Whats better?

[Shinryuu]

DEX merits > STR merits

Prove me wrong

[mdkuser]

I dont have DEX merits. str merits.

[Shinryuu]

Oh EW I thought you were hume w/ DEX merits judging by pic. But you're Mithra and /NIN Q_Q

[Miraun]

With 53%/54% haste (march minuet hasso) your delay is going to be 267/262 not 408/403. You're assuming no haste gear here or something. So your math says that at 0% haste and 93.5% acc, askar ( first line) still has less hits and TP gain than turban ( 2nd line). ok.

its the same math as mine actually: N= number of hits in given time, w/o haste. x your accuracy. y your accuracy with askar y=min(x+0.015,0.95). H your total haste w/o head gear. DRG/SAM= 54% haste with turban, 53% with askar ( and march hasso haste).

Nah, my calculation was a measure of delay, so the inverse of hits. 1 hit / x delay.

The 408 and 403 numbers were a measure of 17 versus 18% Haste, which I currently function at:

Thall / Pole / --- / Black
*debate*/love/brutal/assault
Aurum/Homam/rajas/Ulthalam
Foragers/Swift/Homam/Homam


Overall low values of haste, but at that level, it still showed Askar being better than Turban.

Spoiler: show

- Turban give N1=N*x/(1-0.(H+5))

- Askar gives N2=N*y/(1-0.(H+4))

Turban = 100*.935 / (1-(12+5)/100)
Turban = 93.5 / (.83)
Turban = 112.65

Askar = 100*.95 / (1-(12+4)/100)
Askar = 95 / (.84)
Askar = 113.09

For low haste situations with maximum ACC gain, Askar wins. You were right about the higher levels of haste pushing Turban in it's favor, which I did not take into account, but wrong with the asertion of ACC levels in your earlier post.

I also wanted to critique the formula you wrote. Given SE's habit to round down numbers, isn't it rounding down the REDUCTION in delay rather than the truncation of post subtraction delay:

Hasted Delay = Delay-Rounddown(((Haste%/100)*Delay),0)
Nitpicky, but vital in the next step...

I wanted to determine the level of haste where the equation flips in favor of Turban over Askar.

By my delay centric calculation w/ round down SE style calculation:
A2 = Haste Before headgear
Your Calculation Turban
=100*0.935/(1-(A2+5)/100)
Your Calculation Askar
=100*0.95/(1-(A2+4)/100)

My calculation Turban
=(492-ROUNDDOWN(492*(A2+5)/100,0))/0.935
My Calculation Askar
=(492-ROUNDDOWN(492*(A2+4)/100,0))/0.95

By your hits centric calculation, this occurrs at above 33% Haste before Headgear

By my delay calculation, the turban ends up winning at above 34% Haste before headgear.



NOW, these calculations are VERY dependant on high delay 2H users, as I'm sure a lower delay will produce different results. However, your original statements were far too harsh on the zucchetto. It's not a BAD piece. Furthermore, those other factors that you referenced, the +1 damage and +Crit rate MAY push the Zucchetto over the Turban for areas between 33/34 and 45% Haste. But of course, crit potency is dependant on your pDif and dmg potency dependant on your base damage, which is likely a negligable difference for 2Hs.


tl;dr
Dex, STR, and VIT aside, askar is better when you're not past 37/38% haste.


I will try to do some meriting this week to measure my difference in crit rating between turban and zucchetto to try to determine the bonus of +4 Dex.. However, given the AGL+50 Cap of 20%, and the Base of 5% at DEX=AGL, it seems that 4 Dex would yield at least 1% crit rate if anything near linear (1.2% if linear).




Perhaps we should open another thread for just the askar/turban debate? I haven't read too many of the older posts on this thread (just intermittantly), but it seems to be a reoccuring subject of debate.

[Miraun]

And I'm jealous of that augmented spinel ring... that sounds sick.

[Daim]

Nuking for RDM

Goliard feet or Yigit feet?

Rest of setup:
Elemental skill 247
INT +43
MAB +10
M Acc +5

[Shinryuu]

It's a Hollow earring, which is the best secondary ear for melee without a Zilart earring.

[Argettio]

Nuking for RDM

Goliard feet or Yigit feet?

Rest of setup:
Elemental skill 247
INT +43
MAB +10
M Acc +5

Depends on the target.

I would use Yigit for puddings and other low mobs.

But if you are soloing NMs maybe Goliard would be better.

Looking at the MAB, you are using Zenith mitts? Yigit Gages will do more damage with T3 nukes (and add more acc from the INT).

http://www.ffxiah.com/members/?q=item_sets&set_id=26591
(Balrahn's ring swapped for another snow for puddings)
With this I do ~790 Thunder III and ~760 Blizzard III on puddings.

Faaaar from a perfect nuke set up, just made out of stuff I have kicking around for other reasons; but it lands consistently. If I am /SCH I also use Uggalepih Pendant (<50% MP)

[FailureMidgard]

Nah, my calculation was a measure of delay, so the inverse of hits. 1 hit / x delay.

The 408 and 403 numbers were a measure of 17 versus 18% Haste, which I currently function at:

Thall / Pole / --- / Black
*debate*/love/brutal/assault
Aurum/Homam/rajas/Ulthalam
Foragers/Swift/Homam/Homam


Overall low values of haste, but at that level, it still showed Askar being better than Turban.

Spoiler: show

Turban = 100*.935 / (1-(12+5)/100)
Turban = 93.5 / (.83)
Turban = 112.65

Askar = 100*.95 / (1-(12+4)/100)
Askar = 95 / (.84)
Askar = 113.09

For low haste situations with maximum ACC gain, Askar wins. You were right about the higher levels of haste pushing Turban in it's favor, which I did not take into account, but wrong with the asertion of ACC levels in your earlier post.

I also wanted to critique the formula you wrote. Given SE's habit to round down numbers, isn't it rounding down the REDUCTION in delay rather than the truncation of post subtraction delay:

Hasted Delay = Delay-Rounddown(((Haste%/100)*Delay),0)
Nitpicky, but vital in the next step...

I wanted to determine the level of haste where the equation flips in favor of Turban over Askar.

By my delay centric calculation w/ round down SE style calculation:
A2 = Haste Before headgear
Your Calculation Turban
=100*0.935/(1-(A2+5)/100)
Your Calculation Askar
=100*0.95/(1-(A2+4)/100)

My calculation Turban
=(492-ROUNDDOWN(492*(A2+5)/100,0))/0.935
My Calculation Askar
=(492-ROUNDDOWN(492*(A2+4)/100,0))/0.95

By your hits centric calculation, this occurrs at above 33% Haste before Headgear

By my delay calculation, the turban ends up winning at above 34% Haste before headgear.



NOW, these calculations are VERY dependant on high delay 2H users, as I'm sure a lower delay will produce different results. However, your original statements were far too harsh on the zucchetto. It's not a BAD piece. Furthermore, those other factors that you referenced, the +1 damage and +Crit rate MAY push the Zucchetto over the Turban for areas between 33/34 and 45% Haste. But of course, crit potency is dependant on your pDif and dmg potency dependant on your base damage, which is likely a negligable difference for 2Hs.


tl;dr
Dex, STR, and VIT aside, askar is better when you're not past 37/38% haste.


I will try to do some meriting this week to measure my difference in crit rating between turban and zucchetto to try to determine the bonus of +4 Dex.. However, given the AGL+50 Cap of 20%, and the Base of 5% at DEX=AGL, it seems that 4 Dex would yield at least 1% crit rate if anything near linear (1.2% if linear).




Perhaps we should open another thread for just the askar/turban debate? I haven't read too many of the older posts on this thread (just intermittantly), but it seems to be a reoccuring subject of debate.

33 haste? Do you ever seriously have that low? Standard for any non-solo event you care about should be at least haste+1 march (26). In a normal party for anything being TP burned, 2nd march is actually better than a minuet for virtually every melee DD in the game. Maybe on something like JoL, you don't want the 2nd march, but really from my experience, you're dead if you go all out on him anyway.

But under 33 haste, that's unbelievably low.

[Wolfknight]

33 haste? Do you ever seriously have that low? Standard for any non-solo event you care about should be at least haste+1 march (26). In a normal party for anything being TP burned, 2nd march is actually better than a minuet for virtually every melee DD in the game. Maybe on something like JoL, you don't want the 2nd march, but really from my experience, you're dead if you go all out on him anyway.

But under 33 haste, that's unbelievably low.

I wish I lived in world you do where everyone always has a bard for everything they do. I mean tend to get a cor or brd most of the time but not always and when just cor haste amount is much lower.

[Thorny]

I wish I lived in world you do where everyone always has a bard for everything they do. I mean tend to get a cor or brd most of the time but not always and when just cor haste amount is much lower.

BRDs are no longer a rarity, if your linkshell can't manage at least one per DD party kick some dead weight and get a couple more.

[Miraun]

33 haste? Do you ever seriously have that low? Standard for any non-solo event you care about should be at least haste+1 march (26). In a normal party for anything being TP burned, 2nd march is actually better than a minuet for virtually every melee DD in the game. Maybe on something like JoL, you don't want the 2nd march, but really from my experience, you're dead if you go all out on him anyway.

But under 33 haste, that's unbelievably low.

33/34 w/o hat. So don't count the 4-5% you're getting with the hat.

Not saying it's not easilly obtainable. I agree, Hate + either March puts you over it, and you should have that in anything worth a damn... The point of argument I was more drawing to was the ACC implications that were made on the previous posts saying that Askar is only better at 67% or less ACC. And since that argument was proven wrong upfront, I went on to calculate the turning point of effectiveness.

In the event that you're not obtaining BOTH a March AND a Haste, then Askar will function better.

[Wolfknight]

BRDs are no longer a rarity, if your linkshell can't manage at least one per DD party kick some dead weight and get a couple more.

well problem isn't that, more so when doing something like split zones for limbus not each group always get brd.
Or things like Duoing ENMs.

[mdkuser]

haste + hasso alone put you above 40%. The situations you're pointing out are not typical. I mean if you solo your accuracy is going to be caped for example. I aggree that askar will be situationally better , in low haste/ non caped acc, and high haste/low acc ( lurker ). That's it. The DEX impact on crits is supposed to be exponential too. Just random numbers off my parses (birds):

-THF, 90 DEX, ~9%.
-ninja, 120 dex: 27% crit rates ( with senjuinryoko).
-monk, 101 dex 11% ( hades sainti) 17% destroyers.
-sam 109 dex 12.5% critss.

Doesn't seem very linear growth. and crits is just a small part of your melee dmg, which is a small part of your total dmg ( for 2hander).

[Shinryuu]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/...t/DEXcrits.jpg

[Miraun]

haste + hasso alone put you above 40%. The situations you're pointing out are not typical. I mean if you solo your accuracy is going to be caped for example. I aggree that askar will be situationally better , in low haste/ non caped acc, and high haste/low acc ( lurker ). That's it. The DEX impact on crits is supposed to be exponential too. Just random numbers off my parses (birds):

-THF, 90 DEX, ~9%.
-ninja, 120 dex: 27% crit rates ( with senjuinryoko).
-monk, 101 dex 11% ( hades sainti) 17% destroyers.
-sam 109 dex 12.5% critss.

Doesn't seem very linear growth. and crits is just a small part of your melee dmg, which is a small part of your total dmg ( for 2hander).

I've never taken Hasso into account... ever... As a DRG, I rarely, if ever, have the ability to use that JA under normal circumstances.

As far as normally of the situation goes, that's a subjective point of view. My measurements were objective based upon haste, delay, and stats... I've been trying to articulate WHEN one is better than the other, and I think we've determined that a little better. I'm not entering the argument whether or not people SHOULD have that setup, or those buffs active. If I did previously, it was not my intent. I'm here to discuss facts and numbers, not subjective observations.

Regarding your argument on soloing, the defense and VIT come more into play... The effectiveness of DEF and VIT is dependant on what you're fighting, and if you can hit the 600 DEF target number. Again, drawing back to my DRG, I can hit 600 DEF with DRG/BLU, Taco and Cocoon. Achievable thanks to , and dependant upon, the defense from Askar Zucchetto.

While crits may be a small portion of the total damage output, we're debating a fraction of an attack once you reach over 112 attacks. I'd argue the entire debate of Askar versus Turban is a complete micro measurement of effectiveness. The lower your pDif, the more substancial a critical hit will be, the higher, the less substancial. But if you end up stacking on 4 more Dex, and it increases your crit rate by 1%, and each crit increases damage by 100% for 1% of swings, then arguing an additional +.5 swings every 112 swings because of 1% Haste on the hat pails in comparison. Crit rate is relevant, and cannot be shrugged off.

Has anyone figured out the equation to crit rate?


Going off memory, but 90 Dex in my merit setup yielded 11.5% crit rate on birds, 4 merits in crit rate.

[Pro]

WAR question inc.
I've been hardheaded and DWing even after the 2H patch, now I'm considering redoing merits and switching to 2Handed. I don't play as hardcore as I used to, so I'm not 100% familiar with the upgrades 2handed got (more acc/attack from stats I take it?) Anyways I'm looking for a starting point

Relevant Merits:
5 Aggressor
5 Berserk
8 Sword
8 Axe

Current TP (DW):
FFXIGEAR.com

Current WS (Rampage):
FFXIGEAR.com
YES I KNOW ADAMAN MUFFLERS, I got dicked from getting Heca Mitts from last LS because of technicalities with lotting rules and other jobs that can use them...and we hardly did sky so I don't have them. I do have access to Warrior Mufflers +1, and Alky. Braces.

Current TP (2h):
FFXIGEAR.com

Current WS (RR):
FFXIGEAR.com
I realize Alky's are really counter productive with multi hit ws, but like I said no heca mitts...and I hardly used GAxe

_________

As far as merits, I was gonna drop all Axe merits and cap GA...Also, Was gonna go 4DA, 3Agg, 3Ber.

Any tips with Gear and Merits?

Edit: Also I'm a Elvaan M, not a mithra...and have 5STR Merits-

[Yugl]

well problem isn't that, more so when doing something like split zones for limbus not each group always get brd.
Or things like Duoing ENMs.

This entirely. A WAR + RDM can duo SE without needing a damn BRD. In our LS, using a BRD means we miss out on a SCH and BLM. That alone equates to NW + one third of NE. In cases where you intentionally limit members per event, it's stupid to assume optimal build.

[el_tio]

Pro: go 3/3/4 bergressor / DA (good build for those who both DW and 2hand), buy heca abj for 500-600k (prices on my server at least), on RR swap back for Cuchu, waist for warwolf, hands for heca, and voila, you'll be at crit cap on birds at least. On harder mobs use your current build for KJ and profit. Oh, and drop 2 axe and get 6 g.axe merits (if you have free space).

[mdkuser]

This entirely. A WAR + RDM can duo SE without needing a damn BRD. In our LS, using a BRD means we miss out on a SCH and BLM. That alone equates to NW + one third of NE. In cases where you intentionally limit members per event, it's stupid to assume optimal build.

he'll have caped accuracy in limbus so, for what we're argueing... turban {yes, please}.