Whats better?

[Maguile]

W. Turban

[Wolfknight]

Turban.

Yes and No, Don't feel need to make same agrument yet again, it's up to the person to figure their acc and haste for askar vs turban on a 2 hander. Simply saying one or the other all the time is ignorant though, and gimping yourself, unless your fail who always has double march/haste on any job he plays.

And Cletine sucks, use Thalasso.

Uh, no, I thought mr. Haste, all the time would favor lower delay weapon when you keep 6-hit w/it, since the lower delay counters the higher dmg of skystrider, Cause it's 3% less delay vs 2.2% more damage, which Cletine will do .8% more dmg in DoT and WS since it attacks faster, 3% Crit/any earring pushes cletine more ahead of skystrider.

As for thalasso agruement, when you have aurum body, it's -3% delay vs 3% dmg increase, which is more or less the same, and 3% crit/5 vit is going to beat 2 dex/vit almost all the time, so I see no reason to use thalasso over it when you have Aurum.

Again w/o Aurum body, yea cletine does suck since breaks 6-hit, and As far as White Tathulm, yes need to depend on multi-hit ws, or extra tp on a jump w/barone piece, if you're using cletine for anything but drakesbane you're doing it wrong, so only worried about bird camp then, so you either get hit since you probably have hate since tp move used on you, use a jump, mediate, or lose 6-hit one round, it's same thing other DDs do[see drk, and war].

[Yugl]

Uh, no, I thought mr. Haste, all the time would favor lower delay weapon when you keep 6-hit w/it, since the lower delay counters the higher dmg of skystrider, Cause it's 3% less delay vs 2.2% more damage, which Cletine will do .8% more dmg in DoT and WS since it attacks faster, 3% Crit/any earring pushes cletine more ahead of skystrider.

As for thalasso agruement, when you have aurum body, it's -3% delay vs 3% dmg increase, which is more or less the same, and 3% crit/5 vit is going to beat 2 dex/vit almost all the time, so I see no reason to use thalasso over it when you have Aurum.

Again w/o Aurum body, yea cletine does suck since breaks 6-hit, and As far as White Tathulm, yes need to depend on multi-hit ws, or extra tp on a jump w/barone piece, if you're using cletine for anything but drakesbane you're doing it wrong, so only worried about bird camp then, so you either get hit since you probably have hate since tp move used on you, use a jump, mediate, or lose 6-hit one round, it's same thing other DDs do[see drk, and war].

Cletine does not keep a true 6-Hit Build unless you use an extra sTP item aside from Aurum/Rajas/Brutal/Sub SAM. You need 16.7TP on average for 6-Hit Build. Cletine in combination with those items reaches 16.6TP per hit.

It's 3% Crit v 6 STR 5ATT 1DEX 2ACC and 6.4 Extra TP on Jumps (Using sTP gear).

After WS, both reach a pseudo-5 Hit Build. If you include Barone gear (Which I didn't earlier) and sTP gear for Skystrider's Jumps, you reach a pseudo-4 Hit Build. No matter how you look at it, Skystrider wins at TP gain. Before WSs, only Skystrider and Thalasso have 6-Hit Builds. After WS, Skystrider/Thalasso only take one hit (2TP or less) to reach a 4-Hit Build. For Skystrider, the extra TP from Jumps is enough to make a 4-Hit Build without getting hit. For damage purposes, you're looking at the comparison I listed.

[Max™]

If you have 80% Accuracy you "only" need about 35% Haste (Spell 15%, March 11%~, Swift 4%, Haste hands 3% = 33% Haste, + 4% from Askar = 37% and 37% to 38% is better than 80% Acc > 81% Acc) for 1% haste to beat 1% hit rate.

I know you hate seeing it posted, but Askar is garbage... towngear, or super limited utility in extremely specific situations only.

Askar head should not be a full time piece, if it is, you're stupid and you're doing it wrong.

You should be defaulting to Turban because most of the time it's better, if you're not sure, Turban is probably better, because you need a specific type of situation for Askar to win. Askar is not the same as Ace's.

[Seraph]

Askar head should not be a full time piece, if it is, you're stupid and you're doing it wrong.

Except when you have to look awesome doing it. Or maybe when sitting on 80/80 inventory of other crap you absolutely must have. >_>

[Max™]

If you're at 80/80 you're definitely doing it wrong.

You should have left Askar at home in that case, there is no reason to have ANY Askar pieces outside of a relic user with the body, a Drg with the body, the feet for kiting/legs for a couple situations.

The head is a better WS piece than TP piece... but you can get Nhead/Ace's/Gnadbods/Maats for all the jobs, so seriously, cut that shit out.

[Yugl]

The head is a better WS piece than TP piece... but you can get Nhead/Ace's/Gnadbods/Maats for all the jobs, so seriously, cut that shit out.

And they're all just as easy to get as Askar.

If you have 13% Haste, what is the ACC needed for Turban to outdo Askar helm?

[Max™]

It's actually a matter of how much additional haste you have, if you're only at 13% Haste and uncapped on Accuracy, I have to wonder what you're doing.

[Seraph]

If you're at 80/80 you're definitely doing it wrong.

You should have left Askar at home in that case, there is no reason to have ANY Askar pieces outside of a relic user with the body, a Drg with the body, the feet for kiting/legs for a couple situations.

The head is a better WS piece than TP piece... but you can get Nhead/Ace's/Gnadbods/Maats for all the jobs, so seriously, cut that shit out.

Was just making the sarcastic joke that at least using Askar full time is better than using Turban full time. >_>


Though you also forgot situational Askar Legs use for BST.

[Wolfknight]

It's actually a matter of how much additional haste you have, if you're only at 13% Haste and uncapped on Accuracy, I have to wonder what you're doing.

Soloing something on drg[ie Greater Colibiri, Sea Puks, Antlion ENM, or etc].

edit:

Cletine does not keep a true 6-Hit Build unless you use an extra sTP item aside from Aurum/Rajas/Brutal/Sub SAM. You need 16.7TP on average for 6-Hit Build. Cletine in combination with those items reaches 16.6TP per hit.

It's 3% Crit v 6 STR 5ATT 1DEX 2ACC and 6.4 Extra TP on Jumps (Using sTP gear).

A "true" 6-hit for cletine only matters at bird camp, if you wanted to be really anal about you would simply macro white tathulm when you got feather tickled when jumps, and mediate were down, otherwise 16.6% per hit is fine, since you should be able to count on landing 2/4 hits of drakesbane normally, so again it's:
3% crit 2 acc -3% delay vs 2 dmg 5 att 6 str and jump tp bonus, unless you get feather tickled w/both jumps and mediate down.
So if you're eating feather tickle constantly then maybe skystrider, otherwise get DD that can share hate better.
And 4-hit is kinda silly, since you could only do once every 2:30 minutes and have to time both jumps for it then.

[Max™]

"legs for a couple situations"

They're a good piece for TP before homam/haidate/haste options, they're a good WS piece for a few situations, and they give the pet def buff as well, and no, using Turban full time is probably erring on the right side.

Saying something like 100 hits for 100 Dmg at the 13% Haste quoted above, if you're at 17% Haste/82% Acc with Askar thats like 9540 Dmg, 18% Haste/80% Acc is like 9440 Dmg, so yes in that case Askar is a bit better.

That begs the question though, what the hell are you doing that you're not getting any more haste, but you are only at 80% Acc?

In response to Wolf's post just now: Fair enough, but if you're talking about solo, it doesn't really matter that much, I'd argue it doesn't matter at all actually... but that's for you to decide.


For anything that matters, where you're doing something with other people, you're pretty much never better off using Askar head. It's about as useful as an evasion/regen build on Warrior... or an asshole on your elbow.

[Cream Soda]

even if you had to use white tathlum, it's not like drg can wear fire bomblett. Provided that same person does not have access to black tathlum, you're losing tiphia at best

[Wulfgang]

Probably a fail / repeated question:

My PLD is 68 and is approaching some of the more quality haste gear from my WAR/DRK/etc. For Flash, do most PLDs focus on haste or enmity swaps? Some pieces fit both criteria like Askar Manopolas, but others are more questionable I suppose like Iron Ram Greaves vs Homam Feet or Speed Belt vs Trance Belt.

I was leaning towards haste, but am open to a schooling.

[Yugl]

Saying something like 100 hits for 100 Dmg at the 13% Haste quoted above, if you're at 17% Haste/82% Acc with Askar thats like 9540 Dmg, 18% Haste/80% Acc is like 9440 Dmg, so yes in that case Askar is a bit better.

That begs the question though, what the hell are you doing that you're not getting any more haste, but you are only at 80% Acc?

In response to Wolf's post just now: Fair enough, but if you're talking about solo, it doesn't really matter that much, I'd argue it doesn't matter at all actually... but that's for you to decide.


For anything that matters, where you're doing something with other people, you're pretty much never better off using Askar head. It's about as useful as an evasion/regen build on Warrior... or an asshole on your elbow.

Thanks for the math/info, but I think it's up to the individual to decide what actually matters. A lot of times people say you should always use X item because on anything that matters, X item will outdo the other item. However, ideas of what matters varies considerably. That said, unless the situation is extreme (Like saying Askar is better at 50% ACC or whatever), it would be nice to see conditional statements rather than broad statements.

A "true" 6-hit for cletine only matters at bird camp, if you wanted to be really anal about you would simply macro white tathulm when you got feather tickled when jumps, and mediate were down, otherwise 16.6% per hit is fine, since you should be able to count on landing 2/4 hits of drakesbane normally, so again it's:
3% crit 2 acc -3% delay vs 2 dmg 5 att 6 str and jump tp bonus, unless you get feather tickled w/both jumps and mediate down.
So if you're eating feather tickle constantly then maybe skystrider, otherwise get DD that can share hate better.
And 4-hit is kinda silly, since you could only do once every 2:30 minutes and have to time both jumps for it then.

Actually it's not just every 2:30min. If you meditate after the WS, you'll reach 100 TP after one jump as opposed to 2x Jump or Jump + Hit. So in other words, here's what we're looking at:

[Cletine] Decrease Delay by 19 + 3% Crit v [Skystrider] 6 STR + 5 ATT + 6.4TP bonus to Jump + 2 ACC + 1 DEX + 2 Base DMG

You can add to this further by suggesting grip changes (Since Skystrider can use Sword grip without interfering with 6-Hit Build).

If you just use Tiphia Sting it comes to:

[Cletine] Decrease Delay by 19 + 3% Crit v 6 STR + 3 ATT + 6.4TP bonus to Jump + 2 Base Damage

You might be tempted to forgo the White Tathlum in order to make up for the difference in those stats, but if that's the case, then you have to consider these points:

1. Skystrider starting off will gain TP faster than Cletine

2. After WS, they both require 5 normal hits to reach 100 TP

3. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he uses Meditate

4. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he uses both Jumps

5. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he happens do DA a jump

6. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he uses one Jump and gets hit twice

7. The Skystrider user will have a lot less overflow TP, meaning he will have a faster start for the next TP round (Similar to how haste may not cut an extra swing, but will get you to kill faster and start the next mob faster).

[Wolfknight]

You can add to this further by suggesting grip changes (Since Skystrider can use Sword grip without interfering with 6-Hit Build).

If you just use Tiphia Sting it comes to:

[Cletine] Decrease Delay by 19 + 3% Crit v 6 STR + 3 ATT + 6.4TP bonus to Jump + 2 Base Damage

You might be tempted to forgo the White Tathlum in order to make up for the difference in those stats, but if that's the case, then you have to consider these points:

1. Skystrider starting off will gain TP faster than Cletine

no, it won't, with mediate at start for first ws, making it slower, and by changing grip you're forgoing 3% crit, or 2% DA and again I WOULDN'T using white tathulm, Also for the record sword strap breaks your "true" 6-hit more skystrider you're only getting 16.5 tp and only true if it also gives up range, so then they both use white and tiphia at same cases.
So again, with Cletine/Assault/Pole[or claymore] vs Skystrider/supy/Sword
2 acc 3% crit[or 6%] 2% DA 5 vit vs 6 str, 2 dmg, 1 att, and 6.4 tp on jumps, and And I think I'd take 2 acc, 6% crit, 5 vit over 6 str 2 dmg when using a crit based ws, again if you're using any other weapon obivously skystrider is better.

2. After WS, they both require 5 normal hits to reach 100 TP

3. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he uses Meditate

2. Yes, And 3. No it's same if you're going to use swordstrap, since it gets even less tp per hit than cletine.

4. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he uses both Jumps

5. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he happens do DA a jump

Valid points, I suppose.

6. After WS, the Skystrider user gains TP faster if he uses one Jump and gets hit twice

7. The Skystrider user will have a lot less overflow TP, meaning he will have a faster start for the next TP round (Similar to how haste may not cut an extra swing, but will get you to kill faster and start the next mob faster).

Again with 6 yes, but you're assuming swordstrap, so would be in the same boat, and 7 I am not sure what you're getting at by tp overflow.

[Yugl]

no, it won't, with mediate at start for first ws, making it slower,

The delay from Meditate is negligible since the person would be using the JA at the same time anyways. There's no reason a person with Skystrider would use Meditate and the person with Cletine wouldn't.

and by changing grip you're forgoing 3% crit, or 2% DA and again I WOULDN'T using white tathulm, Also for the record sword strap breaks your "true" 6-hit more skystrider you're only getting 16.5 tp and only true if it also gives up range, so then they both use white and tiphia at same cases.
So again, with Cletine/Assault/Pole[or claymore] vs Skystrider/supy/Sword

I was thinking about Vork when I made that comment, so scratch that and any points made at Skystrider due to the use of Sword Strap. In that case, we're left with points 1-7 as is.

Edit: TP overflow refers to wasted TP (TP > 100) due to wasting an extra swing.

[landmarktiger]

Sorry if this has been asked before - Full ares VS heca head, hauberk+1, heca hands, haidate, heca boots VS mix and match between ares and heca for Raging rush, Guillotine, rampage, Voporal blade.

[Altariel]

For a Leaden Salute build is an activated Uggalepih Pendant always going to be preferable to Light Gorget? My current build for COR/RNG with Martial puts me at 103 AGI+12 MAB. If understand the wiki formulas correctly I plugged into my spreadsheet:

Uggy: =SUM(1.2*(2*(103-"Target INT")+(4.25*(75+2+(0.83*(0.3*103))))))
Gorget: =SUM(1.12*(2*(103-"Target INT")+(4.35*(75+2+(0.83*(0.3*103))))))

It seems for any value of Target INT that Uggy will wins out. Is there any "accuracy" benefit from the Gorget since the damage is treated as elemental? Anything else I am missing here?

[Devinry]

Not really a comparison question, but figured this was the right place...

What are some acceptable feet options for endgame RNG with no relic or skadi?

Friend suggested Hume RSE2, Hachiryu is an option (although a stretch), War boots seem pretty meh.

Anything else I'm missing? (Planning to do primarily marksmanship if that matters.)

[Drace]

The only other things I can think of that you didn't already mention are Enkidu (4 RATT, 3AGI) and Denali. Hume RSE would be better than the denali, and probably a wash with Enkidu.