Whats better?

[FailureMidgard]

I'm not sure about 10% Crit boost to RR, honestly, since they gave it a 1.0 fTP to start at, always assumed it was "can crit" at 100%, +5~10 per 100% TP.

This does bring to light an interesting point, where with the DA rate and crit rates most people will have, it looks like a mix and match depending on weapon would fare best of all.

I whip a Rampager around currently (still rankin up, so I can't even test Perdu vs Rampager myself yet T.T), and looking at these numbers I should do better with a Pole grip after all, where Byakko's/Perdu/Fort should/could reap better benefits from Claymore.

If nothing else, all the calculations I've been doing, and seen done, have been helping my dyscalculia tremendously, so thanks all you mathicisers, I appreciate it.

Well, even if you redo all that with 15% crit base, it'd end up as 9.81/6 or 1.635 pDIF to equal. I still think you are likely higher than that with food/bard, not to mention berserk/warcry (which if you alternate them have what, an 80% uptime with merits?).

I think it would be very hard to have a well geared, merited, and properly buffed warrior get more benfit from a Claymore than Pole. I think the only situation it may be close is with Fighter's roll.

Does anyone actually have the defense values for merit mobs? Instead of stating a pDIF needed, it may be more useful to state approximately what attack value is needed.

Also, I think the most interesting thing from this is the value of Claymore Grip on higher defense targets (Genbu GO!). Furthermore, the value of dex (as it pertains to crit) relative to str will go up when your pDIF goes down.

[Raen Ryong]

Level 82 Greater Colibri has 327 Defence according to other wiki, mamools will have more than that etc, but it gives you a nice point to work from.

[Nitrous24]

I'm curious for other people's input on this subject. Here is my current tp build setup.

http://www.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full...R4Axq1egNF.png
I was wondering which other people think are better to go with my setup. Aurum or homam feet. Before anyone asks That's a claymore grip in the pic. I screwed up when i took it. It's supposed to be a pole grip ><

[Indalecia]

I'm curious for other people's input on this subject. Here is my current tp build setup.


I was wondering which other people think are better to go with my setup. Aurum or homam feet. Before anyone asks That's a claymore grip in the pic. I screwed up when i took it. It's supposed to be a pole grip ><

/SAM

[Nitrous24]

I'm /nin in the picture because i was going to einherjar. I'd rather not die a million times to scorpions and such.

[Indalecia]

I'm /nin in the picture because i was going to einherjar. I'd rather not die a million times to scorpions and such.

Huh? I normally just die, if at all, to the boss.

[FailureMidgard]

Level 82 Greater Colibri has 327 Defence according to other wiki, mamools will have more than that etc, but it gives you a nice point to work from.

So just using some random attack values:

523 attack. Ratio = 1.6. cRatio = 1.25. pDIF max = 1.5. pDIF min = 1. pDIF avg = 1.25.

605 attack. Ratio = 1.85. cRatio = 1.5. pDIF max = 1.8. pDIF min = 1. pDIF avg = 1.4.

703 attack. Ratio = 2.15 cRatio = 1.8. pDIF max = 2.16. pDIF min = 1.36. pDIF avg = 1.76

These aren't entirely random. I used my Samurai's attack as a general guideline, and then added or subtracted a couple attack to get a nice round number. The first line (523 attack) is with cheap meat (meat mithkabob) and nothing else. The 2nd line (605 attack) is the same meat and a single minuet. The 3rd line (703 attack) is the same meat, a single minuet, and berserk.

Some things to note:
After 605 attack, the min function scales upwards, making attack past 605 more valuable than before 605 (vs colibri).
After 660 attack, the max function passes the 2.0 mark. This is when criticals stop giving +1.0 pDIF on the high rolls. The higher you go, the more "redundant" crits you will have, lowering the average pDIF increase per crit. The pDIF at 660 attack is 1.6 (which is already past the number that assumes 25% base crit on RR with 100tp).

Anyway, that should give a decent idea what is better. Also, I don't know how many mages do it, but it seems to me many more mages cast Dia2 on mamool than on birds. After a Dia 2, a Mamool's defense will actually be lower than that of the birds by a bit.

Well buffed/debuffed, Pole should win. Lack of song/food/etc, Claymore may be better. Those attack values are higher than I expected honestly!

[Amele]

your pdif averages are definitely incorrect for the first two - the function distribution is non-normal. (it's not even close to normal) mode is 1.0 when 1.0 is in the range; this has an effect of inflating or suppressing pdif_average by a significant margin depending on whether 1.0 is above or below pdif_mid. your pdif_average above 605 is possibly correct but not provably so without extensive testing that none of us has been willing to do yet. (pdif_average = pdif_median = pdif_mid is only true for certain possible distributions and not for all of them.)

the pdif_max under crit is in excess of 3.0 [1]
this is true as of the end of the 2h buff/nerf (the one that made sam ws weaker and changed boost from str/dex from 1:1 to 4:3) so it should still currently be true. (this is for both 1h and 2h weapons, although I linked kirschy's post because it's about 2h specifically. see the OP for the 1h/h2h version.)

any mage with both dia2 and erase should be casting it on birds btw. yell at them if they aren't.

anyway, the basic evaluation you made is pretty accurate, with bad attack ratios crits and double attacks become pretty close in overall damage increases.

[Jaybar]

I wish I read this thread a long time ago, haha. Anyway, here are a couple questions that have arisen since reading from Page 11 (Oh what a read...).

First the easy question which I believe I have the correct answer for, but I was just confused when I was reading posts:

All Polearm Weaponskills for Dragoon - Neck Piece

-- Gorget or Love Torque? --

Now I read that Gorget was better than a PCC, and I am certain that a Love Torque would perform better (especially with the +DEX) but I was getting mixed answers from players. I assume Love Torque will always pull ahead. I just need some reassurance.



Ok, now for the harder question.

Currently at Birds I have capped accuracy. At Mamools I parse about 90% but that includes fluctuations such as Sea Puks and the occasional Ninja Mob. I ALWAYS party with at least two bards or bard+corsair, usually giving a Madrigal or something along those lines.

My Current WS setup for Penta Thrust/Wheeling Thrust/Skewer is as follows:

Thallasocrat/Pole Grip/--/Sachet
Hecatomb Cap/Love Torque/Brutal Earring/Merman's Earring
Hecatomb Harness/Hecatomb Mittens/Ulthalman's Ring/Raja's Ring
Amemet+1/Swordbelt+1/Conte Cosciales/Hecatomb Leggings

For Wheeling Thrust I swap out the swordbelt for Warwolf. Now I know there is room for some improvement but can/will come at a cost. The question comes...do I do full Ares when the time comes? And what can be improved upon currently (note: I have Ares Cuirass ready...when a 25 piece drops)?

The Hecatomb Setup comes out to be (Full Hecatomb, not the setup above. Also not including the other accessories) --
STR+36
DEX+20
Atk+20
Acc+10

The Ares's Setup comes out to be --
STR+22
DEX+6
Acc+29
Atk+43
Double Attack +% (7% with cuisses?)

In my mind it seems a full Ares setup would be ideal if only for the Atk and DA bonuses. A Full Ares's would also be best for a Penta Thrust build, but what about a Skewer/Wheeling Thrust build (Skewer being a Critical Hit WS and Wheeling Thrust being a large STR Mod and one-hit). Side-note, Claymore Grip for Skewer, yes? Also should I be TP'ing in that from now on after reading the rest of this thread XD

[FailureMidgard]

your pdif averages are definitely incorrect for the first two - the function distribution is non-normal. (it's not even close to normal) mode is 1.0 when 1.0 is in the range; this has an effect of inflating or suppressing pdif_average by a significant margin depending on whether 1.0 is above or below pdif_mid. your pdif_average above 605 is possibly correct but not provably so without extensive testing that none of us has been willing to do yet. (pdif_average = pdif_median = pdif_mid is only true for certain possible distributions and not for all of them.)

the pdif_max under crit is in excess of 3.0 [1]
this is true as of the end of the 2h buff/nerf (the one that made sam ws weaker and changed boost from str/dex from 1:1 to 4:3) so it should still currently be true. (this is for both 1h and 2h weapons, although I linked kirschy's post because it's about 2h specifically. see the OP for the 1h/h2h version.)

any mage with both dia2 and erase should be casting it on birds btw. yell at them if they aren't.

anyway, the basic evaluation you made is pretty accurate, with bad attack ratios crits and double attacks become pretty close in overall damage increases.

Hmm, that's odd that it isn't normal...I assumed it would just be some sort of random number mixed with a hash to get a relatively normal distribution.

I guess it'd be pretty hard to figure out the needed attack then, but in any case, all those #s are just to have an equal value on WSes alone. The fact that DA also increases WS rate works in it's favor a bit more. The best thing to do is probably use empirical data to guess the damage added per crit and approximate an average pDIF that way?

[FailureMidgard]

I wish I read this thread a long time ago, haha. Anyway, here are a couple questions that have arisen since reading from Page 11 (Oh what a read...).

First the easy question which I believe I have the correct answer for, but I was just confused when I was reading posts:

All Polearm Weaponskills for Dragoon - Neck Piece

-- Gorget or Love Torque? --

Now I read that Gorget was better than a PCC, and I am certain that a Love Torque would perform better (especially with the +DEX) but I was getting mixed answers from players. I assume Love Torque will always pull ahead. I just need some reassurance.



Ok, now for the harder question.

Currently at Birds I have capped accuracy. At Mamools I parse about 90% but that includes fluctuations such as Sea Puks and the occasional Ninja Mob. I ALWAYS party with at least two bards or bard+corsair, usually giving a Madrigal or something along those lines.

My Current WS setup for Penta Thrust/Wheeling Thrust/Skewer is as follows:

Thallasocrat/Pole Grip/--/Sachet
Hecatomb Cap/Love Torque/Brutal Earring/Merman's Earring
Hecatomb Harness/Hecatomb Mittens/Ulthalman's Ring/Raja's Ring
Amemet+1/Swordbelt+1/Conte Cosciales/Hecatomb Leggings

For Wheeling Thrust I swap out the swordbelt for Warwolf. Now I know there is room for some improvement but can/will come at a cost. The question comes...do I do full Ares when the time comes? And what can be improved upon currently (note: I have Ares Cuirass ready...when a 25 piece drops)?

The Hecatomb Setup comes out to be (Full Hecatomb, not the setup above. Also not including the other accessories) --
STR+36
DEX+20
Atk+20
Acc+10

The Ares's Setup comes out to be --
STR+22
DEX+6
Acc+29
Atk+43
Double Attack +% (7% with cuisses?)

In my mind it seems a full Ares setup would be ideal if only for the Atk and DA bonuses. A Full Ares's would also be best for a Penta Thrust build, but what about a Skewer/Wheeling Thrust build (Skewer being a Critical Hit WS and Wheeling Thrust being a large STR Mod and one-hit). Side-note, Claymore Grip for Skewer, yes? Also should I be TP'ing in that from now on after reading the rest of this thread XD

Where to start...
Claymore Grip is likely only better if you are fighting a very high defense or high level creature. All the numbers I ran were vs a lvl 82 G.Colibri (Colibri are actually 81-82) without any form of defense down. With a Dia2, any merit mob will actually result in higher cRations than what I said (even 83s I believe). You also said you have 2 buffers of some form, meaning you are more likely to have 2 attack increases. Furthermore, Pole Grip helps you TP faster still. That being said, you don't have berserk still. Personally, I don't think owning a Claymore Grip is worth the inventory slot for you...you have 2 other strong WSes that get 0 benefit from Claymore, and even on Vorpal it really depends on your pDIF, which it seems we can't even get a good estimate on. While meriting with food/buffs/dia2/whatever, you will very likely have enough pDIF to make it a negligible difference, to say the least.

As for your armors, first off you are comparing the wrong stats. There is no reason whatsoever to use full Hecatomb. Heca Harness is garbage if you have capped accuracy. Heca subligar is also likely going to be outdamaged by Ares (this is just eyeballing atm). So you really should be comparing Heca Helm/Feet/Hands + Ares Body/Legs to full Ares:

Heca Combination:
str: 42
dex: 18
attk: 24
DA: 2%

Cancelling like terms you have Heca(20str, 12dex) vs Ares(5% DA, 19 attk, 29 acc)
20 strength is actually 15 attack + fSTR + WSC mods, 12 dex is actually 9 accuracy.
So Heca(20rawstr, 12rawdex) vs Ares (5%DA, 4attk, 20acc).

Across 100 base swings (109 swings adjusted for Pole/Brutal/Ares), 5% DA gives 5 more swings (4.6% increase).
20rawstr and 12 rawdex is 5+3.32+1.99 = 10.3 weapon damage, meaning your adjusted D+fSTR+WSC would need to be ~200 before 5% DA would pass this. Even with 150 str and 150 dex you're looking at 94+37.5+49.8, which falls short of the needed value. And I think 150 in each stat is far more than you would ever be able to realistically get (not to mention fSTR is probably capped by then). Point is, it would take more STR than you can realistically get/benefit from in order for the DA to win.

That being said, I ignored the accuracy and 4 attack (4 attack would be .4% increase perhaps, putting you at 5% net increase, which is actually what my 200 # was anyway). If that 20 accuracy is needed to cap accuracy on Penta, full Ares will likely be worth wearing. If you will remain capped without it, then I would say an Ares/Heca mix is the best thing you can do. I also neglected the fSTR cap...I honestly don't know what STR value it is at, but even if you past it a little bit, I think with realistic numbers for your str and dex total (not 150 on each...), the Ares/Heca combination will win out.

As for your neck slot, with the current understanding that the .1 fTP mod only applies to the first hit, with Penta, Love Torque is far and away better than Shadow Gorget.
For Wheeling however, you are looking at a near 6% increase in damage vs 7 attack. There is no way possible for 7 attack to come anywhere near what a Torque would give.
For Vorpal, you're looking at 10% damage vs 7 attack.
Really, Love Torque should be for TPing and Penta only.

[Amele]

Hmm, that's odd that it isn't normal...I assumed it would just be some sort of random number mixed with a hash to get a relatively normal distribution.

I guess it'd be pretty hard to figure out the needed attack then, but in any case, all those #s are just to have an equal value on WSes alone. The fact that DA also increases WS rate works in it's favor a bit more. The best thing to do is probably use empirical data to guess the damage added per crit and approximate an average pDIF that way?

in the area of the function where 1.0 pdif isn't within the valid curve, it used to be apparently true that it was either normal or linear (no one had really done the work to determine which - the effect on the average was the same so it didn't really matter from a gear evaluation standpoint) although most of the testing was done with a capped cRatio vs level 1 mobs.

because the pdif result function is "sticky" about 1.0 (mode is always 1.0 if 1.0 is anywhere in the valid range) the function deforms in the range where 1.0 is a valid return and, therefore, won't be normal or linear.

people were just getting started on the pdif distribution tests when SE decided to fuck with how it all works (3 times in quick succession) and so most of the better testers moved on to other projects, or left the game for other reasons.

SE also used to state some weird stuff about STR vs. Attack that we all largely ignore these days (mostly about one stat deforming the curve and the other setting the max and min; that we took as being a discussion of FSTR vs. PDIF but may in fact have been a discussion about PDIF distribution) it's all on the list of stuff I want to conclusively test someday.

[sleekmotorwurkz]

This question isnt so much a "whats better" but here goes...
Ive had the 15 and 35 ares mask pieces for a while, and I havent been pushing my group to go for the 25 because I cant think what the hell im going to use it for. However I just got my 35 skadi feet, so we are going to have quite a few LBC runs coming up. So in the event I get the ares 25 mask, where could I fit it in the following.

I have DRK/PLD/WAR 75 that can all use the ares mask, but I have

Aces Helm, Askar Zucchetto, W. Turban and Hecatomb Cap which I use for all my TP/WS needs on all 3 jobs. Any Idea where I can fit in the mask? or should I just save my gil?

[Amele]

This question isnt so much a "whats better" but here goes...
Ive had the 15 and 35 ares mask pieces for a while, and I havent been pushing my group to go for the 25 because I cant think what the hell im going to use it for. However I just got my 35 skadi feet, so we are going to have quite a few LBC runs coming up. So in the event I get the ares 25 mask, where could I fit it in the following.

I have DRK/PLD/WAR 75 that can all use the ares mask, but I have

Aces Helm, Askar Zucchetto, W. Turban and Hecatomb Cap which I use for all my TP/WS needs on all 3 jobs. Any Idea where I can fit in the mask? or should I just save my gil?

I'd consider saving the gil honestly; although acc+12 att+12 sounds pretty hot for multihit weaponskills. either way I'd probably upgrade the skadi feet first if it's a question of loot priority / cash to upgrade

[Chupunpupun]

This question isnt so much a "whats better" but here goes...
Ive had the 15 and 35 ares mask pieces for a while, and I havent been pushing my group to go for the 25 because I cant think what the hell im going to use it for. However I just got my 35 skadi feet, so we are going to have quite a few LBC runs coming up. So in the event I get the ares 25 mask, where could I fit it in the following.

I have DRK/PLD/WAR 75 that can all use the ares mask, but I have

Aces Helm, Askar Zucchetto, W. Turban and Hecatomb Cap which I use for all my TP/WS needs on all 3 jobs. Any Idea where I can fit in the mask? or should I just save my gil?

I got ares mask and I use it for my ACC TP and ACC WS build. Usually swap to it when I'm blinded or meleeing HNMs.

I also got skadi feet too and the only job that really needs it is BST, which I have 75 too. Personally, I would finish the mask first unless you got THF75 and don't have striders.

[Ophannus]

Is this a decent Penta Thrust set? Hume DRG/WAR STR:77 Polearm:8/8

Thalassocrat
Pole Strap
Tiphia's Sting
Hecatomb Cap
Shadow Gorget(Love Torque Pending)
Ethereal Earring(Or should I use Bushin)
Brutal Earring
Hecatomb Harness
Hecatomb Mitts(Or should I use Drn.Gaunt+1 or Alkyeoneos)
Rajas Ring
Flame Ring
Forager's Mantle
Warwolf Belt
Conte Cosciales
Hecatomb Leggings


STR:77+59
DEX: 65+24


The obvious improvements I see are
Conte Cosciales->Ares' Flanchard
Tiphia Sting->Black Tathlum

Would Wyrm Belt be better than Warwolf? And would Bushin be better than Ethereal Earring?

Also it seems no matter how much STR i stack onto Wheeling Thrust(77+65) i cant ever really break 650 damage on most HNMs even sky gods as DRG/THF. SAMs seem to do 600-1k Kashas with EASILY less STR than me... ;_;

[Ferien]

For WAR zerg: Fortitude Axe or anything else? Assume 6 songs, all the fun stuff.

[ringthree]

I'm curious for other people's input on this subject. Here is my current tp build setup.

http://www.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full...R4Axq1egNF.png
I was wondering which other people think are better to go with my setup. Aurum or homam feet. Before anyone asks That's a claymore grip in the pic. I screwed up when i took it. It's supposed to be a pole grip ><

I would probably favor Homam feet, but Amele will probably say I am wrong. ^.^

I think you have enough Store TP to do without the Askar body and maybe look into an Ares body. I could be wrong on that, I didn't do the math, but I remember someone telling me that.

[Max™]

I usually topped the Wars in the 40~50 some odd Kirin burns I did using my Martial Bhuj, actually.

200% TP (could use a diff axe/swap to Mbhuj after a 300%, but any mistake in macro lag loses a lot of damage at capped magic + hasso + 20% gear haste) buffs/2hr, Steel, meditate, wail violently for a few seconds til your TP hits 170~180 (it will probably hit 200 by the time you WS), WS gear, Warrior's charge, WS... and I rarely lived after that.

2 WSes for 3.5~4k Dmg generally pushed me right up near the 100fisting Monks, even though I think I've only survived maybe 5 or 6 out of 40~50 Kirins I did.

I didn't get the same results the times I Fort axed, the melee Dmg increased naturally, but even with the opening WS and RR spam I couldn't catch up to the huge spike from two "300%" 2hred Steels, especially not the times where I had one double on it's own, and WC'D the other.


Regarding Wheeling Thrust not breaking 650 as Drg/Thf, what is your attack, and can you get Minuets/Eat meat?

[sleekmotorwurkz]

I got ares mask and I use it for my ACC TP and ACC WS build. Usually swap to it when I'm blinded or meleeing HNMs.

I also got skadi feet too and the only job that really needs it is BST, which I have 75 too. Personally, I would finish the mask first unless you got THF75 and don't have striders.

Its not really a question of either/or. If LBC drops both pieces I will get both due to me being the only person with the 35's of either piece. So it really has nothing to do with the skadi (and yes I want them for thf, no I dont have striders), I only brought that up because that would be the main reason we are focusing on LBC at the moment. In the event the mask drops though I will have all 3 pieces and not sure what to use them for...

But I do like the idea of using it when blinded or for hnms that I dont need a ton of haste on Thanks!