Whats better?

[Miraun]

@Guns

That first quote about the sword strap/grip/whatnot was in regards to a 6 hit build I was creating for Ryunohige, which integrates a sword strap since the relative value of double attack decreases due to aftermath.

Gut instinct tells me to go for Pole grip, even if the store TP effects keep a 6 hit setup, the +2% DA will influence WSs... You're going to be WSing often... since you have a 6 hit setup... Also the DA can proc on our jumps, which you can't really measure when trying to linearize DPS

Have you considered using other body pieces rather than Aurums if your Store TP is that excessive? How does Aurums compare to Askar in terms of DPS?

[Gunslinger]

Yeah, I'm more than willing to stick with Pole (I love me some double attack), but am just trying to explore new ways to maximize what I have access to (even if they're not normally applicable).

The store TP I have isn't necessarily excessive, it's more of a consequence of the gear I'm using (Rajas 5, Brutal 1, Valk Fork 3, Aurum 7). The first 3 of those I use because they're the best gear I own for the slots.

As for Aurum, I'm convinced it would be ahead of Askar for a majority of situations. It is essentially (with some creative rearranging):

Aurum- 6 Def, 3 Str, 8 Dex, 3 Attack, 2sTP Vs. Askar- 2% Double Attack, 8 VIT, 8 AGI, 12 evasion

If you're only counting "melee" stats, it basically becomes:

3 Str, 8 Dex, 3 Attack, 2sTP Vs. 2% DA

That call would be up to your accuracy I'd suppose, but I know (even as a drg!), that 6 acc in addition to Aurum's superior str, att, and crit%s win out over 2% DA for me. I can usually maintain a pretty nice crit build with the other gear I use for merits.

[drwaffles]

Magnetic really is nice

It's really not. But neither is Static unless you're a BLM main, and even then it's more icing than anything. That said, I chose Magnetic first and then went back and swapped it for Static later on, never regretted it once; I have a Seveneyes for activating Conserve MP on RDM.

[Valyana]

Oh, you're right--with the same number of hits to WS, of course 3% lower delay will increase WS rate as well. I think that makes Sword Grip a clear win for you; WSing 3% more often beats doing 1.85% more damage on each individual WS.

Incidentally -delay is calculated separately from Haste, so the effect of -delay is independent of how much Haste you have. Stacking -delay (otherwise known as Dual Wield or Martial Arts) works the same as stacking Haste, but 2h weapons can only get -delay from Sword Grip.

[Miraun]

I dunno, the STR and ATT are pretty deminimus, and probably won't increase the damage in a noticable difference. The real basis of argument is around the ACC...

Really depends on your other gear. Predominantly: Homam Hands or Dusk Gloves? Speed Belt versus Swift Belt.

If you're using Homam/Swift, you probably have enough ACC to cover you using the Askar. Dusk, ehh, not so much...

In other posts on BG, I had Ruke compare Homam, Askar, and Ares body pieces. Homam body came up #1 due to the 2.5% TA, while only utilizing half of the ACC. It was widely regarded that Homam > Askar > Ares > Aurum based on the calculations. Here's a link to the discussion:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showt...t=60327&page=3


It can never be simple, can it? Wear Aurum Body & Sword Grip... or use Askar and Pole Strap... Gotta compare sets now!

Editted to add:
I like how we ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THIS... to some extent... in the other thread

[Gunslinger]

Yeah, I originally posted in that thread hoping Ruke would do some numbers on Aurum, but he never got around to it (or refuted it, but I know he gets busy!) lol.

Here's how I see the non 6-hit armors, personally:
-Homam body possibly only having 1% TA (it's in another thread atm), I imagine it would skew Rukes numbers a bit (not to mention be acc overkill for a lot of drgs, when they could use att/str instead). Still, I'd use this on jumps, several HNMs, and THF mobs.
-Ares is great, except it basically removes a true /sam 6-hit. For anything /sam I see Askar/Aurum as a better choice, but for any other sub it would be a no-brainer (especially drg/mage... just beautiful).

My main argument for Aurum is that it's the only 6-hit armor that still enables you to gear for crits and provides accuracy (I currently melee in around +30dex and it makes a notable difference, hopefully more once askar helm finally drops!).

In any case, it's always "shit's situational," but from what I understand about how delay reduction/haste works it's going to provide more benefits when stacked than when DA is stacked. I would love to see someone crunch numbers comparing all of these armors though, especially Askar/Pole Grip vs Aurum/Sword Strap. For me though, the question of sword vs pole for aurum has been answered though, and that was my true "what's better" question


EDIT: We totally did ALREADY TALK ABOUT THIS :O lol. Our opinions remain the same, and our questions unanswered!

Seriously though, I just want one of those awesome excel files Ruke uses, I'll even plug the stuff in myself!

[Khajit]

have you guys considered linking your conversations to the item pages on the wiki?
It would be a nice thing to be able to look at a wiki page for a peice of armour and know how well it stacks vs other options that aren't glaringly obvious.

[Naash]

Quite true. Here are the stats:

I'm still not sure which Apocalypse Nigh reward to pick:

Magnetic for RDM? [MP +20, "Conserve MP" +5, Spell Interruption Rate Down 8%, MP Recovered While Healing +1]
Hollow for RNG and solo RDM? [DEX +2, Accuracy +3, Ranged Accuracy +3, Sword Enhancement Spell Damage +3]
Static for BLM, but will rarely use? [MND +2, Magic Defense Bonus +2, Bonus Damage Added To Magic Burst]

I also have Suppa, Brutal, Loqua, Fenrir's, Moldavite...

Magnetic sounds nice, but it looks a lot like that Assault earring with MP+15 hMP+1.

[drwaffles]

MP+20 isn't worth mentioning, Spell Interruption Rate Down is a fairly useless stat, hMP+1 can be found on a 40k Antivenom Earring and Conserve MP +5 is pretty pathetic. It certainly sounds nice with all those fancy-looking stats floating around on the description, but once you break it down it's really nothing to get excited about.

[Khajit]

i meant the other way around silly. So that instead of people asking the same question over and over they could just check the item page and see that x is better than y unless you have z haste/acc/atk. I considered doing it but all the work was done by other people so i'd be "stealing" their work if i posted a summary of their findings on the wiki and couldn't remember their names.

[Miraun]

Yeah, I originally posted in that thread hoping Ruke would do some numbers on Aurum, but he never got around to it (or refuted it, but I know he gets busy!) lol.

Here's how I see the non 6-hit armors, personally:
-Homam body possibly only having 1% TA (it's in another thread atm), I imagine it would skew Rukes numbers a bit (not to mention be acc overkill for a lot of drgs, when they could use att/str instead). Still, I'd use this on jumps, several HNMs, and THF mobs.
-Ares is great, except it basically removes a true /sam 6-hit. For anything /sam I see Askar/Aurum as a better choice, but for any other sub it would be a no-brainer (especially drg/mage... just beautiful).

My main argument for Aurum is that it's the only 6-hit armor that still enables you to gear for crits and provides accuracy (I currently melee in around +30dex and it makes a notable difference, hopefully more once askar helm finally drops!).

In any case, it's always "shit's situational," but from what I understand about how delay reduction/haste works it's going to provide more benefits when stacked than when DA is stacked. I would love to see someone crunch numbers comparing all of these armors though, especially Askar/Pole Grip vs Aurum/Sword Strap. For me though, the question of sword vs pole for aurum has been answered though, and that was my true "what's better" question


EDIT: We totally did ALREADY TALK ABOUT THIS :O lol. Our opinions remain the same, and our questions unanswered!

Seriously though, I just want one of those awesome excel files Ruke uses, I'll even plug the stuff in myself!

lol... We can keep discussing this through PMs... because I think we should net this out a little more and come to a consensus!

[Naash]

i meant the other way around silly. So that instead of people asking the same question over and over they could just check the item page and see that x is better than y unless you have z haste/acc/atk. I considered doing it but all the work was done by other people so i'd be "stealing" their work if i posted a summary of their findings on the wiki and couldn't remember their names.

Oh, I misunderstood your post.
I guess you could mention in the notes sentences like, "Item A is considered a valid next for people who cannot afford/don't have Item B, although the drawbackis that..." or something.

[Drunkenmonk]

ares or heca body for drakesbane?
currently use ares, wondering if i should make heca body a priority
0 polearm merits ;/

thalasocrat/pole/tiphia
heca/gorget/pixie/brutal
?/heca/rajas/flame
foragers/potent/aurum/heca

[Callisto]

I would take Heca or Aurum over Ares' for Drakesbane.

[seph32]

Anyone parsed pole grip vs brave grip yet?
I did some quick tests on brave grip it seemed kinda meh on damage increase. I don't own a parser myself so curious if anyone has parsed this.

[Wolfknight]

ares or heca body for drakesbane?
currently use ares, wondering if i should make heca body a priority
0 polearm merits ;/

thalasocrat/pole/tiphia
heca/gorget/pixie/brutal
?/heca/rajas/flame
foragers/potent/aurum/heca

I'd say ares + acc ring instead of flame should be fine and person about brave grip with single bard I parsed avg of 1355 drakesbane with it, I have yet to try it with pole, but it seemed good to me.

[Vyerz]

Terror Shield Vs. Kaiser / Koenig Shield for Pld

Terror: More emnity, More Hp, Same block rate

Koenig / Kaiser: More Vit, Beast killer effect.

-> Go

Edit: What about the wivre shield? 5 emnity and the +1 is 6 emnity, same block rate.
Is this just a purple paladin discussion? Do people choose the Koenig shield because of the looks? Or is there something about it that makes it much better than these sheilds?

[Greatguardian]

In most cases, Koenig Shield is just cheaper and easier to find than Terror Shield. AH on Cerberus has only 9 being sold, ever, for about 1.5M while Koenig is a steady 140k and rather abundant. Terror shield is better than Koenig though, hands down.

As for Wivre, it really depends on what you're going to be doing most often. It's an excellent kiting shield, since you don't proc shield while running away, and it has such a high Enmity+ score. However, since the damage mitigated by shield procs is directly dependent on both the Size of a shield, and the Defense of the shield, Wivre starts to lose points when you're straight tanking mobs that are going to be hitting you a lot (things like Byakko, or Kim, with high DA/TA rates). In most groups, a good stun order can take care of things, but when you're low-manning and suddenly taking that much more damage per swing during shield procs, you start running into trouble.

I personally only own my Koenig for the moment, since I was recently hacked and had to start completely over on AH-able gear. However it would be a solid investment for me to get a Wivre shield once I start doing activities like ZNM more often and find myself kiting again. For the moment, I have far too much to buy to warrant spending 1,350,000g on Enmity+1. But for a player who's past that point and is working on pure gear optimization, Terror is definitely worth picking up.

Oh, almost forgot, use Koenig /War cuz CHR helps voke.

[Ophannus]

zahak mail >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all for drakesbane

[Wulfgang]

For 37 THF - /WAR versus /NIN?

The pulling argument is null as nothing you typically fight in this range has movement speed and anyone who can't avoid getting hit while using a Crossbow from 25.0 is fail. Also, until 50, there is no DW bonus. I feel like I always see /NIN at this level and it just doesn't make sense to me.

Leaning towards WAR, but open to counter-suggestions.