Whats better?

[Shinryuu]

Is a Smilodon Mantle +1 worth picking up for Steel Cyclone vs. Amemet+1?

Depends, if SC has such a sick attack buff as Gekko does it might be (on a lot of stuff).

[Killkenny]

You forget though, focus is 30 acc and will be up 2/5 minutes. Provided you're AT LEAST at 80% acc with destroyers, then hade's acc is now only an advantage 60% of the time as opposed to all the time (including ws as well), while the crits will be active regardless of focus.
Then you have -3 delay, for w/e that is worth.

Add in the fact that a good thf will have capped Feint which guarentees capped acc 1/4 of the time.

[pchan]

Adressing Pchan's last post

Spoiler: show

Using dmt/hit and dmg/crit values from a random parse of mine

66.44 Melee average 126.08 crit average

80% acc vs 83.5% acc

1000 swings from both h2h, I'll give it a 5% marg of error in case u don't hit focus EXACTLY when the timer is up, so we'll call it 65% of the time 80 vs 83.5% and 35% of the time 95 vs 95


650 swings x 83.5% acc = 542.75 landed hits
650 swings x 80% acc = 520 landed hits

Focus up
350 swings x 95% acc = 332.5 landed hits

Hades: 875.25 landed hits
Destroyers: 852.5 landed hits

Let's say my crit rate is a solid 15% (This helping hades since crits have diminishing returns)

Hades: 875.25 landed hits x 15% crit rate = 131.2875 crits, 743.9625 regular hits.

Destroyers: 852.5 landed hits x 21% crit rate = 179.025 crits, 673.475 non crits

Using my crit vs non crit averages from my parse

Hades:
(743.9625 x 66.44) + (131.2875 x 126.08) = 65,981.5965 dmg

Destroyers:
(673.475 x 66.44) + (179.025 x 126.08) = 67,317.151 dmg

For mnk, 23 landed hits is going to get you more tp than 1 ws, but not enough for 2. We'll call it a 1k asuran

Destroyers: 67,317.151 dmg
Hades: 66,981.56965 Dmg

Bring back the 5% margain of error provided you DO use focus every time it's up, start with a lower base crit rate, or start with higher% acc, and destroyers are a shoe in to win.

Edited a word into my final conclusion that should have been there before.

Everything was fine until the part about the ws damage. I think we both know how destroyers are better while focus or outside focus as far as melee damage only is concerned. Now what about the increased WS damage (both in number of WS and actual damage and other minor factors like like more KA, DA) with Hades Sainti 3/5 of the time and equal damage as destroyers 2/5 of the time ?

[ArchDizzle]

Searched but didn't see the answer, although I am sure it's been asked before.

Sam merits @ bird camp how does love halberd fair?(Virtue stones aren't an issue) Or should I stick with Engetsuto?

[Cream Soda]

The minor factors such as Kicks and DA procs are already factored in. We're talking about 1000 total swings, not a number of attack rounds. with a dmg/hit average that includes all the kicks I did in that parse.

As for the ws dmg, being that it is generally 25-33% dmg leaving 66-75% melee dmg, I'd rather boost my melee damage than my WS dmg.

Then, looking at the actual ws dmg itself. From 80% on my build on the left (swapping merm for minuet earring), I gain +10+3+1+3 acc going to my acc ws build (BB to life belt, faith torque to gorget, usu to hissho, brutal to diabolos'), which is 17 acc, 7.5% hitrate. So, for ws we now have 87.5 vs 91% hitrate which will be less of a difference than 80 vs 83.5% and while I'm no expert in calculating ws dmg, I'm sure it wouldn't be enough to overcome the difference.

Also, you have to keep in mind the scenario I gave HEAVILY favors hades with the acc low enough to where it if it was too much lower, you'd want to be using pizza instead of meat, the VERY generous base crit rate, which favors hades to destroyers considering crits decreasing returns.

Increase the acc and/or lower the base crit rate, and it will be an even larger difference in melee dmg, which I don't think the ws dmg would make up for. For example, my base acc on lv 82 colibri is 85% and just under 90 for lv 81 colibri in my gear and my crit rate with destroyers most certainly is not 21%.

[Cream Soda]

Searched but didn't see the answer, although I am sure it's been asked before.

Sam merits @ bird camp how does love halberd fair?(Virtue stones aren't an issue) Or should I stick with Engetsuto?

I don't have one myself, but I've heard of Love doing quite well at bird camp. I'd get one for myself, but losing 5 acc from tomoe and 4-5 acc from black tathlum hurt my eating meat and not need madrigal at bird camp.

[ArchDizzle]

I don't have one myself, but I've heard of Love doing quite well at bird camp. I'd get one for myself, but losing 5 acc from tomoe and 4-5 acc from black tathlum hurt my eating meat and not need madrigal at bird camp.

Good point, to add to the question then here is the TP set that I would be using with Love.

2 pole merits

Love/???/Virtue Stones
Aces/Pchram/Hollow/???
Hauby+1/dusk/Rajas/Snipers+1
ChuChu/Swift/BHaiate/fuma???(no usk)

[Cream Soda]

Well with capped pole merits

Tomoe/empty/empty/Black Tathlum
Usukane/Amulet/Brutal/Minuet
Haub+1/Usukane/Rajas/Toreador's
Amemet+1/Vbelt/Haidate/Usukane

I get like 83-85% on G colibri pre hasso and go up to about 88-90% for ws.

In your case, you'll probably be using crab sushi or getting a madrigal so I would try out the love and see how it goes. The only prob i can see with it is you're getting feather tickled so much that you'd be ws'ing the same rate anyways.

[ArchDizzle]

Thanks, I will check it out and see how it does.

[pchan]

The minor factors such as Kicks and DA procs are already factored in. We're talking about 1000 total swings, not a number of attack rounds. with a dmg/hit average that includes all the kicks I did in that parse.

As for the ws dmg, being that it is generally 25-33% dmg leaving 66-75% melee dmg, I'd rather boost my melee damage than my WS dmg.

Then, looking at the actual ws dmg itself. From 80% on my build on the left (swapping merm for minuet earring), I gain +10+3+1+3 acc going to my acc ws build (BB to life belt, faith torque to gorget, usu to hissho, brutal to diabolos'), which is 17 acc, 7.5% hitrate. So, for ws we now have 87.5 vs 91% hitrate which will be less of a difference than 80 vs 83.5% and while I'm no expert in calculating ws dmg, I'm sure it wouldn't be enough to overcome the difference.

Also, you have to keep in mind the scenario I gave HEAVILY favors hades with the acc low enough to where it if it was too much lower, you'd want to be using pizza instead of meat, the VERY generous base crit rate, which favors hades to destroyers considering crits decreasing returns.

Increase the acc and/or lower the base crit rate, and it will be an even larger difference in melee dmg, which I don't think the ws dmg would make up for. For example, my base acc on lv 82 colibri is 85% and just under 90 for lv 81 colibri in my gear and my crit rate with destroyers most certainly is not 21%.

I agree that there are too many parameters to both melee hits and ws damage to clearly explain the benefit of both weapon, on the top of my head :

delay, Melee store tp, Melee acc, crit %, crit ratio, DA rate, KA rate, WS store tp, WS acc, base dmg ..

So all you can do with math is simplify at extremes .. And a good way to handle Ws dmg is 10x normal damage x acc%, works like a charm for me unless acc is really shit (hi2u arrapago boss w/o hands).

[Mugekuge]

Perdu versus Rampager now.

Say you have 87 STR in TP (72 base, Haub+1, Minuet earring, Forager's, Rajas). Bri, mobs that have 67 VIT, will skew the comparison in favor of Rampager, since Perdu will gain percentually less DMG. Now, you have 20 dSTR, meaning you gain 5 extra DMG.

Perdu: 101 DMG. Rampager: 92 DMG. Going from a blank D92 weapon, the increases of both are:
Perdu: (101-92)/92*100=9,78% increase. Note, this will be a bit less for WS, since secondary modifiers increase DMG, and you'll have more STR, also. Getting to that.

Rampager increase from a blank D92 weapon:
(pDIF+1 - pDIF)/pDIF * 0.06 * 100
For a pDIF of 2.0 (fairly likely): a 3% increase in both TP and WS damage (crits can proc on every WS hit and yield the same increase in damage for TP as for WS, considering RR doesn't increase pDIF)
For a pDIF of 1.5 (sometimes): a 4% increase in both TP and WS damage
For a pDIF of 1.0 (meh): a 6% increase!
For a pDIF of 0.5, where a crit triples your damage: a 12% increase. But you need to uninstall the game if you have such a low pDIF on a GAX WAR75.

As for WS and Perdu's increase:
Say +39 STR in WS for a total of 111 STR.
dSTR of 44, so +11 DMG from fSTR. WS mods add .35*111=38 DMG
Perdu:145 DMG Blank Rampager: 136 DMG
Perdu's increase: 6.62% increase in WS damage.

Say a WAR has a 50/50 TP/WS ratio, Perdu's total increase is roughly 8.2%. For rampager to have that, you'd need a pDIF of .73, or roughly 27% less attack than a mob has defense.

As far as spikes and consistency goes: since Perdu is the higher D weapon, its lowest weaponskills (no crits) will be higher than Rampager's, and its highest weaponskills (full crits) will be higher than Rampager's, too. Let's assume that a chain breaks when all three DD hit a very low WS twice and then some. With a Perdu, there's a small chance you're still keeping chain, as its low is higher than Rampager's low.

I don't understand how someone who's spent 6,000+ posts worth of time on the most well-informed FFXI forum still uses a rampager.

Because he is eyeballing his info with rampager, i haven't seen 1 parse of him still proving he avg 1.1k.

This was against a Bravura war, he did 1080 avg against my 1059 avg perdu/pole (this is an old parse i didnt have ebody at that time). Double march/minuets, war/sam x2, no dia and we didnt full time hasso, we basically have the same gear except for weapons, he didnt have a 6hit (he has now aurum body, both were using hauby+1 at that time)

SavedParse--27_03_2009--1222

[Max™]

Didn't do assaults when spamming them was more popular, done random shit and gotten almost past Corporal now, Nyzul spam has helped that some, but I'm still very far from a Perdu Voulge.

Byakko's vs Rampager is way easier, and your math doesn't line up with other math I've seen which says they should be a fuck ton closer than 8.2% vs 4% as you're implying.


I'll be bitching at my friend to get me his parse info of Perdu vs Rampager, since he just broke a Rampager recently due to his crit-whore obsession lately.

I wasn't eyeballing the info, I was told in several parties by various people parsing that I was averaging that high on WS, as I'm on ps2 I can only take their word for it, and ask for people with both weapons to compare for me.

Also: jesus christ, I have 6k+ posts, Post Fu wut?

[Killkenny]

I wasn't eyeballing the info, I was told in several parties by various people parsing that I was averaging that high on WS, as I'm on ps2 I can only take their word for it, and ask for people with both weapons to compare for me.

You were told is about as useful as eyeballing, have someone send you a parse so you can back some of it up. If you are using Rampager because your assault rank is too low for Perdu thats fine, just stop acting as if Rampager has any use.

[Cream Soda]

just stop acting as if Rampager has any use.

I find it to be extremely useful for rampage

[Yugl]

You were told is about as useful as eyeballing, have someone send you a parse so you can back some of it up. If you are using Rampager because your assault rank is too low for Perdu thats fine, just stop acting as if Rampager has any use.

They said that he parsed around that much damage on average. Why would they want to lie about that?

[Max™]

Repeatedly I had people volunteer the info to me "man, wtf are you eating dude? You're averaging 1126 WS", etc, etc.

That assumption of 50/50 Melee/WS skews it btw, with a 6 hit build and meditate I don't think it works out that way, and I've been bitching at someone who has both to send me a comparison parse of both.

[FailureMidgard]

You were told is about as useful as eyeballing, have someone send you a parse so you can back some of it up. If you are using Rampager because your assault rank is too low for Perdu thats fine, just stop acting as if Rampager has any use.

While having proof is a useful thing, in general, when you make some sort of outrageous claim, do you really think him saying 1100 average is an outrageous claim? I dunno, the one person who in this thread said "i haven't seen 1 parse of him still proving he avg 1.1k." then posted a parse where he averaged 1.08k...I mean, we're talking about a 1.8% margin of error there, and god forbid he said 1100, rounding by 20 points.

Anyway, so many external factors matter here also (what buffs [including bard's gear/merits], what debuffs, average colibri level for said party [45 81s + 55 82s vs 55 81s and 45 82s], how close critrate and pDIF calcs are to average, etc) can make the difference of 1.8% dmg, that if you see a 1080 and they claim an 1100, you are honestly as dumb as Gaea to try to dispute that.

[Max™]

If I was popping up after seeing parses with Perdu averaging 950~1050, and saying "ZOMG, THIS GUIZ SAYD I PARSE 1400 AVG DMG CUZ OF RAMPAGER" then yeah, call me out on it.

I've tried to get the parses sent to me, I had one floating around in my old email account from the last time this came up, but can't find it.

[Shinryuu]

1080 sounds fairly reasonable but that doesn't mean Perdu wouldn't do better. Fun fact: I didn't even take the +attack and +accuracy into effect.

[Max™]

You also didn't take into account what 6% Crit rate does during WS, nor a proper Melee/WS damage split.

As I recall you take the chance of not getting a crit x hits, then swap it back around to get your WS crit rate, which ends up being like 13% melee rate > 29%~ WS rate vs 19% melee rate > 36% WS rate or some shit.