To harass PS2 users or not?

[aurik]

Yea try pitching that one to SE customer support and see how far you get

[fantasticdan]

How do you know how big the PS2 portion of the market is? It's definitely dwindling, as PS2 slowly die and PS2s that support FFXI are no longer produced. They don't announce what portion of the market is made up of each platform, so what justification do you have to say it's a "huge portion"?

I'm sure it is dwindling, but I'm also sure PS2 users make up at least 20-25% of the people still playing, judging by jp and casual players, you can't judge everything by what you hear from english speaking endgame players. If you make the expansion PC/360 only, you're going to alienate a sizable potion of your customers, and even if many or most of those players upgraded to PC, not all of them would, so why would SE bother? To put more work into higher definition textures and models? SE would never put in more work just to make less money with less people buying the expansion pack.

We pay them to do just that right?

Yeah, except you'll keep paying them even if they don't.

[Angelsin]

As of now I don't think that's an option to consider regardless of how nice the outcome will be for the rest of the population of the game. But after a year or two when Sony has phased out PS2 games and really isn't making or doing anything with the PS2 I'm in favor of forcing ppl to move over.

[Volken]

everquest did it forever, old client models were color swapped, new client models were actually build armor
just recolor the IM/errant body a few hundred times for PS2 users and they will start switching when the PC/Xbox/360 players have floaty awesome pretty shinys

Or just make it so all ps2 users have the same char model and clothes: Naked hume with a paper bag on their head, and a potato sack over their body that reads "PS2" or "PS2 4 Life"

And weapon models? Cardboard tubes (though I would like one for SAM to be honest...)

lol I love you already

[aurik]

How do you know how big the PS2 portion of the market is? It's definitely dwindling, as PS2 slowly die and PS2s that support FFXI are no longer produced. They don't announce what portion of the market is made up of each platform, so what justification do you have to say it's a "huge portion"?

I'm sure it is dwindling, but I'm also sure PS2 users make up at least 20-25% of the people still playing, judging by jp and casual players, you can't judge everything by what you hear from english speaking endgame players. If you make the expansion PC/360 only, you're going to alienate a sizable potion of your customers, and even if many or most of those players upgraded to PC, not all of them would, so why would SE bother? To put more work into higher definition textures and models? SE would never put in more work just to make less money with less people buying the expansion pack.

Wait, you guesstimate the size of the PS2 userbase and then say that guessing is unreliable? Way to debunk your own figures, I guess you saved me the time.

As for "why would SE bother", you fail to realize that SE is also slowly bleeding subscribers because they fail to deliver on what the playerbase wants most: more inventory space, better macro system, better UI, new models for armor, monsters, and players. That's the opportunity cost of continuing to support a fading, frustratingly resource-limited SKU.

At the same time they're also spending a huge chunk of resources simply making additions run on PS2 in the first place. Wanna know why it takes so long for them to implement really basic shit? It's because they have to figure out how to fit it into 32 MB of ram. That's the same amount of ram I had on my PC back in 1996.

At some point, it becomes way more attractive to throw PS2 users a bone in the form of a coupon to upgrade to PC FFXI and then tell them, "sorry no more new content for PS2". I bet they'd get a very high conversion rate if they released a "PS2-to-PC-upgrade expansion bundle" which came with
1) PC install discs but no reg keys for FFXI base, Zilart, CoP, TAU (allowing PS2 users to play the full game on PC if they have all the expansions already for PS2)
2) PC install discs and a reg key for WotG
3) a credit for a free month
But in the package, include the poison pill that once upgraded, players will no longer be able to access their account through the PS2.

[6souls]

i'll stop playing on my ps2 when the machine decides to fizzle pop.

[aurik]

Would you say the same thing if PC users could get 80 slots to your 60?

[rrynn]

i live in a very small apt (gogo nyc rents) with another geek. we already have too much technology crammed into too small a space - power strips plugged into power strips - made worse by the fact we cannot agree on mac vs pc and therefore need one of each. i litterally do not have room for a desktop, no where to put it.

we have an xbox360, but, i have bought (and discarded in disgust) over 15 xbox controllers. i cannot find one that i can use for more than an hr before my hands are cramped up and screaming at me. even the small ones are just awkward for me somehow.

so. i play on ps2.

i know a desktop that would play ffxi would be cheap, but, even tho my current machine is by no means a dinosaur it lags intollerably even in jeuno. going into laggate, or god forbid, dynamis, on it would be impossible.

send me the 2k a laptop that would run the game tollerably would run me, or tell me how to mod my xbox so i can plug my ps2 'troller into it and i will gladly switch platforms. until then i'll be playing on ps2.

[aurik]

i live in a very small apt (gogo nyc rents) with another geek. we already have too much technology crammed into too small a space - power strips plugged into power strips - made worse by the fact we cannot agree on mac vs pc and therefore need one of each. i litterally do not have room for a desktop, no where to put it.

we have an xbox360, but, i have bought (and discarded in disgust) over 15 xbox controllers. i cannot find one that i can use for more than an hr before my hands are cramped up and screaming at me. even the small ones are just awkward for me somehow.

so. i play on ps2.

i know a desktop that would play ffxi would be cheap, but, even tho my current machine is by no means a dinosaur it lags intollerably even in jeuno. going into laggate, or god forbid, dynamis, on it would be impossible.

send me the 2k a laptop that would run the game tollerably would run me, or tell me how to mod my xbox so i can plug my ps2 'troller into it and i will gladly switch platforms. until then i'll be playing on ps2.

How about we just write you off as the "price of progress" and make the other 499,999 subscribers happier?

[Heian]

You guys do realize SE is working on their second generation MMO? Why pour so many resources into FFXI when in the next year or two they will have another MMO product out? Chances are this is their logic because it makes the most business sense to them. They are not going to devote a lot of time and money to FFXI when they have so many other things going on.

[shihei]

lol my ps2 still runs ffxi better then a brand new $600 Hp desktop.
If they wanted to upgrade pc graphics and stuff but not fuck with the ps2 version i wouldn't mind it.
Seriously though, this mmo is old. You will have far more luck waiting on your next gen mmo if you really want shinies and 80slots.
PS. My lil bro told me pc macro palletes(not windower ones or w/e those other guys use) only hold 5 lines? is that right? Ps2 has 6 lines

[shihei]

lol more like make the other 300 ppl who play on the pc and read bg happy.

[aurik]

PC macros have 6 lines. If you set a PC up to the PS2's graphical capability, even crappy PCs run quite well.

Functionally, everything between all 3 SKUs are exactly the same. The main difference between the platforms is that the code is optimised to run on PS2, and therefore does things in an order that doesn't make much sense on PC / X360. PC/X360 are much more powerful than the PS2, so they manage to play the game through brute force than elegance.

[Sepukku]

The market for PS2 users doesn't have to be that large for SE to lose out on a lot of money. Even assume only 10% of users are PS2 users (a low estimation I'd say, I feel its more in the 15-25% ballpark), on average having 2 mules each ($15 a month). Assume there's 1,000,000 users - I remember hearing there was 1,500,000 users a year or two ago, so once again, a low estimation? Assume forcing a PS2->PC/360 conversion causes half of those PS2 players to quit. SE is losing 50,000 users who are paying $15 a month, causing them to lose $750,000 a month, or 9 million dollars a year.

Now you might say, "Well they're going to lose PC players who will quit cause they can't have 80 slot inventories and hairstyle changes." Really, they won't. Like a person said earlier in the thread, you're still going to give them your $30 for the next expansion pack, regardless of the PS2 limitations on the game's evolution. Want to stick it to them? Cancel your content IDs and don't buy WotG. But then - why are you here? You'd no longer be playing and the game's evolution means nothing to you. Sure, you could say, "I'll start playing again when they force the PS2 conversion." - But then they'd just get your $30 for WotG when you return to FFXI.

That being said, not all the PS2 users would go quietly and accept a forced PC/360 Conversion (and yes, making all the characters on PS2 look hideous, like the 'paper bag on an armorless hume' idea would count as a forced conversion - even if it wasn't a direct order). I, for one, would quit. That's $180/year of mine SE is losing, plus all money on future expansion packs. I've had the PC version of FFXI for nearly a year now and I still can't adjust to it fully. My hands hurt after only an hour on it, where as a PS2 controller doesn't hurt my hands or wrists regardless of how long I play. Most PS2 users don't care about the graphics disadvantage, if I want to take a pretty SS that is THAT important, I'll just log onto PC and take it. Sure, I can't see your TP, but after 4 and a half years, I've been so accustomed to asking for TP and people responding, it doesn't bother me one bit.

I can count on one hand (with a couple fingers cut off), the number of people who have chewed me out for not having a windower with TP Plug-in, and one of them is banned now cause he was dumb enough to say it on /party that he has Windower, TP Plugin, and all the other add-ons, including <pos>Warp stuff that he was kind enough to use in the PT and type in the chat log that he used it.

PS2 isn't going anywhere, anytime soon. At least 2 more years before SE even begins hinting at serious, impending PS2->PC/360 plans.

[LD]

2 years is shorter than you think...

[aurik]

1) I doubt you'll lose half the PS2 players if you give them an upgrade pack which allows them to transition to PC easily. As I said before, most PS2 players have a PC already capable. Those who don't, the cheapest desktop PC you can find can run the game fine.

2) You haven't accounted for the additional expenses SE is spending maintaining the venerable PS2

3) There are plenty of people who quit the game monthly because they're frustrated or bored or unsatisfied. A big cause of those feelings is because tying the game to the PS2 makes it very difficult for SE to react to the playerbase's needs.

They'd lose some people, I'm sure. They'd also lengthen the lifespan of the game. And cut down development costs. And speed up development rate. And expand the amount of things they can accomplish. There's extremely significant upside to amputating PS2 support, and done correctly they can minimize the portion of the playerbase they actually lose.

[fantasticdan]

Wait, you guesstimate the size of the PS2 userbase and then say that guessing is unreliable?

No, I just implied that your estimate was inaccurate.

As for "why would SE bother", you fail to realize that SE is also slowly bleeding subscribers because they fail to deliver on what the playerbase wants most: more inventory space, better macro system, better UI,

Are you, or any players you know personally quitting because of the 60 inventory space limit, the default 6 line macro system without windower, or another UI? Sure they are inconvenient, and make most endgame players want to run 3rd party programs with their FFXI, but I doubt many, if any at all are quitting for those reasons. And even if a very small number of players are quitting for those reasons, can you honestly tell me that those players outnumber those PS2 users that wouldn't upgrade, if some mandatory switch were implemented?

As for recycled monster models and armor models, sure that is pretty lame, but that doesn't mean it's in SE's best interest to drop the PS2 and create more unique content. I agree with the people above, they don't want to devote much resources towards FFXI at all at this point, with many other projects in the works including one or two MMORPGs. Really, they just want to squeeze what's left out of this game with the least effort and manpower possible, as if the next expansion with it's primary focus on recycled zones wasn't proof enough. Allocating resources and time just to drop a percentage of paying customers and revamping the game for a few disgruntled players surely isn't appealing to SE.

[aurik]

Wait, you guesstimate the size of the PS2 userbase and then say that guessing is unreliable?

No, I just implied that your estimate was inaccurate.

I didn't make an estimate, so good job pushing down that straw-man.

As for "why would SE bother", you fail to realize that SE is also slowly bleeding subscribers because they fail to deliver on what the playerbase wants most: more inventory space, better macro system, better UI,

Are you, or any players you know personally quitting because of the 60 inventory space limit, the default 6 line macro system without windower, or another UI? Sure they are inconvenient, and make most endgame players want to run 3rd party programs with their FFXI, but I doubt many, if any at all are quitting for those reasons. And even if a very small number of players are quitting for those reasons, can you honestly tell me that those players outnumber those PS2 users that wouldn't upgrade, if some mandatory switch were implemented?

As for recycled monster models and armor models, sure that is pretty lame, but that doesn't mean it's in SE's best interest to drop the PS2 and create more unique content. I agree with the people above, they don't want to devote much resources towards FFXI at all at this point, with many other projects in the works including one or two MMORPGs. Really, they just want to squeeze what's left out of this game with the least effort and manpower possible, as if the next expansion with it's primary focus on recycled zones wasn't proof enough. Allocating resources and time just to drop a percentage of paying customers and revamping the game for a few disgruntled players surely isn't appealing to SE.

I know lots of people who bitch almost daily about inventory size limits. I know even more people who otherwise don't cheat that run tools that could get them banned specifically to work around the crappy macro system. Frustrate a player enough and he'll quit; these are just the most visible examples. I can name a dozen other frustrating things caused by FFXI's PS2 sku, and you'd have to be retarded to think that these frustrations aren't contributing to people looking yonder for subscription games.

If they simply cut out PS2 development and instead focussed 100% on easier-to-work-with platforms, they'd get a whole lot more done without spending another dime of developer time. Why spend more manpower when you can spend less and get more done?

[Mifaco]

Remember: PS2 limitations cause the alliance bar to disappear when you open the main menu.

[LinktheDeme]

Wait, you guesstimate the size of the PS2 userbase and then say that guessing is unreliable?

No, I just implied that your estimate was inaccurate.

I didn't make an estimate, so good job pushing down that straw-man.

As for "why would SE bother", you fail to realize that SE is also slowly bleeding subscribers because they fail to deliver on what the playerbase wants most: more inventory space, better macro system, better UI,

Are you, or any players you know personally quitting because of the 60 inventory space limit, the default 6 line macro system without windower, or another UI? Sure they are inconvenient, and make most endgame players want to run 3rd party programs with their FFXI, but I doubt many, if any at all are quitting for those reasons. And even if a very small number of players are quitting for those reasons, can you honestly tell me that those players outnumber those PS2 users that wouldn't upgrade, if some mandatory switch were implemented?

As for recycled monster models and armor models, sure that is pretty lame, but that doesn't mean it's in SE's best interest to drop the PS2 and create more unique content. I agree with the people above, they don't want to devote much resources towards FFXI at all at this point, with many other projects in the works including one or two MMORPGs. Really, they just want to squeeze what's left out of this game with the least effort and manpower possible, as if the next expansion with it's primary focus on recycled zones wasn't proof enough. Allocating resources and time just to drop a percentage of paying customers and revamping the game for a few disgruntled players surely isn't appealing to SE.

I know lots of people who bitch almost daily about inventory size limits. I know even more people who otherwise don't cheat that run tools that could get them banned specifically to work around the crappy macro system. Frustrate a player enough and he'll quit; these are just the most visible examples. I can name a dozen other frustrating things caused by FFXI's PS2 sku, and you'd have to be retarded to think that these frustrations aren't contributing to people looking yonder for subscription games.

If they simply cut out PS2 development and instead focussed 100% on easier-to-work-with platforms, they'd get a whole lot more done without spending another dime of developer time. Why spend more manpower when you can spend less and get more done?

Fact is they don't give a shit about FFXI when they are working on a new MMO. Theyd have to revamp alot of things which isn't worth it while they work on a new MMO because it would be too similar to their new one and the new one wouldn't sell too well. Kind of the reason why blizzard won't release world of starcraft because theres just no need for another mmo if they can still get money out of the old one without having to one up anything. Them having no PS2 limitations on the new one would be a good sales pitch when it hits the market.