didn't happen. 250 strokes per minute is already very fast.

/edit: nvm. I'm at almost 400 myself. Those numbers around 250 are probably from old typewriters. =)

[Zosi]

That's the point RIGHT there. Thank you for making it for me. When you are pressing left and right you are using time that you can't do anything else but wait. It's simply overlapping the time spent waiting, allowing the user to keep up with the ACTIONS of someone who would do the same action on a KB. There is no real game play advantage to say KB users play at a superior skill lvl over a controller user. ease of input has nothing to do with it in the case of ffxi.

Except... that's only when you're casting a spell already. When starting from a dead stop, you still have the delay of pressing right or left, keyboard users don't, our delay is constant whether it's the macro we expect to need or not.

Since this argument started because someone said a person on a controller was inferior in playing the game. And can't keep up with a KB player. And that his WHM friend only improved after switching to a mouse and Keyboard? And I gave examples about how that is not true, and a person on a controller is perfectly capable of pulling off commands just fine with proper macros placement and quick shifting? Then people like you who missed the point seemed to think i said inputing commands on controller is JUST as efficient. That's when i said the efficiency is wasted if you think it makes you a better player then a control user in FFXI, because of the delays between actions. That is why I said you people are arguing points that were never a part of the original argument.

I fail to see any evidence in that paragraph whatsoever that playing on a controller MAKES you a better player.

And show me where i edited a previous post to support posts i made after. Or is it since you don't know what I did, your guessing...

If a Rdm on a controller is able to solo melee serket what's the point in arguing about who can reach a command faster? Ppl show everyday in this game on controllers that they are superb main healers, mages, main tanks, melee, and stunners, because they know how to compensate for the lack in one button commands, the game mechanics allow them to do it, end of story.

Bolded part was the original, post was edited to include the non-bold afterwards. It was edited a half hour after posting (posted 11:51pm, edited 12:21am), 4 minutes after my reply was posted (12:17am).

[FinalJustice]

Except... that's only when you're casting a spell already. When starting from a dead stop, you still have the delay of pressing right or left, keyboard users don't, our delay is constant whether it's the macro we expect to need or not.

Sorry, that depends on where your macro cursor is, and if this macro is your first action it will most likely be sitting there just like mine is. If i'm a healing, the last place i leave my macro idle on, after moving it to do something else, is back to the healing macro. And the delay of pressing one right is less then half a sec, again, it doesn't matter. Again it's about macro placement.

I fail to see any evidence in that paragraph whatsoever that playing on a controller MAKES you a better player.

Because, GASP, it doesn't say that it does. Once again congrats. I never said a CONTROLLER MADE you a better player. Stop reading what you want to read.

Bolded part was the original, post was edited to include the non-bold afterwards. It was edited a half hour after posting (posted 11:51pm, edited 12:21am), 4 minutes after my reply was posted (12:17am).

The stuff added after had nothing to do with your post, and doesn't support anything outside the post it's in.

[Charismatic]

Why are you guys even still arguing this? Sure the keyboard allows you do things in less button presses, but that doesn't change shit.

You can argue semantics all day long (I usually do it when trolling, actually!) but the fact is... it doesn't make a bit of difference guys, your arguments are inert. If you don't get it, google "the balls are inert"
Both sides make valid points, but like FinalJustice said, a kb player won't be any better at the game if both are playing at their peak because of delay times. So, neither is better than the other at simply controlling the game since you'll get the same results.

But I've already given my reasons why I prefer the controller for other things, but I usually use the keyboard when I am actually sitting in front of my PC or PS2 just because it's more efficient(even though I could do the same shit on my controller at the same in-game speed, with more button presses).