Whats better?

[Feedmenow]

Warrior's Cuisses or Aurum cuisses for Steel Cyclone?

I'm not sure if it's REALLY an upgrade to get Aurum, but it would let me store the whole Warrior's Armor set without any regrets

[_chuchu]

Warrior's Cuisses or Aurum cuisses for Steel Cyclone?

I'm not sure if it's REALLY an upgrade to get Aurum, but it would let me store the whole Warrior's Armor set without any regrets

Warrior's cuisses

[Max™]

1 Str 4 Att 1 DA
vs
4 Vit 7 Acc

4 Vit will almost always add 2~ to WS mods, 1 Str will sometimes add 1 to WS mods and 1 to fStr. If fStr is capped, Vit wins far and away, it's basically a wash.

4 Att vs 7 Acc, Steel Cyclone has something like a +50% pDif boost apparently, and while the main hit has an inherent acc boost, the doubles do not. I'd go for the Acc especially considering how little acc my SC build had, 10~ gorget, 10 nbody, 18 Dex nhead/nfeet/rajas/warwolf, -6 Dex alky's. I'd definitely trade 4 att and 1 DA for 7 acc.

Use Aurum and store your af2.

[Shinryuu]

and while the main hit has an inherent acc boost, the doubles do not.

Prove it. DA'd hits get modified equally for all weaponskills. It's not logical to assume that the 1-hit WS specials (pDIF/hitrate boosts) don't apply to DA'd procs. Could do a thousand Gekkos with blind potions and the stuff to get a 50% hitrate, 95% WS ACC, and Fighter's roll, and then count the DA'd hits and see if it's 95% for DA too.

[Max™]

Fair enough, I can't prove it.

I can recall that over the years I've had Steel Cyclone and Warrior's Charge (and especially since 5 minute WC), the number of 1% returns after using WC vs the normal 16% returns suggests that there is a different calculation for DA accuracy.

Since DA's are known to have different fTP calculations, the numbers for my doubled Steels don't suggest the DA gets the pDif boost that the first hit does, and you don't see reports of constantly doubled WSes as you would if every DA had a 95%~ chance to land, you can probably deduce something from this.

Go talk to any Warrior, or anyone who's been in an LS with one, that regularly uses Steel Cyclone and WC. You'll find that "fuck, missed my double!" is far more common a complaint than "fuck, 1% return!"

Just from the last year or so when I spamraped sky with my martial bhuj, riding a gleeful wave of orgasmic destrution post-2h update, I am absolutely certain that I didn't land 9 out of 10 of my WC Steel Cyclone hits, and would place the 1% returns around 1 in 10.

One of these things is not like the other, one of these things suggests DA's during WSes follow the normal accuracy rules which all hits other than the first have been shown to follow.

[Shinryuu]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519D2XDWPNL.jpg

DA has the whole psychological factor to it, especially WC. DA'd hits simply have an fTP of 1.0, just like additional hits after the first one for any multihit WS. Multihit additionals are modified the same way the first hit is.

[Killkenny]

Go talk to any Warrior, or anyone who's been in an LS with one, that regularly uses Steel Cyclone and WC. You'll find that "fuck, missed my double!" is far more common a complaint than "fuck, 1% return!

Your post is now entirely null and void because of this.

[Max™]

You don't think people would have noticed and commented on doubled WSes occuring at the same rate as capped accuracy and DA rate would provide?

I mean seriously, you can say "oh it's just eyeballing" all you want, but I actively test and tweak every aspect of my WS gear every time I use it.

I do not get 21*.95 landed doubles per 100 WSes, I do not miraculously land the vast majority of my WC doubles.

My WS gear is definitely uncapped on accuracy, Rukenshin pointed this out to me a year or two ago?

Mbhuj/Pole/_/Bomb core
Nhead/Snow/Brutal/Bushi
Nbody/Alky's/Flame/Rajas
Smilo +1/Warwolf/4th Schoss/Nfeet

+20~ Accuracy, 68~70 (/Sam~/Thf) +12 Dex, 292 Great Axe.

The inherent first hit acc boost is why I don't give a shit about accuracy so much, because I still land over 9/10 I fire off.

I don't land 9/10 doubles every 5 minutes when I fire WC, I'd say it's closer to 6~7/10 from personal experience on sky gods/aura stats/groundskeepers/kirin/dyna mobs/jailers/nyzul bosses/merit mobs, which is about the sort of accuracy one would expect with that sort of gear/no aggressor.

I can happily do some testing when I get a chance and record more exact sets of data, but I'd say the utter lack of ANY anecdotal or parsed data implying DA's get the full first hit treatment makes it illogical to assume they do, to say the least.

[Killkenny]

I can happily do some testing when I get a chance and record more exact sets of data, but I'd say the utter lack of ANY anecdotal or parsed data implying DA's get the full first hit treatment makes it illogical to assume they do, to say the least.

I haven't seen anyone defend the arguement that DAs do recieve an accuracy bonus, at the same time you are trying to prove something without providing anything more than "I have noticed" or "In my experience".

Its fine that you don't think DAs get an accuracy boost (there is a good chance they don't), just don't post it as if it were a fact without having tested it.

[Max™]

Did I say it was a fact?

I actually started my ranting with "Fair enough, I can't prove it."

Every time I hit my WS macro, I'm tallying results in my head, tweaking and tuning every little thing. I don't have a list of tally marks on a piece of paper I can take a digicam shot of and post here, but you really think I wouldn't have popped up and mentioned absurdly high DA accuracy?

"Hay guiz, anyone else noticed that they always land the doubles in their Warrior's Charge WSes?"

Nevermind using Ground Strike as I am rather fond of doing, which pushes my accuracy even further from capped, and seeing roughly the same results.

Simply looking at the damage calculations, you can see that something funny is going on with the first hit of Gekko/Steel/Gstrike/etc in the pDif, this led to the pDif boost discovery.

Applying the pDif boost to the doubled hits, I wouldn't hit a soft cap of 2100~2300 with Steel, yet the doubles follow a Base Dmg + fStr + WS mod x pDif x 1.0 fTp just as predicted.

Against the 1.0 fTp, and lack of absurdly high pDif boost type damage returns on doubles, it is ridiculous to assume they DO share the first hit accuracy boost, and oh shit, look at that, anecdotal evidence suggests they don't.

[Killkenny]

Every time I hit my WS macro, I'm tallying results in my head, tweaking and tuning every little thing.

This is Final Fantasy 11, not a forumla 1 engine. All you ever post is what you have noticed, never what you have parsed.

You should know by now your anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing at all, thing this was all programmed by SE.

[Max™]

Believe it or not, I've been right about this shit once or twice ya know.

I remember noticing that Smilo +1 gave me better SC results, posted about it, got shot down because I can't parse shit and obviously 15 Attack will do better than 2~3 Str.

Y/G/K testing shows that 15 Att isn't as valuable for some WSes as previously thought.

I noticed more consistent TP returns with my snow gorget, and estimated it to be around the same acc as a PCC for all hits.

Fast Blade testing showed that a gorget is basically a PCC +1.

I commented on weirdly high WS accuracy with ridiculously low amounts of acc in my WS gear, it got dismissed, and oh shit look at that, Y/G/K testing showed a silly first hit Acc boost.

I'm saying now that DA's don't get the first hit acc boost for some reason, could I just be guessing, or could I actually pay attention to shit enough to know what the fuck I'm talking about?

Only time will tell.

[Killkenny]

Did you invent the wheel also?

[Therin]

I'm finally considering the swap from Sattva to Rajas after like three years. I've also seen some math regarding Sword Strap and its effectiveness assuming it doesn't kill your 6-hit build, so I decided to come here to pose the following two questions.

Which gear set is better in the following cases:

For Perdu Sickle, 501 Delay (Guillotine), 17% Gear Haste

Perdu Sickle
Sword Strap
Askar Korazin
Rajas Ring
Brutal Earring

vs.

Perdu Sickle
Pole Grip
Askar Korazin
Rajas Ring
Brutal Earring

For Apocalypse/Bec de Faucon, 528 delay (Catastrophe), 25% Gear Haste (with Aftermath)

Apocalypse/Bec de Faucon
Sword Strap
Askar Korazin
Rajas Ring
Brutal Earring

vs.

Apocalypse/Bec de Faucon
Pole Grip
Askar Korazin
Rajas Ring
Brutal Earring

Notice that a 6-hit build is retained in each situation, assuming Guillotine fully connects (which is often a faulty assumption but for the sake of optimization in this situation let's assume it's valid).

For the sake of simplifying the math, the adjusted delay is 485.97 (if it's not truncated, I'm not actually sure) for Perdu Sickle and 512.16 for Apocalypse/Bec de Faucon.

[Shinryuu]

Did you invent the wheel also?

Oh god, lol'd.

Therin: Pole grip. Did the explanation way back, hurt my head. Sword strap, in a party of 3 melee, gives a than a 33% chance that the fight will end 1% faster, or: .33% increase, long run. Pole grip gives a 33% chance that fight will end 2% faster. However, if you parse against yourself in a vacuum, sword strap will win. Warning: vacuum monsters give shitty exp and kinda... suck.

[Yugl]

Believe it or not, I've been right about this shit once or twice ya know.

I remember noticing that Smilo +1 gave me better SC results, posted about it, got shot down because I can't parse shit and obviously 15 Attack will do better than 2~3 Str.

Y/G/K testing shows that 15 Att isn't as valuable for some WSes as previously thought.

I noticed more consistent TP returns with my snow gorget, and estimated it to be around the same acc as a PCC for all hits.

Fast Blade testing showed that a gorget is basically a PCC +1.

I commented on weirdly high WS accuracy with ridiculously low amounts of acc in my WS gear, it got dismissed, and oh shit look at that, Y/G/K testing showed a silly first hit Acc boost.

I'm saying now that DA's don't get the first hit acc boost for some reason, could I just be guessing, or could I actually pay attention to shit enough to know what the fuck I'm talking about?

Only time will tell.

That's nice, but what about the other stuff you made speculations on that weren't correct?

Side note: Does the ACC of DA WS matter? I personally don't gear up in anticipation of a DA. Warrior's Charge would be the only exception.

Edit: Shinryuu you don't play in a dirt devil?!

[Therin]

Oh god, lol'd.

Therin: Pole grip. Did the explanation way back, hurt my head. Sword strap, in a party of 3 melee, gives a than a 33% chance that the fight will end 1% faster, or: .33% increase, long run. Pole grip gives a 33% chance that fight will end 2% faster. However, if you parse against yourself in a vacuum, sword strap will win. Warning: vacuum monsters give shitty exp and kinda... suck.

Seems like that only holds true in a merit party. What about in every other situation?

I rarely use DRK in merits anyway (typically use WAR or DRG, depending on the camp).

[Indalecia]

I rarely use DRK in merits anyway (typically use WAR or DRG, depending on the camp).

Pussy

[Jeryhn]

Pussy

Hey now, let's be fair.

DRKs don't exactly have polearm skill, kekeke.

[Indalecia]

I do just fine, tyvm