Whats better?

[Amele]

I tried reading that thread and I don't know how they came to that conclusion with such limited testing...

And the Temenos test was completely useless to begin with, and they were even doing that Temenos zone incorrectly...

yeah, the only thing that I saw was tests with base accuracy of 70% and observed weaponskill accuracy in the 90's. now; the expected ws acc is much higher than tp acc (thanks to zanshin and double attack spoiling the miss rate) but it's not -that- much higher (the miss rate retry is basically DA+(1-DA)ZA; filter by accuracy and whether or not you believe Zanshin gives an acc bonus on the reswing etc.)

to be fair to the tests I've seen, I think it is clear that there is -something- going on that we don't entirely understand that is boosting the ws rate on y/g/k; at least in that situation. the sample size was not large enough to speculate on the magnitude of the boost beyond saying that it was there; and the situations the tests covered were not varied enough to state unequivocally that the bonus occurs in all situations.

but I think it's equally wrong of us to say that it can't possibly be right at all, since even with as few as 30 weaponskills you should see more misses than 3 when your base accuracy is about 70%

[ringthree]

yeah, the only thing that I saw was tests with base accuracy of 70% and observed weaponskill accuracy in the 90's. now; the expected ws acc is much higher than tp acc (thanks to zanshin and double attack spoiling the miss rate) but it's not -that- much higher (the miss rate retry is basically DA+(1-DA)ZA; filter by accuracy and whether or not you believe Zanshin gives an acc bonus on the reswing etc.)

to be fair to the tests I've seen, I think it is clear that there is -something- going on that we don't entirely understand that is boosting the ws rate on y/g/k; at least in that situation. the sample size was not large enough to speculate on the magnitude of the boost beyond saying that it was there; and the situations the tests covered were not varied enough to state unequivocally that the bonus occurs in all situations.

but I think it's equally wrong of us to say that it can't possibly be right at all, since even with as few as 30 weaponskills you should see more misses than 3 when your base accuracy is about 70%

I completely agree about accuracy, and I don't know if it's because of gorgets or just Y/G/K or all one-hit weapon skills, or the first hit of all WS's. But it is definitely noticeable.

I am more concerned with their observations of a +200 Att bonus/60% pDif bonus to attack on Y/G/K. I really have no idea how they lifted that information.

[Gunslinger]

to be fair to the tests I've seen, I think it is clear that there is -something- going on that we don't entirely understand that is boosting the ws rate on y/g/k; at least in that situation

Maybe SE forgot to fix the old re-nerf on 2-handed weapons with these weaponskills, or kept the 1:1 ratio for dex the same. Would this be enough to explain the difference? Also, if we point it out and it's right, does SE nerf SAM again? ^_____________^

[ringthree]

Kirin's Osode vs. Usukane Haramaki for Y/G/K?

[Amele]

Maybe SE forgot to fix the old re-nerf on 2-handed weapons with these weaponskills, or kept the 1:1 ratio for dex the same. Would this be enough to explain the difference? Also, if we point it out and it's right, does SE nerf SAM again? ^_____________^

not likely. ask any sam who kept logs from before the whole nerf/buff phase; Y/G/K actually do less damage now than they did before SE touched 2h damage at all. (in exchange, sam got better overall dps and the ability to say 'Oh hell no!' to going sam/thf to everything remotely dangerous, so I think it's a positive trade)

people claiming a pdif bonus are saying it because of stuff like 900 damage SA-ws on jol (which you hit on non-ws for something like 0-30 depending on whether it has it's defense buff up) but I'm skeptical still because it doesn't really make sense to me unless it's not a pdif bonus but a level difference ignore. (if my pdif were given a 60% bonus on colibri it'd be nailed to the 2h roof - which is what. 2.8? and you'd never see a hit below about 700; which is provably false.)

[Callisto]

Wondering if it's maybe something like what Detonator got? I keep seeing it described as a ranged attack bonus, however I've seen Detonators higher than what should have been possible even with capped attack, it seemed it was possibly cRatio or pDIF was being directly doubled(forgot which made sense at the time and haven't gotten to play COR in forever.)

[Vodou]

yeah, the only thing that I saw was tests with base accuracy of 70% and observed weaponskill accuracy in the 90's. now; the expected ws acc is much higher than tp acc (thanks to zanshin and double attack spoiling the miss rate) but it's not -that- much higher (the miss rate retry is basically DA+(1-DA)ZA; filter by accuracy and whether or not you believe Zanshin gives an acc bonus on the reswing etc.)

to be fair to the tests I've seen, I think it is clear that there is -something- going on that we don't entirely understand that is boosting the ws rate on y/g/k; at least in that situation. the sample size was not large enough to speculate on the magnitude of the boost beyond saying that it was there; and the situations the tests covered were not varied enough to state unequivocally that the bonus occurs in all situations.

but I think it's equally wrong of us to say that it can't possibly be right at all, since even with as few as 30 weaponskills you should see more misses than 3 when your base accuracy is about 70%

This has been tested extensively and posted.


Ruke posted it months ago using a 1-2 hour parse (Its here on bg somewhere). The Japanese posted extensive testing on multiple mobs (a link is also here somewhere.) The post you are talking about (on Alla) added more parse data and also has the translated Jp post linked. In fact, anyone who has a parse for any melee jobs that primarily use 1-hit WS AND who also is well BELOW capped melee accuracy will see a clear gain in WS accuracy.


This is the current theory supported by the above posts:

1) The first and ONLY the first hit of any WS receives a large bonus (of about +50-70 acc.)

2) The second hit gets no bonus, but if you have the appropriate gorget, you will get +10 accuracy (sans the ftp bonus).

3) It is presumed and parses on ranged weapons suggest that the racc bonus is similar to the acc bonus.

These tests and results were done AFTER correcting for or removing and DA or Zanshin effects. Regardless, not sure that anyone could ascribe these variances to Zanshin. That is why test excluding DA (or corrections for DA) are done.

[Amele]

This has been tested extensively and posted.


Ruke posted it months ago using a 1-2 hour parse (Its here on bg somewhere). The Japanese posted extensive testing on multiple mobs (a link is also here somewhere.) The post you are talking about (on Alla) added more parse data and also has the translated Jp post linked. In fact, anyone who has a parse for any melee jobs that primarily use 1-hit WS AND who also is well BELOW capped melee accuracy will see a clear gain in WS accuracy.


This is the current theory supported by the above posts:

1) The first and ONLY the first hit of any WS receives a large bonus (of about +50-70 acc.)

2) The second hit gets no bonus, but if you have the appropriate gorget, you will get +10 accuracy (sans the ftp bonus).

3) It is presumed and parses on ranged weapons suggest that the racc bonus is similar to the acc bonus.

These tests and results were done AFTER correcting for or removing and DA or Zanshin effects. Regardless, not sure that anyone could ascribe these variances to Zanshin. That is why test excluding DA (or corrections for DA) are done.

I'm not disputing that there is a bonus; there have been several (the first alla post among them) that did not correct for DA or zanshin; I am disputing that the bonus is as large in all situations as people are claiming.

the simple fact of the matter is people -don't know- what the bonus is or what governs the size of it; no testing has to my knowledge been done to actually nail down the exact mechanics of the bonus.


it could easily be a level difference ignoring - which would also neatly explain the observed pdif bonus on several of these ws; and explain why you can land a 900+ on a level 90 jol but still see 500somethings on a level 81 colibri;

the exact magnitude of the acc bonus (and attack bonus for that matter) could vary wildly with what you're fighting. it also may not be 50+; for all you know, against a DC the mechanic works out as an acc -penalty- (not that anyone would actually care; the point is it isn't tested enough to say "50+ acc bonus, case closed"


it could be a %scalar against your current accuracy gear too. (or current skill, etc) it could have a cap below the 95% absolute cap. etc. I'm a skeptic for a reason

[minni]

I now have the oppurtunity to complete a relic weapon and have already begun buying currency and sponsering dynamis.

I am split between Amano and Apoc, they are generally considered the strongest weapons out of all the relics (or atleast thats how it seems), GA also but war/sam is already at a large advantage so the improvement is less.

Feedback from relic owners or people who have observed either of these relics used to their full potential in all the various activities (HNMs, Limbus/Merit/Ein, any other different events that don't really fall into those 2 categories).

I don't really want to ask "Which is the better relic?" but I would like to know which has the most potential on high level mobs/low level mobs and what kind of support is required to carry it off.

Edit: Assuming maxed, or very close to maxed gear and aggresive playstyle.

i asked the same thing in this thread (page 3+)
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ffxi-...ic-weapon.html

basically, only 1 of those relics (GA, GK, polearm, scythe) will change the way you play the according job, and that's the one i choose.

[ringthree]

i asked the same thing in this thread (page 3+)
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ffxi-...ic-weapon.html

basically, only 1 of those relics (GA, GK, polearm, scythe) will change the way you play the according job, and that's the one i choose.

Which one actually changed the way you played the job? Swing, use JA, WS. They are all pretty much the same in that respect.

[Trime]

I'm not necessarily interested in changing the way I play a job. I'm after the one that will allow me to perform the best across the standard vairety of endgame activities.

If I spend the time and gil collecting/sponsering for all the currency I want to make sure I am maxamising one of my DD jobs to perform above what any job is capable of.

Apoc may change the whole way you approach drk in a number of situations, but in a good party you can hasso most of the time anyway because mobs die so fast and if the mage can support you without the drain from WS it looses some of its worth (this is just for the situations where you have the support). Obviously the drain is extremely useful in some situations and will allow the use of Hasso more often.

But at the same time Scythe WS (excluding Cata, I have no idea how this performs) are pretty crappy on HNM, especially without a brd, Spiral Hell needs 300% tp to be worthwhile so that sucks also.

Also, how does the DoT compare, I have 21% haste on sam currently so I'm missing 4% (5%?) from the haste cap in gear but obviously Apoc would allow anyone with it to cap gear haste quite easily. Amano has a notably lower delay, so with standard party buffs (2x march, haste) will amano still swing faster than apoc?

Right now my biggest concern between the 2 is WS performance on HNM as I feel that Amano can win in merit situations or similar level mobs.

And yes I did thoroughly read through the thread you linked as it was being posted in. But naturally it was asking a biased question. Amano and Apoc are both weapons and both do the same thing, I just want to know which one does it better and I'm not convinced there isn't a solid yes or no answer for this (or atleast several answers that change from the level of the mob and amount of support).

[kayn]

To get the most out of a job at HNMs level blm and thf.

[Tubbers]

LS mate is getting Bravura this Monday, and asked if 6-hit is worth it or not.

Edit: I had builds listed but they were wrong because I forgot /SAM is +15 STP and not +10, it's basically Askar Body+Ecphoria Ring or Aurum Cuirass as 6-hit vs E.Body+Sniper+1 or E.Body as 7-hit

[kayn]

Does that include /sam's +15?

[Tubbers]

... +15... right... guh I put it down as +10 for some reason

[Reznap]

LS mate is getting Bravura this Monday, and asked if 6-hit is worth it or not.

Edit: I had builds listed but they were wrong because I forgot /SAM is +15 STP and not +10, it's basically Askar Body+Ecphoria Ring or Aurum Cuirass as 6-hit vs E.Body+Sniper+1 or E.Body as 7-hit

ebody + spam carbonara (tier3 synth if he knows any people with cooking capped) And ya, 6hit is defiantly worth it.

[Valyana]

You need Hocho to get tier 3 on Carbonara (107 skill).

[Reznap]

meh, i was thinking it was 51 cap which is pretty sad since its only thing i use my cooking for.

[_chuchu]

Fenrir's earring (at night) or Triumph Earring? Under the assumption 1str=2-2.5rattk for ws (sidewinder,) I'm leaning towards the Fenrir's at night. Is it worth it at all or e-peen?. halp <3

[matix]

use the fenrir ear as long as the macroing doesn't bother you, if you're in a situation where you've got real high r.atk the triumph could perform better, but the short answer is the fenrir's is better during the nightime