Whats better?

[Terenyx]

Body: Relic > Morrigans (BLU's ACC is terrible)

I guess I'll have to try that (I do have both), you honestly think the
Acc+10 > Acc+5/Atk+5/STR+8 (both bodies have refresh and I see your point with that)?

Also, the Rajas Ring will be conceded, but I am WHM, BLM and soon to be RDM75, so I am not going to be giving up the Tamas Ring. So that's why I have the flame ring balanced with the iota for WS/Spells.

And based on your responses, I am seeing that the Haste > all measure is being employed, so ok.

All in all, I'll start doing more ENMs and Farming b/c I need to get at least 5-7M based on these definitions, thanks for your time.

[mdkuser]

(skadi legs)

Well, they're more Acc, 1% less haste, and the Stp is enough to actually make a worthwhile change in the TP speed for Thf as I recall, so that is one of the cases where Homam is beaten actually. Course, this is for Blu who has Homam pants already.

there is a common misconception as to why skadi legs are better than homam leg. Technically its not better, because losing 1% haste is hardly worth trading for 1 acc 4 attack ( it will make up for melee dmg but not ws dmg). The good thing about skadi feet is that it frees you from raja's ring, giving you stp on legs ( if you need the stp... if you dont need it, homam is better), thus enabling double HQ snipers. For my dagger combo ( X's+BD) I need rajas or skadi to get 5+ tp/hit.

So in reality the gear you compare is skadi leg+HQ sniper v.s homam legs+rajas. The former wins.

[FailureMidgard]

Soboro/ Yoichi SAM TP pre Usu Body - Platinum Grip +1 or Axe Grip?

Will be using Haub +1 for tp until Usu Body, so no 6-Hit with Sword Strap until the Turtle puts out

Really need to see a parse to give a definite answer....what % of dmg is coming from WS, and what % from TP phase? Seems like you'd be fSTR capped on a Soboro, so Axe is gonna be WS only, there's a much better chance the accuracy may help.

[Max™]

there is a common misconception as to why skadi legs are better than homam leg. Technically its not better, because losing 1% haste is hardly worth trading for 1 acc 4 attack ( it will make up for melee dmg but not ws dmg). The good thing about skadi feet is that it frees you from raja's ring, giving you stp on legs ( if you need the stp... if you dont need it, homam is better), thus enabling double HQ snipers. For my dagger combo ( X's+BD) I need rajas or skadi to get 5+ tp/hit.

So in reality the gear you compare is skadi leg+HQ sniper v.s homam legs+rajas. The former wins.

Yar, that's what I was getting at. 10 TP per round makes Thieves happy in their silly looking pants, being able to trade 5 Str 5 Dex and 1% haste for 8 Acc 4 Att basically.

[Drace]

Really need to see a parse to give a definite answer....what % of dmg is coming from WS, and what % from TP phase? Seems like you'd be fSTR capped on a Soboro, so Axe is gonna be WS only, there's a much better chance the accuracy may help.

Still 6 weeks or so from completion so I won't be able to parse anything other than Futato in dynamis until then, but I am leaning toward Platinum +1 or Mythril +1 (2 acc, 2 str) until Usu Body.

Really not sure on the dmg breakdown at this point. The only Yoichi SAM I know on my server rarely if ever merits, and doesn't really utilize Soboro either

[Valyana]

Of course, going to 5 TP/hit is only a 4.8% reduction in hits to 100 TP, so I might take the acc over it anyway...

[TheTaru]

Not necessarily a "What's better?" question but, about how big would the difference in damage between Manoples with -25% delay and Spharai be? (Not counting damage from counters)

[Rikura]

Adding on the question above, how would the -25% delay augmented Manoples compare to Destroyers/Hades Sainti/Shenlong's Baghnahks?

[pchan]

Not necessarily a "What's better?" question but, about how big would the difference in damage between Manoples with -25% delay and Spharai be? (Not counting damage from counters)

First you need to know what is the exact delay. Based on TP return, the only thing certain atm is that for mnk, the delay is between 312 & 335 and for pup, 385-393.

[Shinryuu]

I should probably finally get aorund doing proper Manoples math. Alright, here goes.

Delay of Manoples: (122+300)*.75 = 317
Delay of Destroyers (taking Destroyers, first): 348
Manoples gain 9% attack speed and I don't think you need an extra hit for 100 TP, correct me if I'm wrong. If you do, it's a bit less but not much due to MNK's low WS/TP ratio.

DMG: with 4 fSTR, Manoples gain 3,5% damage over Destroyers during the TP phase, and a little less than that (say, 3%, not going to be far from the truth) during WS.

Loss of 6% crit:
Depends on your pDIF and base crit. Say you have 14% crit or so without Destroyers (merits, 5% base, 5% from DEX). With a level corrected pDIF of say 1.5, a crit does 2.5. Your average pDIF w/o Destroyers is .86*1.5+.14*2.5=1.64. Adding the 6% crit it's .8*1.5+.2*2.5=1.7. This is a 3.6% increase in damage during the TP phase. Multiply that by the TP/WS ratio you're currently parsing and that's the gain of crit. With 70/30, that's 2.5% damage increase. Manoples destroy Destroyers.

By the way doing this makes me realize Wagh Baghnaks beat Destroyers in any likely scenario. The attack offsets the delay loss easily and the accuracy is 2.5% hitrate, which is more than 2.5% total damage done.

[mdkuser]

well the computation vary depending on gear and mobs you fight, obviously, but that's interesting... people will have a hard time accepting that they are better though, just like they never accepted that even NQ hades sainti beat destroyers for uncapped acc.

Btw mnk/nin dmg is more like 60% melee/ 40% ws, and only mnk/not-nin is 70%/30% due to counter attacks. 5% crit bonus from DEX isn't realistic on merits. I got 101 dex only as mithra, with full usu, A.torque cuchu mantle hollow earring... 101 dex puts me at 18% only at birds ( destroyers, so +3% from dex) and 11% at mmj ( hades sainti, so +2% from dex).

[pchan]

Not necessarily a "What's better?" question but, about how big would the difference in damage between Manoples with -25% delay and Spharai be? (Not counting damage from counters)

First you need to know what is the exact delay. Base on TP return, the only thing certain atm is that for mnk, the delay is between 312 & 335 and for pup, 385-393.

Adding on the question above, how would the -25% delay augmented Manoples compare to Destroyers/Hades Sainti/Shenlong's Baghnahks?

If the delay is 316 (exactly -25% but this doesn't match for pup) you are looking at like 12% increase in total damage (melee and ws) from destroyers :

The dps with one fist with manoples (assume 5 ftsr to simplify) is (35+20+5)/(316/60)=11.39 while it is 10.0 with destroyers (so +14%). If you assume 10% base crit%, and that your critical hits average 2x normal hit, then as far as melee damage go :
manoples : 11.39*1.10=12.53
destroyers :10*1.16=11.6
so +8% in melee damage...

Now you got to take into account WS damage. The advantage of +2 dmg during WS a bit lower since you'll get extra damage from modifiers, let's say +14 dmg (with 100 str 70 vit). Also those weapons have the same-ish TP return so you average something like 8 melee rounds (85+ accuracy) up to 100%+ tp, so the total damage for a tp phase is (neglecting kick attacks)

for manoples : 16 punchs, with 60 damage and 10% crit followed by an asuran fists which is 8 x 74 dmg with 0 critical hits : 1648 dmg in 8*316 delay
for destroyers : 16 punchs, with 58 damage and 16% crit ............................................ 8x72 dmg with 0 crit : 1652 dmg in 8*348 delay

=> manoples=39.11 dps while destroyers=35.61dps, so +10%.

[fantasticdan]

hissho hachimaki vs. shura head for penta?

Also same question for rana.

[Max™]

Same answer, Rana is only for SC purposes, so all you care about is landing hits for nonzero damage, Hissho is very VERY sexy.

[FailureMidgard]

Same answer, Rana is only for SC purposes, so all you care about is landing hits for nonzero damage, Hissho is very VERY sexy.

You still care about the damage on Rana...the end goal of the SC is more damage, so getting more damage on Rana is good. Besides, all you need is an ~80% accuracy to have <1% chance of missing all 3.

[Max™]

Isn't the SC effect based on the closer?

Rana > Gekko go?

Oh, you mean in general, yeah, but Rana is pretty shit compared to the toys sam has.

I'd basically just do a Penta type build, Acc/Att, incidental Str where you can.

[FailureMidgard]

Isn't the SC effect based on the closer?

Rana > Gekko go?

Oh, you mean in general, yeah, but Rana is pretty shit compared to the toys sam has.

I'd basically just do a Penta type build, Acc/Att, incidental Str where you can.

Yea, I mean...we're here talking about the differences between small things everywhere else, I don't see why you wouldn't want the best results on Rana as well. And you don't need anywhere near the acc penta needs...but still more acc than Gekko, for sure.

[Max™]

Well, Penta loves attack, so I'd think:

GKT/Pole/_/Tathlum~Tiphia~Smart
Hissho/Gorget/Brutal/Bushi
Hauby(+1)/Bando's~AF+1/Ulth/Rajas
Foragers/Warwolf/Usukane~AF +1/Rutters~Usukane

Swap in Acc hands (AF+1 too)/Acc earring (Fowling/Hollow/Diabolos/Pixie/Augment)/Cuch mantle/leave byakko's on/Potent belt for Penta, what I'd do anyway.

[Ramzii]

Totsukanotsurugi vs Hagun

I know that totsu absolutely wrecks hagun @ 300, but for merit parties when you're spamming TP @ 100% all the time, would 13 base damage outweigh the 100 tp bonus? I'm thinking no, but my DoT is also boosted a bit, I think

[Ultimagi]

Hagun. If you have 300% TP, use Sekkanoki and Hagun is still better.