15% Haste worth sacrificing 28Att, 17Acc, 5DEX?

[Clash Perez]

Hey guys.

I've been playing around with a haste build on my Samurai, after recently obtaining a Swift Belt. I'm up to 15% haste, but it seems like I'm sacrificing a good bit in other areas to get it. I'd like to get some feedback from those who know more about the underlying mechanics than I do.

For 15% haste, I'm switching out the following pieces:

Walahra Turban from Saotome Kabuto (+5% haste, -10 Accuracy)
Dusk Gloves from Ochiudo's Kote (+3% haste, -15 Attack)
Swift Belt from Life Belt (+4% Haste, -7 Accuracy, -5 Attack)
Fuma Sune-Ate from Saotome Sune-Ate (+3% Haste, -8 Attack, -5 DEX)

No Byakko's Haidate. I'd love to get one, but my schedule and RL commitments aren't conducive to the long hours farming and god-killing that seem to be required.

According to the FFXI Calculator, this reduces my delay from 450 to 387. Haste and Hasso further reduce to 276, which is pretty sexy on paper.

Overall, I'm gaining 15% Haste, and losing 28 Attack, 17 Accuracy, and 5 Dexterity. Small price for the delay reduction?

Also, I'm still finishing up my Great Katana and Store TP merits. Once the Store TP is done, I'll be able to have a six hit build while keeping the above haste gear in.

[Credos]

I'd say that if you're going a full 8 merits into GKT you wouldn't need a ton of ACC.

Personally, my TP Setup on SAM is:

Turban
PCC
Ethereal/Brutal/Minuet
Haubergeon/Togi
Bandomusha Kote
Rajas/Sniper
Cerberus +1
Swift
Byakko's
Fuma

Depending on your party you're more than likely going to have a BRD to negate the loss in attack, and anyways I'd imagine that you're eating meat.

Overall I'd say it is worth the loss to have a larger increase in TP Gain.

[Tulun]

Yes, it is. Haste will increase your DoT, and hopefully you have a bard to make up for any loss of attack.

[theo]

Along the same lines, about how much acc would you say is acceptable before moving on to haste gear? Right now if I eat meat at colibri or mamools on SAM I tend to parse around 75% accuracy, which seems pretty damn low. I'm sitting at 297 GK skill and ~40 acc in TP gear.

Sitting on 9% haste with swift and turban, hopefully getting byakkos on sunday, and I could put on fumas but I fear losing the 6 acc from amir when I already am parsing rather low....

[Bagel]

Out of acc, atk and haste, two of these things give diminishing returns while the other gives increasing (undiminishing?) returns.

[Khamsin]

Out of acc, atk and haste, two of these things give diminishing returns while the other gives increasing (undiminishing?) returns.

Increasing would be right, I'd think. Undiminishing just suggests its not diminishing, but isn't necessarily increasing either. Just a 1:1 return on the investment, whereas haste is more than a 1:1 return, and attack/accuracy are less than a 1:1 return.

[Holsety]

Yes the sacrifice is worth it, as others have already stated the more attack you have start to recieve diminishing returns.

Also work to get a 6-hit build, its smexy

[archibaldcrane]

When I analyze gear, I count +1 atk=+1 acc=1 "point", and each % of attack speed increase as 5 "points". In cases of ties, the piece with the most acc wins.

It works great for thief anyway.

In this cause you're picking up 75 points of haste, and losing 47.5 points of atk/acc. Looks like a winrar to me. The dusk to okote is a tossup points wise, the rest are significant gains.

[Judai]

6-Hit Haste Build (Full Store TP Merits, 2GK, as well as other shit)

W.Turban
Haub+1
PCC
Brutal
Ethereal
Hachiman Kote
Rajas
Sniper's
Forager's
Swift
Shura Haidate(B.Haidate soon I hopes)
Fuma Sun-ate

Can't eat meat on HE mobs unless you get Madrigal but this is my favorite set-up atm. Only thing that would be better imo is getting Usukane, which I am working on.

The whole point to SAM is WSs. The faster you WS, the more damage you do. 6-Hit makes it one less swing and haste makes you swing faster. As long as your acc doesn't suck, you will be set. In the same regards, your dot will be better because you are hitting faster as well. The additional swings far outweigh the small damager per swing boost from the atk and such.

[Beckwin]

bit of a tangent here, but Archibald, I'd have to disagree with atk and acc being worth the same number of points. I'd put acc = 2, atk = 1 (at least).

[Martinius]

stupid question, based out of the fact that i rarely exp on my samurai:

do y'all tend to have to hold your tp frequently so as to not get your ass killed in exp? or is subbing nin commonplace in exp? i ask this because when i do exp on my samurai, i prefer to sub warrior, but as a result, frequently pull hate, and depending on how emo seigan decides to be, can be a drain on mp, thus risking breaking a chain. does this just mean i've partied with a lot of shitty players? subbing ninja really blows both in terms of DoT and ws dmg.

ok, so that whole little essay was a long way of asking if hachiman kote/fuma setup is preferable to hachiman sune-ate/dusk gloves set up when building a haste set up. while kote set would give 2 more str and 5 more attack, it would only do so under 100tp.

it might be a moot point since a 6 hit build is designed to maximize ws frequency, not number of wses fired off at 200 tp. it's just been a while since i merited on sam, and even longer since i had a genuinely kick ass merit pt on sam that made me enjoy meriting on it(while i love using it in dynamis and hnm stuff).

[sekaran]

I don't merit on SAM so I can't tell you.. but going from 74>75, I subbed NIN quite frequently. You could always just sub THF? I don't know.

[theo]

do y'all tend to have to hold your tp frequently so as to not get your ass killed in exp? or is subbing nin commonplace in exp?

I do use /nin in exp, and I use TP the moment I hit 100. Most of the time when I'm at 84% I'll be sitting poised to WS the moment I connect another hit. The only real exception is if the mob is under ~5% HP, in which case it would probably be a waste. The sooner you WS, the sooner you can start building up to your next one...

Of course I just unlocked Overwhelm today, and while the damage bonus is nice it is also a pain in the ass when the mob is constantly spinning between the other DD's. So I've been trying to decide if it is wise to hold TP and get into position, or if doing so would hurt my overall performance (via wasted TP). I guess thats just a skill that you have to learn over time.

Edit: Concerning the subjob: Don't forget, all that time spent with Seigan up on /War could be time spent with Hasso up on /Nin. I know /War will produce better overall dmg, but I love the luxery of full-time Hasso. And the security of shadows allows you to cut loose rather than holding back, which potentially helps your DoT more than zerk did in the first place (depending on how much you were holding back)

ok, so that whole little essay was a long way of asking if hachiman kote/fuma setup is preferable to hachiman sune-ate/dusk gloves set up when building a haste set up.

I would say Dusk/Hachiman Sune-Ate would be preferable for the +5 attack, but its a minimal difference either way. I haven't been able to afford Dusk quite yet, but Fumas will accomplish nearly the same results.

while kote set would give 2 more str and 5 more attack, it would only do so under 100tp.

Actually you have that backwards. Hachiman latent is only active at or over 100 TP, not under. So the latent on Hachiman is relatively worthless.

[Judai]

/nin is just a shit sub for SAM in xp or really anything other then solo. /war, or /thf if you don't trust your mages, are far better options. I WS at 100tp as much as I can and I never sub /nin and I am rarely a MP sponge. When I am a "MP sponge" it's usually because I just Med'd and hit like 3 WS in a row and owned the mob. If you need /nin to survive xp pt mobs, you and your pt are doing something wrong.

[Martinius]

ew, then why the hell would people use hachiman kote? i've always stuck with my okote for tp, alkys for ws, but as i experiment with using a haste build(i have turban and byakko's haidate, but am currently 0/4 on swift belt and a speed belt is out of my price range so i hadn't bothered exploring it until recently) i was wondering why so many people opted for the fuma/hachiman kote for anything other than that the combo is cheaper than dusk/hachiman feet.

anyways, i appreciate the answer anyone know what the lowest number of ppl that the elvaan swift belt NM can be killed with? my girlfriend's character(s) are mithra and taru, neither of which lend themselves to low number kills from my understanding.

and yeah, /nin seems to be shit in exp. i guess i just need to suck it up, and get into an ls party instead of a pick up party. oh, and come up with the money for dusk gloves. and a swift/velocious belt. lol. i love /war in exp. i only really use /thf for exp when exping on trolls or in the lolnexus. otherwise, unless im having an off day, even when splitting SA and TA, i have more tp than the timers on SA and TA make worth giving up double attack and zerk.

[archibaldcrane]

bit of a tangent here, but Archibald, I'd have to disagree with atk and acc being worth the same number of points. I'd put acc = 2, atk = 1 (at least).

Using acc=1, atk=1, attack speed+1%=5, in the optimal thief build, you get:

THF/NIN

Accuracy +56.3ish (ish because of Love Torque)
Attack +97
Haste +20%
Store TP +8
Subtle Blow +6
Double Attack rate +5%
Triple Attack rate +2.5%
Dual Wield rate + 5%

That's without merits.

Do you feel that there are situations where you'd need more than +56 acc with full dagger merits?

I've only tested this theory with thief gear builds. I feel it's more applicable with dual-wield jobs than 2h jobs (for SAM, it seems like you go for 6-hit, then work from there regardless).

If acc = 2, while atk = 1, then Peacock Charm (20 points) is better for MNK melee than Faith Torque (19.6 points). Same for any job using torque over PCC other than Dagger, Polearm, Great Katana, or Scythe. Do you agree?

Way I figure, once you have 50+ acc along with full merits for that weapon, you're close enough to acc cap that you value atk higher. Since you can get to 56 acc (on thief anyway) valuing acc and atk the same (with attack speed+ @ 5points), I don't see a reason to value acc at a 2:1 ratio to attack.

Info from: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 147142&d=0

[theo]

/nin is just a shit sub for SAM in xp or really anything other then solo. /war, or /thf if you don't trust your mages, are far better options.

For the most part, hell no I don't trust mages in pickup exp parties <.<; If its an LS party that is a different story, but I wouldn't trust most RDMs off the street to keep me alive without utsusemi.

And I hate /thf in exp parties. Why should I bother with a 60 second JA timer when I can WS 3 times that fast?

[theo]

anyways, i appreciate the answer anyone know what the lowest number of ppl that the elvaan swift belt NM can be killed with? my girlfriend's character(s) are mithra and taru, neither of which lend themselves to low number kills from my understanding.

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but I would urge you to seek out friends with hume characters if its an option After I got my swift belt I continued coming to runs so I could pop the NM for my non-hume friends. Getting enough hate only takes one game night if you kill fast enough, there is a spot in Lufaise just outside of safehold with two watchtowers in relatively close proximity.

If you go for Elvaan anyway, bring a PLD. The Elvaan takes down shadows so fast you won't know what hit you

[Judai]

/nin is just a shit sub for SAM in xp or really anything other then solo. /war, or /thf if you don't trust your mages, are far better options.

For the most part, hell no I don't trust mages in pickup exp parties <.<; If its an LS party that is a different story, but I wouldn't trust most RDMs off the street to keep me alive without utsusemi.

And I hate /thf in exp parties. Why should I bother with a 60 second JA timer when I can WS 3 times that fast?

because /nin offers you nothing but gimpness? /thf is extremely underrated sub imo, /war is great but if you are subbing /nin, you are just wasting your sub.

ew, then why the hell would people use hachiman kote? i've always stuck with my okote for tp, alkys for ws, but as i experiment with using a haste build(i have turban and byakko's haidate, but am currently 0/4 on swift belt and a speed belt is out of my price range so i hadn't bothered exploring it until recently) i was wondering why so many people opted for the fuma/hachiman kote for anything other than that the combo is cheaper than dusk/hachiman feet.

Hachiman Kote for this little thing called 6 Hit set-up, dude. Learn how it works.

[theo]

/nin is just a shit sub for SAM in xp or really anything other then solo. /war, or /thf if you don't trust your mages, are far better options.

For the most part, hell no I don't trust mages in pickup exp parties <.<; If its an LS party that is a different story, but I wouldn't trust most RDMs off the street to keep me alive without utsusemi.

And I hate /thf in exp parties. Why should I bother with a 60 second JA timer when I can WS 3 times that fast?

because /nin offers you nothing but gimpness? /thf is extremely underrated sub imo, /war is great but if you are subbing /nin, you are just wasting your sub.

/nin offers me not being face-down while Nooby McRDM is casting aquaviel. Ok, thats an exageration, but my point is that I try to minimize my damage taken to as low as possible. My first main was RDM so I try to be sympathetic in that area.

When you take hate on /war or /thf, I assume you put up Seigan right? Subbing nin offers the ability to keep Hasso up (near) full time. I only end up using Seigan in rare "oh shit" circumstances. I know that full-time hasso is not as big of a bonus compared to Berserk, but its a bonus none-the-less that should not be overlooked.