Whats better?

[Callisto]

Before 72, should I still stick to Patroclus' over Ogre? (I'll have the Ogre on me for charm gear anyway.)

Thanks for the help^^b



My TP set is currently:

Lohar's Axe | Strike Shield
Patroclus' Helm | PCC | Spike Earring | Spike Earring
Haub +1 | Spiked Finger Gauntlets | Sniper | Sniper
Amemet +1 | Swift Belt | RK Breeches | Leaping Boots

I'm not sure if adding O. Hat would be an overload on ACC, really, but I have one sitting around. I use Tuna Sushi when playing for the +CHR and +ACC.

In regards to TP yes, Ogre Mask is a pretty decent chunk of Attack so it's nice for WS, although even then for something like Rampage I'd take O.Hat over it anyways.

For O.Hat vs. Patroclus', assuming you have 9% Haste already I'm not really sure where the line is that the 5%~ hit rate vs. the 2% Haste wins out, Amele probably would be a better person for that, lol.

Edit: And I see you're using sushi, in that case I'd probably do the Haste for TP and Ogre Mask for WS.

[Isiolia]

Lohar's Axe | Strike Shield
Patroclus' Helm | PCC | Spike Earring | Spike Earring
Haub +1 | Spiked Finger Gauntlets | Sniper | Sniper
Amemet +1 | Swift Belt | RK Breeches | Leaping Boots

Seems like an odd mix of high end and really pretty outdated/meh stuff.

Lohar really isn't that good. Placeholder for a few levels I guess? DPS-wise it's inferior to a Tungi, though WS would be better.

Strike Shield is an odd pick, unless you're sharing it with another job or maybe holding out for a Tatami at 72. Viking Shield would perhaps be better, or if you're pushing Haste, maybe a Sentinel Shield (3 STR, 1% Haste).

Leaping Boots are an odd choice as well. If your ACC is set, maybe consider Ogre Ledelsens? Cheap as a placeholder for Dusk, or a decent ATT piece in general.

[Amele]

It is always better, because Dusk Gloves are always better than Hachi hands is my point. There may even be some very side cases like you are getting madrigal in a party of monks who need it, but in general use, Haub+1 is always going to be better because sacrificing haste to gain DA is always bad, and that is what you are doing. Basically, you say couldn't hit acc cap, I say shouldn't hit acc cap.

well, yeah - but the point I was making was that if it only takes 55 acc to hit cap on a merit mob with an evasion bonus; what's it take to hit it on a dynamis trash mob in say, windy? I wasn't providing what I would consider a "smart" build, just a possibility.

anyway, if you have the accuracy overhead (say MMJ lurkers or hnm or something) then hachiryu hands are better (being about 12 accuracy) than dusk nq (which require a base haste of 50% excluding the gloves to give equivalent dps) so they're not always better either (caveat; in this sort of situation it'd be dumb to wear askar, you'd be wearing haub+1 and hachi hands, if not the ever elusive hachi body assuming they exist anytime soon).

My entire point was that if your numbers on accuracy cap are correct, I think people are underrating Turban. By your own #s and the switches I said (Drg sub, Wyvern Earring, Haub+1, Dusk Gloves), you will hit accuracy cap without the head slot. Meaning wearing Usu head is giving you 3 str for TPing in place of 2 haste, and even Ace's is just giving you 4 str in place of 1 haste. You also said 4 str alone would not beat out 1% haste. I wasn't asking which is better, I read that topic a few pages back and didn't feel like arguing, but if you're claiming that amount of accuracy as capped (I'm assuming you know what you're talking about there, I have no clue personally), then like I said, Turban should outperform Aces even.

on sam/drg in standard high end kit (haub+1/torque/dusk/usu-feet/etc to preserve 6 hit build) you'll have about 353 accuracy naked.

throw on tiphia, w.turban, j.torque, drg/bushi, haub+1, dusk, rajas/sniper+1, jaeger, swift, b.haidate, and usu sune-ate for a total of ~50 acc. (403 ttl)

so yeah, you're good to do it that way. but you're also on sam/drg instead of sam/war, so you're missing out on 5-6str, 15% DA, 15~% normalized attack bonus, etc. for 3 acc, jumps, and 6-7% haste.

I'm not sure that's a smart bargain. and as soon as you start fighting MMJ instead of colibri you'll be wanting the accuracy again anyway.

edit: and yes, I excluded hasso in all situations. in my experience you don't get to use it enough in most situations to really justify building gear sets around it.

that said, you could hit acc cap with hasso without using hands slot, providing you owned like.. a black tathlum.


and to the question about dynamis mobs: city dynamis trash isn't level 80. it may not even be level 75. the level adjustment is the primary thing making colibri 'hard' to hit. the other thing is that they've got a mild evasion boost which makes them more evasive than other D-class evasion mobs.

most mobs we fight aren't really evasive at all, the evasive stuff (lurkers, coeurls etc) we generally don't exp on.

and again, if you have use for 7 accuracy, 3.5% hit rate will outparse 2% haste until 43% haste excluding head slot. (not an impossible number but fairly high.) once you include the 3str the number gets closer to 47-50% (varies heavily depending on what D+FSTR is, for most samurai 3str is 75% of the time about 1.3% dps. it's complicated). most people don't ride the 47% haste line with all of their gear, let alone without a head piece.

[Terravcota]

Seems like an odd mix of high end and really pretty outdated/meh stuff.

Lohar really isn't that good. Placeholder for a few levels I guess? DPS-wise it's inferior to a Tungi, though WS would be better.

Strike Shield is an odd pick, unless you're sharing it with another job or maybe holding out for a Tatami at 72. Viking Shield would perhaps be better, or if you're pushing Haste, maybe a Sentinel Shield (3 STR, 1% Haste).

Leaping Boots are an odd choice as well. If your ACC is set, maybe consider Ogre Ledelsens? Cheap as a placeholder for Dusk, or a decent ATT piece in general.

Most of my gear is borrowed from a friend who plays all melee jobs for the most part (Haub+1, Gauntlets, etc.) - all my other jobs post 37 are mages. All the odd gear pieces you mentioned are laziness that I have upgrade stuff for at 72 (Lohar-> Maneater, Leaping->Dusk).

Strike Shield was a mistake though - I have Vikings. I always get them mixed up =(

I'll look into Ogre Ledelsens, never noticed their stats before.

[FailureMidgard]

well, yeah - but the point I was making was that if it only takes 55 acc to hit cap on a merit mob with an evasion bonus; what's it take to hit it on a dynamis trash mob in say, windy? I wasn't providing what I would consider a "smart" build, just a possibility.

anyway, if you have the accuracy overhead (say MMJ lurkers or hnm or something) then hachiryu hands are better (being about 12 accuracy) than dusk nq (which require a base haste of 50% excluding the gloves to give equivalent dps) so they're not always better either (caveat; in this sort of situation it'd be dumb to wear askar, you'd be wearing haub+1 and hachi hands, if not the ever elusive hachi body assuming they exist anytime soon).




on sam/drg in standard high end kit (haub+1/torque/dusk/usu-feet/etc to preserve 6 hit build) you'll have about 353 accuracy naked.

throw on tiphia, w.turban, j.torque, drg/bushi, haub+1, dusk, rajas/sniper+1, jaeger, swift, b.haidate, and usu sune-ate for a total of ~50 acc. (403 ttl)

so yeah, you're good to do it that way. but you're also on sam/drg instead of sam/war, so you're missing out on 5-6str, 15% DA, 15~% normalized attack bonus, etc. for 3 acc, jumps, and 6-7% haste.

I'm not sure that's a smart bargain. and as soon as you start fighting MMJ instead of colibri you'll be wanting the accuracy again anyway.

First off it's 1 base str (3 if you want to count the loss of Bushi because it should be wyvern/brutal, not wyvern/bushi). I'm confused where you got the rest of your numbers. 3 acc because of Ace's? As I said in the same post, I consider Ace's the best helm still, because I think the extra acc can't hurt. I also personally don't have perfect gear, so I definitely am not acc capped. So you only lose 10% DA, and with food + double minuet (if you have 2 bards), you are approaching the attack cap (from Ruke's tests) sans berserk.

But now we're way off topic about /drg vs /war. My original comment was that Usu vs Turban, people overrate Usu, then I added in that even if you had an Ace's, under the situation given, since that Accuracy on Ace's was potentially past cap, you would be okay with Turban. But again, I think Aces is better than Turban, which is near equal to Usu, as far as pure dmg output goes. Of course Usu also has some nice defensive stats on it on top of that.

EDIT: As far as 50 haste goes, that isn't that high if you're riding Hasso. Without Hasso it is a stretch. (11+15 spell, 5 leg, 2 feet, 3 hand, 4 belt = 40 pre Hasso). That is not counting Wyvern Earring, Dusk +1, or V Belt, which is up to 8 haste more, letting you be at 48 with only 1 march and no head slot. But with /drg, gaining that accuracy and the 5% haste makes the 43 a very very easy # to hit.

[Amele]

First off it's 1 base str (3 if you want to count the loss of Bushi because it should be wyvern/brutal, not wyvern/bushi). I'm confused where you got the rest of your numbers. 3 acc because of Ace's? As I said in the same post, I consider Ace's the best helm still, because I think the extra acc can't hurt. I also personally don't have perfect gear, so I definitely am not acc capped. So you only lose 10% DA, and with food + double minuet (if you have 2 bards), you are approaching the attack cap (from Ruke's tests) sans berserk.

But now we're way off topic about /drg vs /war. My original comment was that Usu vs Turban, people overrate Usu, then I added in that even if you had an Ace's, under the situation given, since that Accuracy on Ace's was potentially past cap, you would be okay with Turban. But again, I think Aces is better than Turban, which is near equal to Usu, as far as pure dmg output goes. Of course Usu also has some nice defensive stats on it on top of that.

EDIT: As far as 50 haste goes, that isn't that high if you're riding Hasso. Without Hasso it is a stretch. (11+15 spell, 5 leg, 2 feet, 3 hand, 4 belt = 40 pre Hasso). That is not counting Wyvern Earring, Dusk +1, or V Belt, which is up to 8 haste more, letting you be at 48 with only 1 march and no head slot. But with /drg, gaining that accuracy and the 5% haste makes the 43 a very very easy # to hit.

/drg gives you 10 acc, wearing w.turban sucks 7 acc back, leaving you with a net +3 over the same build but with /war and ace's or usukane somen.

I was comparing total builds and not just subjobs in a vacuum. I also dispute how much you can really keep hasso up without sponging but it's neither here nor there since that varies too much to really argue about.

and again, it's 43% -ignoring the str-. getting to 47% requires a peak setup (which does exist) but you're no longer talking about 'most' people deciding between w.turban and ace's or usukane somen and being locked into one subjob.

for the specific build you're suggesting, yes, w.turban is better.

in general, usukane somen is better than w.turban (and askar is too for that matter.) and I've already provided the numbers for why *and* where the points of inflection are for the cases where the general argument changes.

edit: and in fact, 43% is me being lazy. assuming worst case for 7 accuracy (91.5 -> 95%) 3.5% hit rate is a dps boost of 3.8% dps, which would require 47.3% haste excluding head. including the ~1 fstr on approximately 75% of samurai with a base fstr of about 12 and a hagun gives an additional 1.11% dps, or a total of 4.9% dps. for 2% haste to overcome this you'd need ~60% haste.

[FailureMidgard]

in general, usukane somen is better than w.turban (and askar is too for that matter.) and I've already provided the numbers for why *and* where the points of inflection are for the cases where the general argument changes.

edit: and in fact, 43% is me being lazy. assuming worst case for 7 accuracy (91.5 -> 95%) 3.5% hit rate is a dps boost of 3.8% dps, which would require 47.3% haste excluding head. including the ~1 fstr on approximately 75% of samurai with a base fstr of about 12 and a hagun gives an additional 1.11% dps, or a total of 4.9% dps. for 2% haste to overcome this you'd need ~60% haste.

That isn't entirely correct. First, you're neglecting WS dmg. For the accuracy, that will lead to more WSes over whatever time frame, but the fSTR addition will not. I don't have a good average by any means, but the last parse I have of myself /drg, my WS dmg was nearly 2x my melee dmg. Granted, I had meditates and jumps for some extra TP which is irrelevent to this conversation, but even in the best case for you, you should be halfing your fSTR dmg since it is not going to up the sizeable portion of damage that is your WS dmg. So I'd say you're looking at a 4.3% increase at best. You also ignored Zanshin, for what it's worth (~.3% difference in dmg between the 2). That drops it to 4%.

And at 50 haste, gaining 2% haste is:
1/(1-.5) = 2
1/(1-.52) = 2.083
(2.083-2)/2 = 4.1% increase in dmg

So I'll give you that 47% may be actually needed when you count everything, but you just tossed out 2 aspects that are favorable to turban. And 47% is obtainable easily as long as you are either a: Riding Hasso, or b: /drg with a Wyvern Earring.

Finally, just to cover this base, you say 91.5-95 is the least gain you'd get from 7 acc, which is true. But with half decent gear, nobody should be parsing under 90% really (short of Lurkers/Flash/etc), and you did give yourself full accuracy. A very likely case is someone is parsing in the 92-93% range, and is only gaining partial benefit from that accuracy.

[Amele]

That isn't entirely correct. First, you're neglecting WS dmg. For the accuracy, that will lead to more WSes over whatever time frame, but the fSTR addition will not. I don't have a good average by any means, but the last parse I have of myself /drg, my WS dmg was nearly 2x my melee dmg. Granted, I had meditates and jumps for some extra TP which is irrelevent to this conversation, but even in the best case for you, you should be halfing your fSTR dmg since it is not going to up the sizeable portion of damage that is your WS dmg. So I'd say you're looking at a 4.3% increase at best. You also ignored Zanshin, for what it's worth (~.3% difference in dmg between the 2). That drops it to 4%.

And at 50 haste, gaining 2% haste is:
1/(1-.5) = 2
1/(1-.52) = 2.083
(2.083-2)/2 = 4.1% increase in dmg

So I'll give you that 47% may be actually needed when you count everything, but you just tossed out 2 aspects that are favorable to turban. And 47% is obtainable easily as long as you are either a: Riding Hasso, or b: /drg with a Wyvern Earring.

Finally, just to cover this base, you say 91.5-95 is the least gain you'd get from 7 acc, which is true. But with half decent gear, nobody should be parsing under 90% really (short of Lurkers/Flash/etc), and you did give yourself full accuracy. A very likely case is someone is parsing in the 92-93% range, and is only gaining partial benefit from that accuracy.

it's obvious to me at this point that you and I have very different approaches to how we play sam, so I'll simply concede the point: on /drg, w.turban *does* make sense in many merit situations. (although I've always said 47%+ was sufficient)

and again, the 47% had two caveats: 1) you had use for the accuracy, and 2) you -barely- had use for the accuracy. (it takes you to cap) (and it ignores the str effect entirely. I also ignored the ~1-2 attack which if you *really* want to get into tiny deltas like zanshin at near cap accuracy we can get into).

if either of those is untrue the number where w.turban over takes usu somen changes.


but -in general- since in general most samurai are both not /drg and not riding hasso all that much the original lists I gave are still applicable.

[FailureMidgard]

it's obvious to me at this point that you and I have very different approaches to how we play sam, so I'll simply concede the point: on /drg, w.turban *does* make sense in many merit situations. (although I've always said 47%+ was sufficient)

and again, the 47% had two caveats: 1) you had use for the accuracy, and 2) you -barely- had use for the accuracy. (it takes you to cap) (and it ignores the str effect entirely. I also ignored the ~1-2 attack which if you *really* want to get into tiny deltas like zanshin at near cap accuracy we can get into).

if either of those is untrue the number where w.turban over takes usu somen changes.


but -in general- since in general most samurai are both not /drg and not riding hasso all that much the original lists I gave are still applicable.

The fSTR from 3 str is barely a larger increase than then Zanshin is (.5% vs .3% increase in DPS). 2 attack on the other hand will get rounded out a vast majority of the time.

And due to Ruke, I think /drg is being used more and more, the prices on the earring more than doubled on my server since his LJ post. And again, I think that Samurai parsing at 92+% accuracy is not -that- uncommon (which skews your #s).

And for the record, I don't generally ride Hasso, but in a good merit group, it is definitely doable on birds.

[Amele]

sure, 1.1% * .6 = 0.66%.

but hell, 2 attack is about .3% so we're back to about 1% which is what I used initially etc.

and you're right! 92%+ isn't uncommon but I haven't seen anyone do it without a +7 acc head piece or /drg. (remember I used the weaker of the two levels of colibri.)

[Velecic]

I'm not great with numbers and all... and it's really hard to parse, so... please forgive me for being a noob. Here's my current dilemma / situation. Summed up, how much STR / DEX / ACC / ATK is worth giving up how much % of haste? Currently debating the following (DRK/SAM - Apocalypse - Catastrophe for 10% haste but of course it isn't always up):

Head Slot - Askar vs. WTurban (I don't do HNMs so no access to ace's ;; )
4 STR 4 DEX 4 VIT vs. 30hp/mp + 1% Haste

Feet Slot - Aurum vs. Homam
3 DEX .5-1 ACC 5 Attack vs. 31 hp/mp + 1% Haste

I currently am still working on Homam Cosciales and I only have Swift Belt for Waist Slot, so the two different setups put me at either 15% + 10% from Catastrophe (Turban / Homam) or 13% + 10% from Catastrophe (Askar / Aurum).
The reason I ask is because I don't have Aurum yet, but if it's worth giving up the 1% haste off Head then it should be the same for feet slot, which means I'd want to get a pair of Aurum Sabatons. Thanks in advance for any responses and feel free to ask for any clarification.

[FailureMidgard]

sure, 1.1% * .6 = 0.66%.

but hell, 2 attack is about .3% so we're back to about 1% which is what I used initially etc.

and you're right! 92%+ isn't uncommon but I haven't seen anyone do it without a +7 acc head piece or /drg. (remember I used the weaker of the two levels of colibri.)

or 1.1*.4 = .44% (my parse was like 34/66 between melee/ws..but that had mediates.)
1.5/600 = .25%

Look, the only reason I brought up Zanshin is you're bringing up .x% increases in dmg such as fSTR on melee attacks. Sure, it matters, but the zanshin difference is .3% and the fSTR difference is .44%, if you're gonna bring small shit up, then do it correctly. Every time you round up, you get a little further away, and in the end you sway the amount of haste needed by 5-10 points because of these small inaccuracies. Lets not forget that 3 STR is actually only .75 dmg on average, not 1, so you rounded up there as well.

And I quote myself:

But again, I think Aces is better than Turban, which is near equal to Usu, as far as pure dmg output goes. Of course Usu also has some nice defensive stats on it on top of that.

If anything, the fact that we are nitpicking over these small %s I think kinda proves that I was right. And I think if you redid the math, you would see Askar falling behind even moreso (though with how high you value STR ignoring WS here, I can see why you like Askar, you're treating it as ~10 str in melee gear).

Ace's is the best helm, hands down. After that, Usukane and Turban are both going to be neck and neck. Perhaps it is situational even, but the marginal difference between the 2 has so many factors that are near impossible to quantify, I don't think you can fairly say 1 is better than the other. Askar should almost always fall behind both.

It is almost necessary to look at other things such as the actual ratio between your melee and WS dmg (assuming 0 meditates), which of course is based on how good your WS setup actually is (including overwhelm and GK merits), what buffs you have (Sam roll favors haste, 2 haste songs favor haste, acc songs favor haste, extra attack songs favor acc but nullifies attack [hurts askar]) including subjob (berserk + food + minuet or berserk +2x minuet, or berserk + chaos roll with drk should cap attack, negating a little more).

Is there a best for any given situation? Sure, but there are way too many factors being neglected that could tip it either way between Turban and Usukane. The margin of difference is just so small in so many situations. If anything throws Usukane definitely over Turban, it's the Agi, Evasion, and defense IMO.

[Edit: I see no more reason to continue this debate publicly, I think you should redo your math for Askar and such and use some actual ratios there (which I don't even have), if you care. Askar Helm is a very overrated piece. I'd be more than willing to discuss it with you in PMs, but I doubt others want to read this, sorry for having it go this long.]

[Amele]

eh. you're working from a 34/66 mix when I'm working off of sam/war which parses closer to 55/45. of course our numbers are wildly different.

I'm also using a general case that's at least 10 acc and 5% haste lower than yours, so that changes it alot too.

so I don't really see a point in continuing to discuss it here or in pm, we just have to agree to disagree.

[wadegi33]

perdu sickle tred scythe or moliones for drk

[Callisto]

Molione's is technically best afaik, but marginally. Perdu would do just fine if you have the rank/IS ready to go.

[Callisto]

Hitting 69-70 PLD this week(hopefully), I have a General's Shield and I really don't have problem holding hate in XP, so I'm looking to switch out my beaver tail for a better DD option...Joy or Company?

Leaning towards Joy but 20D is a lot.

[Amele]

Hitting 69-70 PLD this week(hopefully), I have a General's Shield and I really don't have problem holding hate in XP, so I'm looking to switch out my beaver tail for a better DD option...Joy or Company?

Leaning towards Joy but 20D is a lot.

go pld/nin and use flash instead of that initial voke. the DD are about to become the tanks anyway honestly.

[Callisto]

I was planning on saving that for 72~ when I can wear Dusk, at least from the parties I've had so far at 68 the fights aren't short enough to not have voke, lol.

[Furionstormrage]

Use the Joyeuse over the Company if you're not going /NIN, the overall DoT will outweigh the Companys higher base damage.

[Callisto]

I guess an offshoot question, I was also considering trying PLD/DNC from 70-72, it seemed decent on paper, a form of voke, 2 forms of cures for hate, acc bonus, etc. Thoughts?