Whats better?

[Aragon of Odin]

Pretty sure he was referring to Steel Cyclone, 50%STR and 50%VIT are its mods.

[Max™]

Yup, I did the math for a variety of situations and couldn't find one where nfeet won except the 3 Dex giving a marginal acc benefit and inventory +1 since I carry em for RR anyway.

[Amele]

yeah I can see that. the rse is basically 2~4 WSC depending on what your str and vit look like ahead of time; the nfeet are 2-4~wsc+fstr (again depending on what your str looks like ahead of time) skewing toward 2 on the nfeet and 3 on the rse.

you short yourself 1~2 attack and accuracy but that's mostly a marginal difference. (you'd need to parse in controlled circumstances to really notice it.) I'd probably go with whichever piece lets me carry less gear - but if you're not hurting for space then it doesn't matter.

[ringthree]

Charger Mantle vs. Amemet Mantle +1 for Asuran Fists. Already have both so cost isn't a consideration.

[Rama]

Charger Mantle vs. Amemet Mantle +1 for Asuran Fists. Already have both so cost isn't a consideration.

I answer your question with a question.
Do you wear triumph earring or Ethereal/coral/merman's?

In honesty I'd think that unless it's something with extreme VIT that you have to push STR to avoid a damage penalty, 5att will serve you better than 2str

[ringthree]

I answer your question with a question.
Do you wear triumph earring or Ethereal/coral/merman's?

In honesty I'd think that unless it's something with extreme VIT that you have to push STR to avoid a damage penalty, 5att will serve you better than 2str

Is that a trick question? I use a Coral and a Merman's (too cheap to buy a second Merman's LOL). Ethereal when I finally decide to toss 5 other people together and finally finish Apoc Nigh. But I see your point.

I used to use the Amemet +1, but can't think of a reason to not switch over to Charger Mantle.

Now what about on TP build? I asked this question a while back, and got general answers that Amemet +1 would be better, but ideas change over time as we get a better understanding of the game mechanics, so I figure asking again won't hurt.

[Rama]

Is that a trick question? I use a Coral and a Merman's (too cheap to buy a second Merman's LOL). Ethereal when I finally decide to toss 5 other people together and finally finish Apoc Nigh. But I see your point.

I used to use the Amemet +1, but can't think of a reason to not switch over to Charger Mantle.

Now what about on TP build? I asked this question a while back, and got general answers that Amemet +1 would be better, but ideas change over time as we get a better understanding of the game mechanics, so I figure asking again won't hurt.

Naw, wasn't a trick question, unless you answered "Triumph" then I guess it was. I actually was Coral/Merman as well 'til I finished AN, and now do Merman/Hollow for Asuran, but ya.
As far as TP, I'd go with the Charger's as well.

My main issue (personally) with not getting a Charger's mantle is that 150 coins, even at a cheap 7k ea. is still over 1m. For that much I'd rather just full-time a half-price Forager's and keep the change.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Charger Mantle vs. Amemet Mantle +1 for Asuran Fists. Already have both so cost isn't a consideration.

Forager's Mantle.

Why you even took that many Ancient Beastcoins out of circulation is beyond my understanding.

[ringthree]

Forager's Mantle.

Why you even took that many Ancient Beastcoins out of circulation is beyond my understanding.

A friend and I pool coins to speed up getting items, and we were getting to the point were we were running out of stuff to get. By myself I don't have the gil or inventory space for Forager's Mantle when I have a myriad of other gear to get for other jobs. But I don't know why I really have to justify it to you, anyway.

Would Forager's Mantle really make a difference for MNK on TP or AF over Amemet +1 anyway?

[Tan]

Forager's Mantle.

Why you even took that many Ancient Beastcoins out of circulation is beyond my understanding.

Gotta agree, that Foragers, is probably better than Chargers. Because the added STR is going to net you an additional attack bringing the difference to 4 and also will boost your fSTR. Although theres gotta be something about that damn mantle we don't know about it because 150 ABC's seems a bit excessive to spend on something with a marginal attack bonus over your run of the mill back pieces.

[Amele]

it would depend on a bit on whether you were fstr capped or not.

on monk it's actually pretty easy to cap fstr. (with destroyers you'd cap fstr at a dSTR of like, maybe 28.)* so on say, g.colibri with their vit of 67 you'd see a capped fstr at only 95 strength. (a naked 75mnk has ~72 depending on race and sj)

if you have capped fstr, then the charger's (with its larger attack value) will be better for tp/ws/kitchen sink. if you don't have capped fstr then the calculations get a little harder but I tend to favor fstr on low damage; lower delay weapons over attack because fstr is a bigger share of the damage you apply each round.


*assumes unlocking destroyers doesn't also unlock wrank. if it does then you'd cap at a dstr of 36

[Tan]

Well going along with this past few questions, do we know anything about capping fSTR on kick attacks? i.e. How do using or not dune boots affect your fSTR with Footwork? Because I would think if you are swapping into footwork before a WS then the STR boost on something like foragers would shine even more vs. Chargers.

[Rama]

it would depend on a bit on whether you were fstr capped or not.

on monk it's actually pretty easy to cap fstr. (with destroyers you'd cap fstr at a dSTR of like, maybe 28.)* so on say, g.colibri with their vit of 67 you'd see a capped fstr at only 95 strength. (a naked 75mnk has ~72 depending on race and sj)

if you have capped fstr, then the charger's (with its larger attack value) will be better for tp/ws/kitchen sink. if you don't have capped fstr then the calculations get a little harder but I tend to favor fstr on low damage; lower delay weapons over attack because fstr is a bigger share of the damage you apply each round.


*assumes unlocking destroyers doesn't also unlock wrank. if it does then you'd cap at a dstr of 36

"Locked" weapons always have their unlocked weapon rank, Destroyers take dSTR 36 to cap. 103 total STR to cap on G.colibri, more for anything that actually 'matters.'

Without full Usukane and with D-body, monks do not TP in a great amount of STR. Mainly belt, back, and food. Maybe Rajas. Usukane mask once obtained. Osode if missing D.body but have an Osode.

Point being, for a monk almost any STR you're getting is useful, unless you're loaded up against a weak target.

Once in full-Usukane you're looking at quite a bit more STR in TP, and can worry about being probably capped against weaker merit mobs.

The real question was Charger's vs. Amemet+1 and I would take the Charger's. However, Forager's I see as at the least equal, and quite a bit cheaper.
edit: I would still have amemet+1 or forager's for non-asuran weaponskills also

[Max™]

Thank you Amele, that's how I was trying to phrase it to my Thf friend who was favoring Chargers over Forager's, fStr is a larger relative boost the lower your base damage is, so for X's/Blau as he uses, in most cases he will get 1 more fStr for 3~4 Att which, well... will that ever add the same as 1 more base damage?

[Tsuko_Asura]

it would depend on a bit on whether you were fstr capped or not.

on monk it's actually pretty easy to cap fstr. (with destroyers you'd cap fstr at a dSTR of like, maybe 28.)* so on say, g.colibri with their vit of 67 you'd see a capped fstr at only 95 strength. (a naked 75mnk has ~72 depending on race and sj)

if you have capped fstr, then the charger's (with its larger attack value) will be better for tp/ws/kitchen sink. if you don't have capped fstr then the calculations get a little harder but I tend to favor fstr on low damage; lower delay weapons over attack because fstr is a bigger share of the damage you apply each round.


*assumes unlocking destroyers doesn't also unlock wrank. if it does then you'd cap at a dstr of 36

If he has capped fSTR on anything significant, he's doing something very, very wrong.

EDIT: Unless he's a full-Usu Monk. In which case, my bad.

[Max™]

Elvaan Mnk, full Usu, Foragers, +6 or +7 food, Rajas, Black is what 77+35 Str in a stout TP build to boot, and would easily cap fStr on most merit mobs.

What gear there would you swap out for what?

[Amele]

it could; but not likely for a thief versus anything that you care about your gear on.

one way to put it to him is that whatever his attack/defense is - each 4 str will add about that much damage. - every 10 attack will add about 1/30'th* of the weapon's listed damage

*ignores his fstr; this is stupidly simplistic but serves as a gross rule of thumb for people like your friend

[Tsuko_Asura]

Elvaan Mnk, full Usu, Foragers, +6 or +7 food, Rajas, Black is what 77+35 Str in a stout TP build to boot, and would easily cap fStr on most merit mobs.

What gear there would you swap out for what?

Hence the, "Unless a full-Usu Monk" <_<;

That said, is he?


Also, keep in mind that this is a topic of discussion because of Charger Mantle, making Forager's Mantle moot in terms of figuring out if his fSTR is capped. And as a side note, Ew @ Rajas unless it alone is the determining factor in whether or not you cap your fSTR.

[Amele]

If he has capped fSTR on anything significant, he's doing something very, very wrong.

EDIT: Unless he's a full-Usu Monk. In which case, my bad.

I should've been clearer I guess. when I say 'easy' I tend to speak only in terms of possibility; not whether it's a smart build.

but if you've got a monk who does have 103 str and is contemplating a back piece for that set; then the right choice between the two is the charger. - the optimal choice is (probably) a totally different other 15 pieces of gear but that's not really relevant to the comparison of the two particular pieces.*shrugs*

edit: rajas also has relevance in conjunction with usukane sune-ate to do tp rate reductions for monk iirc. (just rajas will take you to 20 swings from 21 swings; rajas + usu takes you to 19 from 21) a typical asuran will give back about 3 hits worth (assumes 7 hits land). so getting to 19 would mean 8~ ish attack rounds to 100TP vs 9. which is a pretty big speed up.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I should've been clearer I guess. when I say 'easy' I tend to speak only in terms of possibility; not whether it's a smart build.

but if you've got a monk who does have 103 str and is contemplating a back piece for that set; then the right choice between the two is the charger. - the optimal choice is (probably) a totally different other 15 pieces of gear but that's not really relevant to the comparison of the two particular pieces.*shrugs*

Np, I understood what you meant, lol.