Whats better?

[Max™]

For my War/Sam G.axe ws what's better for merit considering colibris and mamools:

Perdu/Claymore

It's something like a 6% Mathematical increase in WS Crits (going from say, a 15% base rate from Dex/Merits, adding 3% goes from 39% > 45% WS Crit rate) which more than makes up for the DoT loss from 2% DA in every scenario I've seen, and tested (since the DoT loss isn't a complete one, 3% Crits improves DoT to a lesser, but still noticeable extent) and since DA's during WS seem (still technically untested) to be capped at 2, whereas crits are not...

I'd say the top setup would be your best bet.

Though, whether there is a tiered jump or not from Dex>Agi (can we call this fDex? lol) the 118 number still showed an essentially capped out crit rate, so 68+50 could definitely be viable to shoot for.

Since you can parse, I'd be very interested in seeing the 68+46 vs 68+50 to see if you can identify a distinguishable increase in WS average from that change alone.

[Mugekuge]

Perdu/Claymore

It's something like a 6% Mathematical increase in WS Crits (going from say, a 15% base rate from Dex/Merits, adding 3% goes from 39% > 45% WS Crit rate) which more than makes up for the DoT loss from 2% DA in every scenario I've seen, and tested (since the DoT loss isn't a complete one, 3% Crits improves DoT to a lesser, but still noticeable extent) and since DA's during WS seem (still technically untested) to be capped at 2, whereas crits are not...

I'd say the top setup would be your best bet.

Though, whether there is a tiered jump or not from Dex>Agi (can we call this fDex? lol) the 118 number still showed an essentially capped out crit rate, so 68+50 could definitely be viable to shoot for.

Since you can parse, I'd be very interested in seeing the 68+46 vs 68+50 to see if you can identify a distinguishable increase in WS average from that change alone.

I've tried claymore before and my ws average went down a bit, i would like to parse both setups but is hard because sometimes i have double brd, other is brd and cor, other is 1 brd, and i dont merit too much now, hard to get 2 good long parses examples to test for me atm.

[Rasantath]

for ninjutsu nuking build (yeah, yeah)

Ninja Kyahan +1 (INT +6)
or
Koga Kyahan (Ninjutsu skill +10) (+1 has +12 skill)
or even
Fuma Sune-ate (Haste+3%, for lowering recast timer)

[Max™]

I know a Nin in my sky shell used to counternuke Faust for the Blm's, he'd apply the opposite Nin nuke to put that elemental debuff up, and then they'd nukebomb it.

Seen him kill Faust with a nuke once or twice, slipping em in for the last little bit of damage, always funny.

I'd say the same rules as Blm's would apply, would need more than base skill to lower resists, so Koga shoes would be good, should be able to start cast in haste, and finish in skill (or is it the other way?) with a macro /wait setup.

[Ruiner]

I know a Nin in my sky shell used to counternuke Faust for the Blm's, he'd apply the opposite Nin nuke to put that elemental debuff up, and then they'd nukebomb it.

Seen him kill Faust with a nuke once or twice, slipping em in for the last little bit of damage, always funny.

I'd say the same rules as Blm's would apply, would need more than base skill to lower resists, so Koga shoes would be good, should be able to start cast in haste, and finish in skill (or is it the other way?) with a macro /wait setup.

You can't swap for Haste/Skill. They both take effect as the spell goes off.

[Omniyoji]

You can't swap for Haste/Skill. They both take effect as the spell goes off.

yeah, fast cast onry and still you'll only receive half of the effect.

[Max™]

I learned something then!

I don't mage, so I just recall hearing about swapping stuff in before cast ends.

[Chupunpupun]

Perdu/Claymore

It's something like a 6% Mathematical increase in WS Crits (going from say, a 15% base rate from Dex/Merits, adding 3% goes from 39% > 45% WS Crit rate) which more than makes up for the DoT loss from 2% DA in every scenario I've seen, and tested (since the DoT loss isn't a complete one, 3% Crits improves DoT to a lesser, but still noticeable extent) and since DA's during WS seem (still technically untested) to be capped at 2, whereas crits are not...

I'd say the top setup would be your best bet.

Though, whether there is a tiered jump or not from Dex>Agi (can we call this fDex? lol) the 118 number still showed an essentially capped out crit rate, so 68+50 could definitely be viable to shoot for.

Since you can parse, I'd be very interested in seeing the 68+46 vs 68+50 to see if you can identify a distinguishable increase in WS average from that change alone.

I use to use perdu/claymore too than I realize that perdu/pole is better because it helps with TP gain and DA proc during WS would mean another hit and another chance of critical.

[Max™]

Capped at 2 DA's during WS anyways, and it takes something like 250 swings before you pick up an extra WS.

Feel free to work out the math, I'll do it later again, but mathematically the Crit increase on WSes outweighs the DA during WS/additional WS after however many swings.

It's a pretty large boost to WS average damage.

[Mugekuge]

Correct me if these maths are bad:

If my avg hit damage is 198.2 and my avg critical hit damage is 286.7 (all these numbers taken from my last party at mamool from dvsparse).

2% DA is 2 DA every 100 hits, 198.2 x 2 = 396.4 additional damage every 100 hits.

3% Critical is 3 more hits doing critical damage every 100 hits: 286.7 - 198.2 = 88.5 damage extra per hit, so 88.5 x 3 = 265.5 additional damage every 100 hits.

396.4 - 265.5 = 130.9 more damage using pole grip every 100 hits than with claymore.

And this doesnt take in consideration the extra DA can critical too.

[Max™]

So you lose 130 on the DoT side, but what about getting roughly 6% more crits during those WSes, vs the (capped at 2) DA's during WS which would have the normal crit rate.

As it was explained to me, you take your Crit rate in WS gear (15~20% in most cases), subtract that from 100% to find the chance of not-critting, or 85~80%, so .85^.85^.85, or .80^.80^.80, and then reverse it back and you wind up with 39% for 15%, or 49% for 20% Crit rate.

15 > 18% Base WS gear Crit rate goes from 39% > 45% WS Crit rate, 20 > 23% WS gear crit rate goes from 49% > 55% WS Crit rate.

So what it boils down to is, will the DoT gain+boost to WS damage from 2% DA beat the smaller DoT gain + 6% Crit rate boost to WS damage.

All the math I've seen worked out on it suggests that the Crit rate increase tips the scale in favor of the 3% Crits, and that is before considering that you (probably) can't get more than 2 DA's per WS, but you CAN get 5 Crits.

[Kroot]

the 2 DA hits also gain tp which add roughly [("tp per hit" * 2)/100]*"Avg WS Dmg"
assuming they don't proc on WS and you don't DA over 100% tp ><

[FailureMidgard]

So you lose 130 on the DoT side, but what about getting roughly 6% more crits during those WSes, vs the (capped at 2) DA's during WS which would have the normal crit rate.

As it was explained to me, you take your Crit rate in WS gear (15~20% in most cases), subtract that from 100% to find the chance of not-critting, or 85~80%, so .85^.85^.85, or .80^.80^.80, and then reverse it back and you wind up with 39% for 15%, or 49% for 20% Crit rate.

15 > 18% Base WS gear Crit rate goes from 39% > 45% WS Crit rate, 20 > 23% WS gear crit rate goes from 49% > 55% WS Crit rate.

So what it boils down to is, will the DoT gain+boost to WS damage from 2% DA beat the smaller DoT gain + 6% Crit rate boost to WS damage.

All the math I've seen worked out on it suggests that the Crit rate increase tips the scale in favor of the 3% Crits, and that is before considering that you (probably) can't get more than 2 DA's per WS, but you CAN get 5 Crits.

First off, I'd like to state I don't know how multi-hit crit WSes work exactly...do the hits not maintain the same hit:crit dmg ratio as auto-swings? If this is way off, forgive me, but my understanding was this followed the same pdif rules/etc.

Second, I do know your logic on the double attacks is flawed. Sure, you can only get 2 extra swings per WS...but at the same time, you can crit every swing without that extra 3% crit. Both stats have the potential to be redundant. In fact, both stats will have "diminishing returns" in a way (the same way accuracy is). Adding 1% crit at 5% and at 50% adds the same amount of raw damage, but the % increase in your damage output goes down as the %crit goes up. This is the exact same for Double Attack. As such, your comment about double attack applies to both DA and crit (and accuracy and attack and strength and well, every stat except for haste!).

Anyway, based on the #s aapr posted and my understanding of pdif with relation to crits, I think 2% DA should -always- beat out 3% crit on WSes, even moreso than on melee attacks (because as you get a crit bonus from TP, your crit becomes "less valuable"). The fact is, a single DA adds over twice the damage that a single crit adds. The higher your pdif, the less the crit will help (since the % added damage is basically 1/pdif), especially if your base pdif is between the 2.0 and 2.4 range, in which case you don't even get a full 1.0 added to the pdif. As a side note, if you are somehow at a .5 pdif, the crit becomes far better than the DA.

Anyway, the calculations for crit chance you posted is the chance to get at least 1 crit in 3 hits...using a similar calculation for the DA, you get:
.78^3=.474 -> 52.6% for 1+ DA at 22 DA
.76^3=.439 -> 56.1% for 1+ DA at 24 DA
This is an increase of 3.5% chance to get at least 1 DA.
Going from 20 to 23 crit, you also rounded up by a decent amount
.80^3=.512 -> 48.8% for 1+ crit at 20crit
.77^3=.457 -> 54.3% for 1+ crit at 23crit
This is an increase of 5.5% chance to get at least 1 crit.

Anyway, based on aapr's data, thats 3.5*190 (665) vs 5.5*88.5 (487).
Furthermore, this is just the chance to get "at least 1 crit" or "at least 1 da", and not the actual increase in damage you will see. That being said, this will mirror the actual relationship you will see rather well.

TLDR version: Crit and DA functions are calculated in the same manner, but the fact remains that a crit adds 1.0 pDIF and a DA adds your current pDIF. If your pDIF is greater than the squareroot of 1.5 (~1.22) and your base crit% is >= your base DA rate, Pole Grip should beat out Claymore grip. The higher your crit is than your DA, the lower your pDIF can be for Pole to win. If your DA chance is actually higher than your crit, then your pDIF will need to be higher for Pole to win out.

[Max™]

19% DA, with gear and merits at all but bird camp, it is considered a "good" rate to have 15% Crit rate, and I'm not sure how to model the 2x DA cap, or the chance of DA's getting the benefit of more crit, and vice versa.

Most WS sets won't push 20% (which would be 115~118 Dex at Birds, more at other camps) which would explain why I've always had these results.

I know when I swap into WS gear, I'm kicking the base damage up a lot with fStr/WSmods (71+41 Str before food/hasso/etc), but not pushing attack as much, trying to max out the effect of the crits, so it could be a case of building for the crits to be better, but I've yet to get the same effect with any other setup.

[Genmu]

Have these been parsed yet? Which is better(HNM or Meripo)?

Algol RareExclusive
(Great Sword) All Races
DMG: 85 Delay: 489 Attack +3
"Triple Attack" +3%
Additional effect: Fire damage

VS

Naglering RareExclusive
(Great Sword) All Races
DMG: 85 Delay: 501 Accuracy +4
Attack +20 Magic Accuracy +3


Also, for Guillotine and Spinning Slash

Ares's Flanchard RareExclusive
[Legs] All Races
DEF: 35 HP +2% MP +2%
STR +6 DEX +6 INT -3 MND -3
"Double Attack" +2%
Set: Enhances "Double Attack" effect

VS

Onyx Cuisses
[Legs] All Races
DEF: 30 STR +5 Attack +16
Damage Taken +14%
Enhances effect of "Absorb" spells

[Bagel]

Wall o' text

From a purely mathematical perspective of looking at delay and how long it takes you to get to 100 TP, Naglering is the fastest TPing GSD, then lolPerdu, Algol and then Subduer. You also have to take into account that Subduer gets an extra hit in compared to the others, while Naglering gets one fewer. This has its upsides and downsides, as more hits in relatively same amount of time is more damage, but double/triple attacks should weigh it slightly more in the larger delay GSDs' favor as would meditate and abs-tp I think. I'm not mathmagician though, so I don't want to figure that out, nor do I want to look at the special stats on the swords, crit+ vs. triple attack vs. attack. Now my DRK is 65 and I've never seriously used GSD on WAR or PLD so this is without a whole lot of experience on the subject, but I'm a speed freak and a fan of crits so I'm leaning towards Subduer even though a Naglering with proper Store TP setup may get more WSs in same amount of time. Also, I have an unlocked Subduer but no Naglering!

[FailureMidgard]

19% DA, with gear and merits at all but bird camp, it is considered a "good" rate to have 15% Crit rate, and I'm not sure how to model the 2x DA cap, or the chance of DA's getting the benefit of more crit, and vice versa.

Most WS sets won't push 20% (which would be 115~118 Dex at Birds, more at other camps) which would explain why I've always had these results.

I know when I swap into WS gear, I'm kicking the base damage up a lot with fStr/WSmods (71+41 Str before food/hasso/etc), but not pushing attack as much, trying to max out the effect of the crits, so it could be a case of building for the crits to be better, but I've yet to get the same effect with any other setup.

There is no reason to go out of your way to model the cap. All you are concerned with is the average damage over an infinite number of swings. Pole Grip will result in 2 extra swings out of every 100 swings. Claymore Grip will result in 3 extra crits out of every 100 swings.

The cap is the diminishing returns I was referring to. If you have a 5% chance to DA, after 100 swings you will have actually swung 105 times. Adding 5% DA past this means you will go from 105 to 110 swings. The "cap" is virtually the same thing as the fact that adding 5% DA to a setup that has 5% DA is actually adding 5 extra swings per 105 swings, not per 100. If you are at a base of 20 DA and you add 5 more DA, you are now adding 5 extra swings per 120. The "cap" is relative to the % increase in damage, but as I said, the functions for just raw damage done vs crit or DA are linear functions. Adding 5% DA at either # adds the exact same amount of damage per second over time. But again, crit works the same way.

As for your other question, of DA getting benefit from crit and vice versa...The main times this comes into play is if you are pushing 1 of the stats much higher than the other. It's the same idea of maximizing the area of a rectangle while limiting the perimeter. The ideal in that situation is always a square. Meaning, if you get something like fighter's roll, then Claymore Grip will gain a bit, but at the "normal" numbers, they are already somewhat close to square (and RR gets a crit bonus past your parsed crit% from TP, so is likely higher than your DA chance).

Anyway, if you want to do an accurate model, then just assume perfectly average swing results for 100 RRs (300 base swings), and look at the #s. I'll do it for you if you like, but I'm unsure if lolwiki's stats on RR are correct (it says +10% crit rate at 100tp, is that accurate?). Assuming that is correct, I'll assume a crit rate of 25% on RR base with no Grip, and 19% DA with no grip.

For the Pole Grip:
300*1.21 = 363 DA adjusted swings.
363 * .25 = 90.75 critical hits
363-90.75 = 272.25 non critical hits.

For the Claymore Grip:
300*1.19 = 357 DA adjusted swings.
357*.28 = 99.96 critical hits
357-99.96 = 257.04 non critical hits.

Relative Comparison:
99.96-90.75 = 9.21 more critical hits for Claymore
272.25-257.04 = 15.21 more non critical hits for Pole Grip.

First off, these #s include the crit enhancing DA and DA enhancing crit, since they have already been multiplied together in both cases. We're also assuming the D+fstr+WSC value is the same in both cases (calling it D), and it is irrelevant to the outcome of which stat is better, and the base pDIF value is the same.

Pole = 15.21*pDIF*D
Claymore = 9.21*D*(pDIF+1)

To figure out where they are equal, we set the 2 equations equal to each other, and D quickly cancels out.
15.21*pDIF = 9.21*(pDIF+1)
15.21*pDIF = 9.21*pDIF + 9.21
6*pDIF = 9.21
pDIF = 9.21/6
pDIF = 1.535 (Looks like I made an error last post slightly!)

In any case, it should be obvious to most people with just even just a little math background that if you add or subtract a constant to the pDIF, the Pole Grip value will vary more (if you subtract from pDIF, the Pole Grip value will drop lower, if you add to pDIF, the pole grip value will increase higher). The % changes are C/1.535 and C/(1.535+1), with C/1.535 being clearly a higher value (or lower if C is negative), where C is the constant being added to the pDIF.

So ummm, honestly, I have no clue what the defense value is for various merit mobs, but a while back Ruke claimed to be near capping his pDIF with 2 attack songs and food and no berserk, so if I had to guess, I would guess you are above 1.5 pDIF with just berserk and 1 attack song.

[Max™]

I'm not sure about 10% Crit boost to RR, honestly, since they gave it a 1.0 fTP to start at, always assumed it was "can crit" at 100%, +5~10 per 100% TP.

This does bring to light an interesting point, where with the DA rate and crit rates most people will have, it looks like a mix and match depending on weapon would fare best of all.

I whip a Rampager around currently (still rankin up, so I can't even test Perdu vs Rampager myself yet T.T), and looking at these numbers I should do better with a Pole grip after all, where Byakko's/Perdu/Fort should/could reap better benefits from Claymore.

If nothing else, all the calculations I've been doing, and seen done, have been helping my dyscalculia tremendously, so thanks all you mathicisers, I appreciate it.

[Ruiner]

too much math head asplode

[Amele]

too much math head asplode

what's better has always been a math heavy thread. people never ask the 'easy' questions (i.e.: which is better? flame ring or ruby ring?)