Whats better?

[Callisto]

Elemental Grips vs Bugard Strap +1 for Red Mage with full Elemental/Enfeebling Merits for nuking/Enfeebling(Bind, Grav)

I want to know if I can clear up a bit of space in my inventory without gimping myself.

Bugard +1 and Dark Grip = all you need.

[Natara]

I'm 3/3/4 bergressor / DA, but there's a good argument for 5 zerk / 5 DA. 5 aggressor merits only averages out to around 3 extra acc, much less potent than the others. 5 zerk merits is around a 3% average gain in attack, or about 13 attack if your base attack is 450. And 5 DA is obviously 5 DA. So...diabolos earring, brutal earring, vs. Fenrir's Earring +1?

I just go 3/3/4 for my sanity tho.

Yeah 2/2/5 or 2/3/5 is what I was thinking of doing, Maybe I will just do 2/2/5 for now and use merits elsewhere after and when I have 5 spare merits then I will up my Aggressor to lv 3.

How much dmg % wise does 1% double attack give us?

[Tordall]

Yeah 2/2/5 or 2/3/5 is what I was thinking of doing, Maybe I will just do 2/2/5 for now and use merits elsewhere after and when I have 5 spare merits then I will up my Aggressor to lv 3.

How much dmg % wise does 1% double attack give us?

Double attack goes on the numerator, so you get less of a bonus for each % double attack. Attack rate is:

(1 + double attack rate + 2 * triple attack rate) / (1 + slow% - haste%)

So, going from 17% double attack rate to 18% double attack rate boosts your attack rate by:
(1 + .18) / (1 + .17) = .85%

Personally, I did 3/3/4. Not b/c I really know it's better, but b/c if I don't keep my berserk & aggressor timers the same I eventually use one without the other.

[FailureMidgard]

Double attack goes on the numerator, so you get less of a bonus for each % double attack. Attack rate is:

(1 + double attack rate + 2 * triple attack rate) / (1 + slow% - haste%)

So, going from 17% double attack rate to 18% double attack rate boosts your attack rate by:
(1 + .18) / (1 + .17) = .85%

Personally, I did 3/3/4. Not b/c I really know it's better, but b/c if I don't keep my berserk & aggressor timers the same I eventually use one without the other.

Why do people keep saying this "keep timers the same" crap? You can keep timers the same with 2/2/5, and spend less merit points, and do MORE DAMAGE. What you meant was, you felt it was more important to raise 10 things in g1 than to do more damage (though, could just do 1 in warcry for the hell of it).

But yea, the 1% DA is about a 0.85% increase.
3rd point in Aggressor is about a .3% increase.
3rd point in Berserk is about a .4% increase.

[Max™]

Coulda done 1 macro with 2/2/5 and been better off, IMO.

I was sleepy and messed up though.

I meant to say I was 2/3/4 and going to do 2/3/5, but just put the last merit into Agg for 3/3/4 as it was cheaper.

I don't care about a marginal gain in effectiveness for meriting, as I don't merit anymore.

[FailureMidgard]

I was sleepy and messed up though.

I meant to say I was 2/3/4 and going to do 2/3/5, but just put the last merit into Agg for 3/3/4 as it was cheaper.

I don't care about a marginal gain in effectiveness for meriting, as I don't merit anymore.

It's not just for meriting though. It's for Salvage, Einherjar, Limbus, Dynamis, any event you play warrior on. In fact, in a lot of these events, the cooldown reduction on Bergressor becomes even worse due to situations that you wouldn't use it right as it came off cooldown (porting up a floor, having to run somewhere, ever having to stop pulls for any reason at all).

[Max™]

I don't do much on War anymore, so all the possible arguments against my 3/3/4 can be defeated by two simple facts.

1. 3 Merits for 1 Aggressor is less than 5 merits for 1 DA to get my nice blued out merit list.

2. I know more about my War than you do, and 3/3/4 keeps my timers out of the way while I'm tanking shit, where 2/3/4 left me juggling them til I got annoyed with it. If it was just about maximum efficiency, I'd probably be 5/5 Zerk/DA, or at least have gone 2/3/5.

Course, if I was only concerned about efficiency, I'd be leveling Paladin, since most of what I do on War these days involves voking shit and counting shadows.


For future reference, referring to meriting Warcry while leaving Bergressor at 2/2 is never a good way to get a War to listen to you, it was hard to keep my eyes from glazing over when I saw that.

[Quetz_Jamal]

Personally:

Since I have Ridill:
4/4/2 Zerk/Agg/DA (I was 5/5 Zerk/Agg until the 2-hand update, at which point I started using GA a great deal more).

If I didn't but had the rest of my gearset:
5/0/5

Most people settle on a compromise between the extremes of 2/2/5 or 3/3/4 respectively. I'm a proponent of if you're going for a specific build, you need to maximize the build.

This is highly dependent on what you use your WAR for. Just meriting, especially if its on birds a majority of the time with GA then the 5/0/5 will do quite a bit for you. If you're like me and tend to focus primarily on lizards as well as use the WAR for more then just meriting, the aggressor merits hold more value.

[FailureMidgard]

I don't do much on War anymore, so all the possible arguments against my 3/3/4 can be defeated by two simple facts.

1. 3 Merits for 1 Aggressor is less than 5 merits for 1 DA to get my nice blued out merit list.

2. I know more about my War than you do, and 3/3/4 keeps my timers out of the way while I'm tanking shit, where 2/3/4 left me juggling them til I got annoyed with it. If it was just about maximum efficiency, I'd probably be 5/5 Zerk/DA, or at least have gone 2/3/5.


For future reference, referring to meriting Warcry while leaving Bergressor at 2/2 is never a good way to get Wars to listen to you, it was hard to keep my eyes from glazing over when I saw that.

From your specific position of being 2/3/4, it was less merits to go to 3/3/4, sure, but once again, 2/2/5 keeps the timers the same, and your knowledge of war has nothing to do with this. I don't feel like doing the math, but it's not just convenience to keep them the same, it is higher damage to use 2 abilities that have their stats multiplied in some fashion together, rather than apart (it's better to hit more attacks, while having an attack boost, than to hit more attacks sometimes, and hit harder other times), but that's common sense.

In the end though, your reasons for 3/3/4 are laziness and not using the job much (the 2nd being a better reason than the first). My only points, which remain true are:

1. 2/2/5 is higher damage in virtually every situation than 3/3/4, and takes 1 less merit point on top of that.
2. I only said to toss a merit in warcry because people have a silly obsession with making sure they went 10/10 on their merits, and are apparently willing to sacrifice damage to this goal. Putting 1 in warcry and making people realize 2/2 in Bergressor keeps their timers the same still, would up their damage.

Edit:
Also, "I know more about WAR than you" is a pretty stupid argument when I'm merely arguing about math, and my suggestion kept your timers the same. If I suggested 2/3/5 as the only possibility, you can play that card to say it's bad to have the timer separate, but that isn't what I said at all.

2/2/5 > 3/3/4
Logically, that means:
2/3/5 > 3/3/4; 3/2/5 > 3/3/4; 1/2/2/5 > 3/3/4 are all true.

[Dathus]

Bugard +1 and Dark Grip = all you need.

Why just those two? Does the bugard +1/Raptor Strap+1 out-class the others during Enfeebs and Nukes that much?

[Max™]

I know more about MY war than you do.

I know what I use it for, and that most of the time when I am using Bergressor these days, it is a time when I want both of them up now.

I got very irritated by the timers sliding more and more out of sync when I was 2/3/4, which made me decide against 2/3/5 finally.

Not having to go back and make sure aggressor is cooled down finally when trying to keep shadows up with shitty War eva > a couple % efficiency on a parser.

[FailureMidgard]

I know more about MY war than you do.

I know what I use it for, and that most of the time when I am using Bergressor these days, it is a time when I want both of them up now.

I got very irritated by the timers sliding more and more out of sync when I was 2/3/4, which made me decide against 2/3/5 finally.

Not having to go back and make sure aggressor is cooled down finally when trying to keep shadows up with shitty War eva > a couple % efficiency on a parser.

Why do you completely ignore the existence of 2/2/5 in every post you make? Yea, you want them both up, I accepted that fact before you ever posted in reply to me, it's why I suggested 2/2/5 or 1/2/2/5.
If you don't like 2/3/5, fine, but the only reason to use 3/3/4 for YOUR war was not wanting to merit more (or laziness), which is fine, but it is still an inferior merit layout to 2/2/5.

[Callisto]

Why just those two? Does the bugard +1/Raptor Strap+1 out-class the others during Enfeebs and Nukes that much?

No, I'm just used to being at the bare minimum 64/70 on RDM it's more that none of the alternatives will make any sort of noticeable difference to be worth the inventory space of carrying around several elemental grips, when there's other more important shit you could be using that space on.

[Natara]

Personally:

Since I have Ridill:
4/4/2 Zerk/Agg/DA (I was 5/5 Zerk/Agg until the 2-hand update, at which point I started using GA a great deal more).

If I didn't but had the rest of my gearset:
5/0/5

You mean 0/5/5 with Aggressor being 5 and DA 5, right?...

I agree with most of you here though, about keeping the timer of Berserk + Aggressor the same...

Another question, how does DA and Ridill work together? This is what I found on BG

"As Ridill is currently believed to function, where single hit Ridill swings can double attack and where triple attack swings will double attack instead if the double attack job trait kicks in, double attack will still be a beneficial stat for a Ridill user, although not as beneficial as it is to 1-hit weapons. Example: With 19% double attack, Ridill will have a 24.3 : 59.5 : 16.2 ratio of single:double:triple hits, or around 1.92 hits per round. When coupled with a single hit mainhand weapon, this may lead to double attack still being a good choice, depending on other options available. Assuming roughly 30 : 50 : 20 single/double/triple attack rate distribution, averaging ~1.9 attacks per round. "

Sounds almost like we should not merit DA if we have Ridill since it's changing triple attack to double attack...lol...

Oh well, we are using GA most of the time now I guess... ;x

[Quetz_Jamal]

You mean 0/5/5 with Aggressor being 5 and DA 5, right?...

I agree with most of you here though, about keeping the timer of Berserk + Aggressor the same...

Another question, how does DA and Ridill work together? This is what I found on BG

"As Ridill is currently believed to function, where single hit Ridill swings can double attack and where triple attack swings will double attack instead if the double attack job trait kicks in, double attack will still be a beneficial stat for a Ridill user, although not as beneficial as it is to 1-hit weapons. Example: With 19% double attack, Ridill will have a 24.3 : 59.5 : 16.2 ratio of single:double:triple hits, or around 1.92 hits per round. When coupled with a single hit mainhand weapon, this may lead to double attack still being a good choice, depending on other options available. Assuming roughly 30 : 50 : 20 single/double/triple attack rate distribution, averaging ~1.9 attacks per round. "

Sounds almost like we should not merit DA if we have Ridill since it's changing triple attack to double attack...lol...

Oh well, we are using GA most of the time now I guess... ;x

If I didn't have Ridill I'd be going 5 zerk 5 DA 0 Agg...the acc is rarely an issue, and where it would be for me (ie where other 2-handers are having acc problems) the support jobs would be placing a madrigal. At 299 skill and access to both haidate and ebody a well-geared WAR will be the job with the least accuracy worries even before aggressor is added into the mix.

I'd like to parse accuracy differences at different camps to solidify the claims with agg up vs agg down accuracy differences with my gearset however.

And yea, the DA merits while using Ridill are primarily for WS and mainhand weap :D

[Thorny]

No, I'm just used to being at the bare minimum 64/70 on RDM it's more that none of the alternatives will make any sort of noticeable difference to be worth the inventory space of carrying around several elemental grips, when there's other more important shit you could be using that space on.

I'd argue against the dark grip even, it only effects sleep and dark magic.. you can hit m.acc cap on most/all sleepable mobs without it and maybe it's just me but I very rarely use dark magic as it requires subbing something other than WHM or NIN(if you rdm/sch frequently on aspirable mobs it could be worth the slot, otherwise it's not imo).

[Alathar]

I did a quick search but didn't find anything. For RNG specifically, what's better, axe grip or brave grip?

Axe grip: STR +3 HP +10
Brave grip: enhances critical hit damage (apparently +10%)

[Dathus]

No, I'm just used to being at the bare minimum 64/70 on RDM it's more that none of the alternatives will make any sort of noticeable difference to be worth the inventory space of carrying around several elemental grips, when there's other more important shit you could be using that space on.

With the grips I sit at the same as you, and that's without meds. Which of the grips would you say are manditory? I'm thinking keep Ice/Wind for Bind/Grav/Silence. And Dark because...It's Dark

[Callisto]

With the grips I sit at the same as you, and that's without meds. Which of the grips would you say are manditory? I'm thinking keep Ice/Wind for Bind/Grav/Silence. And Dark because...It's Dark

Like Thorny said, even Dark Grip is pretty iffy, I use it mostly for the extra 10 MP when resting to full(incidentally @ Thorny, I do use Dark Magic extremely often as RDM, that is a large reason as well)...aside from that really the only 'mandatory' grip is Bugard +1. Whether an elemental grip will add any more macc than the INT/MND is kinda up for grabs at the moment, which is why I prefer my inventory space.

[Callisto]

I did a quick search but didn't find anything. For RNG specifically, what's better, axe grip or brave grip?

Axe grip: STR +3 HP +10
Brave grip: enhances critical hit damage (apparently +10%)

Pretty sure Axe Grip is going to win out there unless you have a rather abnormally high Crit rate.

And a Q: I'm still a bit off(52 WAR atm) but I have an Amemet +1 and a NQ Cerb, which would be better to use at 75?