Accounts banned July 24th

[S N K]

A lot of people from Alla sometimes abuse the idea of using Real Life examples to try and cement an arguement even tho they never really seem to listen to what people are saying in the 1st place.

Tit for tat I suppose.

Dead Darters = I can spam faster and try and get claim.

[Lordwafik]

fuck claim, dead darters = more kindred seals!

[S N K]

fuck claim, dead darters = more kindred seals!

WE DON'T WANT YOUR LOGICAL SENSE MAKING POSTS!!

[Khamsin]

fuck claim, dead darters = more kindred seals!

Don't you have enough of those from... oh wait, nevermind. I forgot you don't have a BST.

[BRP]

If we are back on flies...

I don't really care what people do to their game(may it be a small cheat or a big cheat), but it's pretty annoying for someone to say "I'm not cheating" when they are.

And just so no one attacks me from being a hypocrite, I don't think Windower nor most of it's plug-ins are cheats. When the game starts to physically change, then it's cheating(things going from targetable to untargetable, character speed increasing, and so on). To me, that's very different than placing timers and rulers over your screen.

[Cephius]

And just so no one attacks me from being a hypocrite, I don't think Windower nor most of it's plug-ins are cheats. When the game starts to physically change, then it's cheating(things going from targetable to untargetable, character speed increasing, and so on). To me, that's very different than placing timers and rulers over your screen.

So removing files is cheating, but using windower macros to circumvent the game mechanics so you can macro 15 lines instead of 6 isn't? How many times have I heard "there's no option to remove darters" in this thread? Since you bring it up, where is everyone complaining how there's no option to window FFXI or to make more macro lines available? Oh wait, because everyone does it, and its convient. Oops!

CHEATING IS CHEATING, THERES NO REASON TO JUSTIFY IT, SO STOP USING WINDOWER

Sorry pal, but you can't have it both ways.

[Sagacious Sundi]

BRP never specifically mentioned macros...
Not that I'm defending it ('cause I don't really know what to think of it), but Windower macros don't give any advantage over something competitive, such as claiming a NM.

[Ryko]

You can circumvent the AOE range of a certain mob to effectively take everyone out of danger but the tanks while still being able to damage the mob/cure the tanks. It's not the tool, it's the practicality of perverting it.

[Cephius]

BRP never specifically mentioned macros...

It's implied, windower macros are built into windower itself, its not even a plug-in. And the fact still remains that by his and Xaetica's logic, something not built directly into the game is a cheat and there's no justification for cheating. It doesn't matter how it applies - claiming or convience - by their own arugments and logic, using windower makes them a hypocrite.

[BRP]

I don't use windower macros, but I guess you can say the same for TP Party right? I do use that.

But I still don't see it as cheating. I really don't see changes to menu(UI) the same as changes to the "physical" game. I will admit TP Party is dipping into gray area because it's little bit more than hitting Cltr+M and looking at your Stun spell timer, but I can't say the same for macros, since the worst you can accuse it of is typing for you.

In any case, my agruement is never going to be usefulness vs usefulness, but whether or not it actually changes the game. Some things I would suggest to other players do sometimes dip into the gray, but it's nothing like making things untargetable, that's more so in the black(but not nearly as dark as pos-ing and botting and RMTing).

EDIT: You shouldn't pair my point with someone else, I don't read that guys post beyond the initial statement I quoted. One can cheat all they like, but call it cheating.

EDIT2: Before I started using Distance, I would cast spells and cancel them until I no longer could, then take one step forward and cast from there. I know some players use it as a crutch, but the only time I really ever rely on it is when I'm soloing because it's nice to know if the monster is about to hit you(within 5 feet/yalms whatever), not that it actually prevents anything.

[Cephius]

Windower doesn't just change the UI though. Brandson's fonts change the UI, I don't think anyone would argue that it's quite harmless (or is it? You are changing the dats after all, onoes) and doesn't change anything with the game mechanics. A lot of things windower does gives you an advantage over those who don't - being able to look up a map while playing for example. Even for TP party, one could argue that being able to see that MP is low in the middle of a hectic portion of a tiamat fight and call for a sleep is an advantage and may even save a LS that would have wiped otherwise.

So I ask again, how does one justify windower but not removing dats?

The answer is that it's a freaking game, people are going to do what they can to make it easier on themselves. SE would have us all be mindless drones that can't even view webpages without leaving the game. They'd also have us standing in aery tabbing around and hoping that when the mob pops we can target the right thing and claim it before someone who bots does. People who cry about removing dats are EXACTLY the same type of people who cry about windower. Get over it.

EDIT: You did agree with him that cheating is cheating, and I'm lumping you together for that purpose. I'm not putting any words in your mouth.

[BRP]

(or is it? You are changing the dats after all, onoes)

I think it's more the whole changing a targetable .dat to a untargetable .dat that's cheating. Changing treasure chests to avoid mimics in Assault, changing walls so you can see through them, and changing monster dats so you know what to pull and in what order(like in Salvage) would also be forms of cheating. Changing one's Dalmantica to blue or putting on some faggy Cloud hair wouldn't be.

Even for TP party

I admit this is gray area, but really, at it's greatest it's just a poor substitute for Vent/TS(which, from my experience, is just as rare or rarer for people to have). "I have low MP/<mp>" or "I have over 100 TP/<tp>" are not hard to say or type in chat(might even be able to attach it to a cure macro). Just saves some typing or talking.

People who cry about removing dats are EXACTLY the same type of people who cry about windower.

I'm neither, but I guess you could put me under "People who cry when people don't call it cheating when it is".

In any case, I don't care if people have more of an advantage over someone else, that's not what makes it cheating to me(because really, 12 smart people will be beat out 30 dumb people any day, tools or no tools). Changing game mechanics, as you put it, does make it cheating.

[Zarath]

Man... I thought BG was better than KI and Alla (wtf windower is a cheat debate...)

Windower is definitely not a cheat, to me and a lot of people, it's just a tool that offers convenience and efficiency. Nothing that windower has developed has offered PCs an advantages over anyone else, or circumvent game mechanics, cept one plug-in.

With the subject on hand, how is having 3 macro spots vs using a windower macro any different? It's not, it's not circumventing game mechanics in any way, rather windower offers an alternate solution to macro space efficiency, would you rather have 3 macro slots (18 lines) or 1 windower macro (15 lines using the example)?

The bulk of windower plug-ins offers only a faster method of convoying information to a player, MP constraints? nothing a "<mp> I'm low on mp" can't solve. A lot of the plug-ins don't offer a player an advantage rather just a faster method of sending information to a player.

Windower is not a cheat, rather it's a tool that is against the ToS, which are just a set of rules set by a third party. Anything created outside the game's programming to be used with the game is against the ToS however it doesn't automatically can be rated as a cheat, rather it's just breaking the rules. Yes, it's against the ToS however whether or not SE will act on a user who uses windower is up for debate (and we all know SE already doesn't care). A cheat is a tool that offers a PC game mechanic alterations and/or offers unfair advantages, may it be running speed or botting, against other players.

The ONLY real cheat that windower offers as a plug-in is drawdistance, which does alter your game mechanics in changing how much of the region it renders.

[Shuvo]

Man... I thought BG was better than KI and Alla (wtf windower is a cheat debate...)

The ONLY real cheat that windower offers as a plug-in is drawdistance, which does alter your game mechanics in changing how much of the region it renders.

It's not what 'game mechanics' refer to in this context, they are reffering to more of a gameplay element, not the 3d Engine.... So no, it most certainly is not a cheat.

Stuff like like the distance plugin (that lets you see your distance from a mob in yalms or w/e the vanadiel metric is) is game mechanic altering, as it removes an element of skill from the game (e.g. staying exactly 20.1 units away from Cerberus to avoid GoH, as opposed to using your own good judgement etc). Using something like FFXIAssist to show when Refresh has worn off a pt member is game mechanic altering, as it removes a lot of the skill element needed for a RDM to play properly, etc. DrawDistance is not.

I agree with BRP 100%, I myself use only the bare WIndower with DrawDistance, TParty (iffy about this) and the IME plugin enabled, and this will never change.

[Zarath]

Stuff like like the distance plugin (that lets you see your distance from a mob in yalms or w/e the vanadiel metric is) is game mechanic altering, as it removes an element of skill from the game (e.g. staying exactly 20.1 units away from Cerberus to avoid GoH, as opposed to using your own good judgement etc). Using something like FFXIAssist to show when Refresh has worn off a pt member is game mechanic altering, as it removes a lot of the skill element needed for a RDM to play properly, etc. DrawDistance is not.

Idk about you but game mechanics to me are changing what the game is, not finding out information that is already readily available to me. Distance plugin is not a game mechanic altering, I know exactly where 20 yalms are, I've played BRD for 3 years, I know my distances exactly to a fraction of a yalm without the use of distance plugin, does it take any amount of skill to know how far to stand? Possibly, to me not really.

Removing the challenge and skill isn't game altering, it's called being a noob.

[Ryko]

I know exactly when my PT members have 100 TP or higher, it doesn't change that most people don't and need tparty to see it. You know where 20.1 is, doesn't change most don't and require the tool to effectively circumvent a danger involving a regularly killed HNM.

[BRP]

I know exactly when my PT members have 100 TP or higher, it doesn't change that most people don't and need tparty to see it. You know where 20.1 is, doesn't change most don't and require the tool to effectively circumvent a danger involving a regularly killed HNM.

A crutch is still different than a cheat.

[Shuvo]

Stuff like like the distance plugin (that lets you see your distance from a mob in yalms or w/e the vanadiel metric is) is game mechanic altering, as it removes an element of skill from the game (e.g. staying exactly 20.1 units away from Cerberus to avoid GoH, as opposed to using your own good judgement etc). Using something like FFXIAssist to show when Refresh has worn off a pt member is game mechanic altering, as it removes a lot of the skill element needed for a RDM to play properly, etc. DrawDistance is not.

Idk about you but game mechanics to me are changing what the game is, not finding out information that is already readily available to me. Distance plugin is not a game mechanic altering, I know exactly where 20 yalms are, I've played BRD for 3 years, I know my distances exactly to a fraction of a yalm without the use of distance plugin, does it take any amount of skill to know how far to stand? Possibly, to me not really.

Removing the challenge and skill isn't game altering, it's called being a noob.

Again, 'game mechanics' in this context refers to gameplay elements, not the 3d engine.

And if you think using a tool to remove the challange and skill is not game altering, then their really is no point to argueing about this.

[Kaslo]

I do envy windower macros tho >.>; my RDM would like more the 5 gear changes a spell ;p

[fussel]

Not that I'm defending it ('cause I don't really know what to think of it), but Windower macros don't give any advantage over something competitive, such as claiming a NM.

But the distance plugin does (you know if you're near enough for Flash/Voke/Whatever).

Still, windower without any plugins = plain FFXI with the ability to use a browser or something. Any plugins = modification to original gameplay. My original stance on windower: Use it, without plugins it should be safe. But don't cry for a ban for 3rd party software. This will change with official window mode release: It'll no longer be neccessary, so uninstall that thing or GTFO. What do you mean, you can't play without windower macros any more?

/edit: Oh, about removing darters. Removing an obstacle in a game. Just TRY to argue with a CS player how a wall hack is not a cheat. (Disclaimer: My CS playtime is around one hour, I just don't like it)