Whats better?

[Callisto]

While I know this is incredibly minor in regards to the discussion, I'd also like to point out that there's been a few times since switching to mace where g/f has pulled hate(or me playing as her) and by some obscene luck shield blocked a hit from a big baddy(her skill is pretty much nonexistant at the moment). It's rare, but it happens and it's another plus for the club/shield combo, since you can't parry w/ staff while not engaged.

[Amele]

8% hit rate > 2% Double Attack. Every time. Unless you're hitting the accuracy cap, which you will not be without Amano.

I'm hoping you're being sensationalist. (all calculations using nagamaki's accuracy rules)

304 skill and naked dex of 70 is ~345 accuracy.

a typical greater colibri has 336 evasion (level 81 colibri) + the level adjustment. level adjustment will be 4*(81-75) = 24 so it's at ~360 evasion equivalent. we will cap accuracy against it at 400 accuracy.

55 accuracy isn't impossible without amano (in fact, it's almost automatic if your bard is singing madrigal for some reason) it's not that uncommon anymore for a sam to have 30+ accuracy excluding body and there is gear today that would allow you to hit 55 excluding body (albeit at the cost of some haste.*)

and that's against a merit level mob. stuff like city dynamis trash it's not even going to be a question.

edit: for that matter, it's not necessary to actually cap out, just to get within ~2%. (396accuracy, ish)

*tiphia sting;ace's helm/usu head;pcc(4acc over j.torque);hachiryu kote;rajas;sniper+1/Toreador/etc;B.haidate;usukane_feet; is 55 accuracy. this isn't the only set but was the first that came to mind. other sets exclude more haste

[FailureMidgard]

I'm hoping you're being sensationalist. (all calculations using nagamaki's accuracy rules)

304 skill and naked dex of 70 is ~345 accuracy.

a typical greater colibri has 336 evasion (level 81 colibri) + the level adjustment. level adjustment will be 4*(81-75) = 24 so it's at ~360 evasion equivalent. we will cap accuracy against it at 400 accuracy.

55 accuracy isn't impossible without amano (in fact, it's almost automatic if your bard is singing madrigal for some reason) it's not that uncommon anymore for a sam to have 30+ accuracy excluding body and there is gear today that would allow you to hit 55 excluding body (albeit at the cost of some haste.*)

and that's against a merit level mob. stuff like city dynamis trash it's not even going to be a question.

edit: for that matter, it's not necessary to actually cap out, just to get within ~2%. (396accuracy, ish)

*tiphia sting;ace's helm/usu head;pcc(4acc over j.torque);hachiryu kote;rajas;sniper+1/Toreador/etc;B.haidate;usukane_feet; is 55 accuracy. this isn't the only set but was the first that came to mind. other sets exclude more haste

Are you just arguing to say it is possible to hit acc cap? Or are you trying to suggest dropping ~3-5% haste is worth gaining 2% DA? Even in your setup there, it seems to me it will always be worth it to switch out Askar Body for Haub+1 and switching out Hach Kote for Dusk...seems to me you're trying to correct a guy for assuming that people will be intelligent and try to max their haste...

That being said, with how "easy" it is to hit accuracy cap, I think a lot of people are overrating Usu head over Turban also. Switch to /drg to gain both acc (lose 5 skill, gain 10 acc) and haste (5% in the ear). Between 5.5 acc from that, and the 2.25 acc gain from Haub+1 over Hachi Kote, you can now drop your Ace's or Usu head, put on a Turban, and remain at accuracy cap.

[Tan]

Are you just arguing to say it is possible to hit acc cap? Or are you trying to suggest dropping ~3-5% haste is worth gaining 2% DA? Even in your setup there, it seems to me it will always be worth it to switch out Askar Body for Haub+1 and switching out Hach Kote for Dusk...

That being said, with how "easy" it is to hit accuracy cap, I think a lot of people are overrating Usu head over Turban also. Switch to /drg to gain both acc (lose 5 skill, gain 10 acc) and haste (5% in the ear). Between 5.5 acc from that, and the 2.25 acc gain from Haub+1 over Hachi Kote, you can now drop your Ace's or Usu head, put on a Turban, and remain at accuracy cap.

Read the above posts, someone was making the comment that 8% hit rate from a Hauby +1 was always better than 2% DA from Askar Korazin, unless you had Relic GKT since you couldn't hit the ACC Cap.

[Amele]

I was just proving that it's not exceptionally impossible. most people won't be that close to acc cap without a piece of body armor.

as for usu or ace's vs. turban.. I'm pretty sure I already had that discussion in this thread? (edit yeah we did thanks for being the anchor to find it Tan. lol)

[Ashira]

I use a capricorn staff + strap for haste/erase etc rather than a 4th mace but if I really wanted I could go with potential conserve mp. I elected to stay with definite reduction in recast timer as I have so much haste gear.

I use the 4th mace for devotion/martyr. It helps me get over 1200 HP as a hume.

^

Same, Capri. Staff here. I like being able to finish casting Haste on everyone I need to in about half the time.

Have thought about getting the Fourth Mace for Devo also but just don't have extra space on WHM anymore, so I just stick with Kirin's Pole and Raptor Strap that I'm already using with Capri Staff. That's also why I stick with this sort of setup over going to Healing Staff etc, for MP - max MP gets to be a pointless stat, and I go for a good standing HP set because I do use Martyr, and unlike Devotion you can't really set that one up. Obviously kinda shooting myself in the foot with the argument against Fourth Mace here, too, but still really am big on my recast timers, I adore having it.

If I went back to River Gauntlets for Devo, + got the Mace and some other HP shield, I'd have ... well over 1400 HP on my Mithra for Devotion... but where I'm usually using it when someone's Convert or Chivalry just isn't up yet or something, I guess I don't feel the need to try and cram more stuff to carry around on WHM just to give back more than 340 MP. :/

[FailureMidgard]

Read the above posts, someone was making the comment that 8% hit rate from a Hauby +1 was always better than 2% DA from Askar Korazin, unless you had Relic GKT since you couldn't hit the ACC Cap.

It is always better, because Dusk Gloves are always better than Hachi hands is my point. There may even be some very side cases like you are getting madrigal in a party of monks who need it, but in general use, Haub+1 is always going to be better because sacrificing haste to gain DA is always bad, and that is what you are doing. Basically, you say couldn't hit acc cap, I say shouldn't hit acc cap.

I was just proving that it's not exceptionally impossible. most people won't be that close to acc cap without a piece of body armor.

as for usu or ace's vs. turban.. I'm pretty sure I already had that discussion in this thread? (edit yeah we did thanks for being the anchor to find it Tan. lol)

My entire point was that if your numbers on accuracy cap are correct, I think people are underrating Turban. By your own #s and the switches I said (Drg sub, Wyvern Earring, Haub+1, Dusk Gloves), you will hit accuracy cap without the head slot. Meaning wearing Usu head is giving you 3 str for TPing in place of 2 haste, and even Ace's is just giving you 4 str in place of 1 haste. You also said 4 str alone would not beat out 1% haste. I wasn't asking which is better, I read that topic a few pages back and didn't feel like arguing, but if you're claiming that amount of accuracy as capped (I'm assuming you know what you're talking about there, I have no clue personally), then like I said, Turban should outperform Aces even.

[ringthree]

well, I guess the point I was making is that mace+shield is a better combo than light/apollo's+strap for curing. (and it is, if you want staff strap stats on sub there's a shield for that, in addition to a variety of other good options previously mentioned)

whether you think healing staff is better than templar mace is a different question (again, I prefer the general utility of shields to the staff but I recognize that some of that is just reluctance to pay more for the staff.) and after using the 50(70) extra mp up, you'd still be better off in a templar+shield combo.

that said, macroing can be a concern, and being able to leave the staff strap in place 90% of the time *would* save you macro lines.

...until you start collecting the various elemental straps...

I do have to say I can see that if you have the space and especially if you one of your main jobs is WHM then I would lean toward Amele's suggestion and having these many different options available to you. WHM will be my 7th job to 75 (72 currently and languishing) and the rest of my jobs are melee, so space comes at a premium. And I have to admit that it may cause a bias in some of gear decision making for WHM.

[Tan]

It is always better, because Dusk Gloves are always better than Hachi hands is my point. There may even be some very side cases like you are getting madrigal in a party of monks who need it, but in general use, Haub+1 is always going to be better because sacrificing haste to gain DA is always bad, and that is what you are doing. Basically, you say couldn't hit acc cap, I say shouldn't hit acc cap.

Okay you are getting way ahead of yourself nobody mentioned sacrificing haste for DA, the proposed gear set by Amele was simply a proposed one. I'm not sure if Amele included it in his Accuracy set but don't forget that Hasso will also provide 10 ACC. That being said you could probably swap in Askar Hands for Haciryu, still maintain Haste+ and some added ACC. Also those ACC requirements were for Greater Colibri which are merit mobs, events like Limbus/Assault/Salvage/Dynamis mobs (depending on the zone and floor) will have even lower ACC requirements. And this is when Askar shines.

About the haste, heres what Amele said:

askar and usukane are closer to each other than they are to w.turban and ace's - w.turban is clearly worse until 50% total haste, at which point the value of haste is effectively double and 1% becomes a bigger deal.

extra info: w.turban won't exceed ace's (assuming you can use the acc) until something like 74% total haste.. which isn't really obtainable on sam without SV marches.

@FailureMigard: I would have a tough time saying that I would prefer to use W.turban over something like Ace's for a 1% Haste gain if I could swap something like Askar Korazin instead of my Hauby +1 and gain from the added DA. Haste is great, but when it comes down to 1-2% personally I would prefer the DA for added TP gain and the added damage on WS's. This is also because in most situations outside of merit parties you will not make the optimal use out of max haste gear pending how fast monsters die, or whether you are limiting TP gain or what not.

[ringthree]

Okay you are getting way ahead of yourself nobody mentioned sacrificing haste for DA, the proposed gear set by Amele was simply a proposed one. I'm not sure if Amele included it in his Accuracy set but don't forget that Hasso will also provide 10 ACC. That being said you could probably swap in Askar Hands for Haciryu, still maintain Haste+ and some added ACC. Also those ACC requirements were for Greater Colibri which are merit mobs, events like Limbus/Assault/Salvage/Dynamis mobs (depending on the zone and floor) will have even lower ACC requirements. And this is when Askar shines.

About the haste, heres what Amele said:


I would have a tough time saying that I would prefer to use W.turban over something like Ace's for a 1% Haste gain if I could swap something like Askar Korazin instead of my Hauby +1 and gain from the added DA. Haste is great, but when it comes down to 1-2% personally I would prefer the DA for added TP gain and the added damage on WS's. This is also because in most situations outside of merit parties you will not make the optimal use out of max haste gear pending how fast monsters die, or whether you are limiting TP gain or what not.

I think you are missing the point of Amele's comment. She is saying that you would need at least 74% haste (this is a huge amount of haste) for the 1% gain from W. Turban to beat the Ace's. At that level of haste the 1% gain from haste would dominate pretty much anything including 2% DA.

[Tan]

Oh I'm not disagreeing with Amele, its FailureMigard. And his claim that people are underestimating W.turban vs Ace's. Edited my above post to reflect that, but I have no contentions that at nearly 50% Haste that 1% would be worth the loss in DA inorder to gain that haste.

[Terrestrialrage]

Having a bit of a dilemma here. Gonna post my Sam TP setup, would like some expert opinions.

Hagun/Pole/-/Olibanum
Aces/Justice/Fowling/Brutal
Haub+1-Usukane/Dusk-Ochiudo's/Ulthal/Rajas
Foragers/Swift/Byakko's/Usu

Now, my dilemma exists between Haub +1/Usu Body, and Dusk Gloves/Ochiudo's. Ive been using Haub +1 and Ochiudo's, figuring i have enough STP between Usu Feet, Rajas, and Brutal(full STP merits, etc.). What i would like to know is, 1) would TPing in Dusk force my neccesary STP to include Usu Body, and 2) would anyone recommend Ochiudo's over Dusk anyways.

[Terravcota]

Disclaimer: I don't really understand anything about melee jobs^^b

My BST just hit 70 should I switch from Patroclus's Helm (STR+2 Evasion-5 Haste+2% Enmity-5) to Ogre Mask +1 (MP+17 INT-6 CHR+5 Attack+12) for TP?

Also, for TP when I hit 72:
- Dusk Trousers +1 (HP+37 Attack+15 Ranged Accuracy+11) vs Royal Knight's Breeches (STR+2 DEX+2 Attack+3)?
- Panther Mask +1 (CHR+6 Haste+3%) vs Patroclus's Helm/Ogre Mask +1?

Some info: I'm a taru who duos with an elvaan - I rarely have hate. I already have the HQ masks and the HQ trousers sitting around, so cost effectiveness is not really a factor. I have NQ dusk hands/feet sitting around for 72, as well. I can list my gear if necessary since shit is situational and what not.

[Callisto]

I'd take Patroclus' and Trousers, w/ Dusk Hands/Feet as well.

[Tan]

Having a bit of a dilemma here. Gonna post my Sam TP setup, would like some expert opinions.

Hagun/Pole/-/Olibanum
Aces/Justice/Fowling/Brutal
Haub+1-Usukane/Dusk-Ochiudo's/Ulthal/Rajas
Foragers/Swift/Byakko's/Usu

Now, my dilemma exists between Haub +1/Usu Body, and Dusk Gloves/Ochiudo's. Ive been using Haub +1 and Ochiudo's, figuring i have enough STP between Usu Feet, Rajas, and Brutal(full STP merits, etc.). What i would like to know is, 1) would TPing in Dusk force my neccesary STP to include Usu Body, and 2) would anyone recommend Ochiudo's over Dusk anyways.

Total sTP required for a 6 hit with Hagun: 20
With what you have currently you have 14 from boots/ring. So if you have no sTP merits you would need Usukane Body to maintain a 6 hit build. This is the only circumstance I would use it as a SAM over a Hauby +1.

If you have 3- full sTP merits: I've never been a fan of Usukane Body for SAM, its really only 2 STR and 2 DEX with a loss of 12 ATT when compared to Hauby +1 I'd recommend using Hauby +1 for TP/WS.

Dusk would be the preferred hands over Ochuidos any day of the week.

[Tan]

Disclaimer: I don't really understand anything about melee jobs^^b

My BST just hit 70 should I switch from Patroclus's Helm (STR+2 Evasion-5 Haste+2% Enmity-5) to Ogre Mask +1 (MP+17 INT-6 CHR+5 Attack+12) for TP?

Also, for TP when I hit 72:
- Dusk Trousers +1 (HP+37 Attack+15 Ranged Accuracy+11) vs Royal Knight's Breeches (STR+2 DEX+2 Attack+3)?
- Panther Mask +1 (CHR+6 Haste+3%) vs Patroclus's Helm/Ogre Mask +1?

Some info: I'm a taru who duos with an elvaan - I rarely have hate. I already have the HQ masks and the HQ trousers sitting around, so cost effectiveness is not really a factor. I have NQ dusk hands/feet sitting around for 72, as well. I can list my gear if necessary since shit is situational and what not.

I know its not in your question but do you have O.hat? I would recommend probably using that over Patroclus and Ogre Mask both to ensure you are getting the most out of your hits. Probably go with Dusk Trousers for TPing and RK Breeches for Wsing.

[Terravcota]

I'd take Patroclus' and Trousers, w/ Dusk Hands/Feet as well.

Before 72, should I still stick to Patroclus' over Ogre? (I'll have the Ogre on me for charm gear anyway.)

Thanks for the help^^b

I know its not in your question but do you have O.hat? I would recommend probably using that over Patroclus and Ogre Mask both to ensure you are getting the most out of your hits. Probably go with Dusk Trousers for TPing and RK Breeches for Wsing.

My TP set is currently:

Lohar's Axe | Strike Shield
Patroclus' Helm | PCC | Spike Earring | Spike Earring
Haub +1 | Spiked Finger Gauntlets | Sniper | Sniper
Amemet +1 | Swift Belt | RK Breeches | Leaping Boots

I'm not sure if adding O. Hat would be an overload on ACC, really, but I have one sitting around. I use Tuna Sushi when playing for the +CHR and +ACC.

[Terrestrialrage]

I mightve been under the misconception that Haste affected TP return when its just ur actual delay. Then again i never got a chance to use my Sam, was always Brd for my old LS.

[Tan]

I mightve been under the misconception that Haste affected TP return when its just ur actual delay. Then again i never got a chance to use my Sam, was always Brd for my old LS.

Haste won't reduce your TP gain, but things like Enhances Dual Wield, and Sword Strap will.

[FailureMidgard]

Okay you are getting way ahead of yourself nobody mentioned sacrificing haste for DA, the proposed gear set by Amele was simply a proposed one. I'm not sure if Amele included it in his Accuracy set but don't forget that Hasso will also provide 10 ACC. That being said you could probably swap in Askar Hands for Haciryu, still maintain Haste+ and some added ACC. Also those ACC requirements were for Greater Colibri which are merit mobs, events like Limbus/Assault/Salvage/Dynamis mobs (depending on the zone and floor) will have even lower ACC requirements. And this is when Askar shines.

First off, I wouldn't include Salvage in that, as you don't unlock all your gear instantly except in Bhaf, and in Bhaf your dmg hardly even matters as the main bottlenecks on time are waiting for Pops at Ramparts, or waiting for clear pulls on gears. So if you really want to maximize that, you have to have a ton of different gear sets ready for if you're lacking various pieces. The only stat I would look at there is StoreTP, in which case I would use Askar body if I only had a leg/feet and body cell, and didn't have ring, just to hit my build. But chariots are definitely higher evasion than Colibri, and you'd also not use Hasso on them.
And are Dynamis mobs really lower evasion than Colibri?

I would have a tough time saying that I would prefer to use W.turban over something like Ace's for a 1% Haste gain if I could swap something like Askar Korazin instead of my Hauby +1 and gain from the added DA. Haste is great, but when it comes down to 1-2% personally I would prefer the DA for added TP gain and the added damage on WS's. This is also because in most situations outside of merit parties you will not make the optimal use out of max haste gear pending how fast monsters die, or whether you are limiting TP gain or what not.

I agree, I would have a tough time saying that too, but if all of Amele's numbers are correct, Turban should win over Ace's. And if you want to say "but Ace's lets you drop acc on Haub+1 to use Askar", I think you're ignoring too many other variables (drop PCC back out and use Justice Torque...thats a huge gain in str/attk for 1/4th the accuracy loss that Askar Body is). So even if you want to assume that is a strike against Turban (which it is, I'm not so blind as to think it isn't), then fine, but it still isn't a very convincing plus for Askar body IMO. Also, should leave WSes out of this, clearly haste is a bad WS stat and accuracy is significantly less important for GK WSes.

Finally, the way my group does salvage/limbus is melee burn, it runs exactly like a merit party, so I'm not sure how that applies. We don't melee burn omega or chariots, but even on chariots, the 2 melee on the chariot may as well treat it as a merit party (though, Ace's will definitely win due to chariot's evasion).


In the end, I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying. Yes Ace's is clearly better than Turban for general use, however, in that setup stated, there is excess accuracy, and free haste is good haste. That being said, when you drop under Ace's down to say Usukane or Askar, Turban begins to look better and better. Honestly, my actual opinion is Aces>Turban/Usu [these 2 are very close]>Askar.