Shura Haidate vs. Byakko's Haidate for NIN WS.

[ringthree]

In my opinion you can forget the accuracy part of it, since most ninjas including myself use sushi (and the acc values on both pieces are essentially the same anyway) unless you're on birds or south thickets; it basically boils down to 5 STR vs 15 DEX. In a straight comparison yes, STR works better. But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all) and contributes to its modifier I always considered Byakko Haidate the clear choice. If you feel the need to run the numbers and prove it that's fine, but I don't think anyone else feels the need to.

I don't know, numbers are fun to play with, and I like checking if conventional wisdom is really true. If people don't feel the need to do this then they don't have to.

As per your comments about the WS, the fact that Byakko's Haidate has more DEX is independent of the Crit Hit TP modifier. The only thing it would do is potentially increase universal Crit Hits caused by more more DEX, which, as discussed elsewhere, is likely some kind of tiered improvement so it is questionable if even 15 DEX will make a difference. The important thing to point out here is that there is nothing special about Blade: Jin where more DEX would increase the rate of Crit Hits over any other WS. The only thing that will definitively increase the rate of Crit Hits specifically for Blade: Jin is TP, which appears to be a linear increase from 0% at 100TP, to 20% at 200TP, to 40% at 300TP. It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

[Sidanoir]

It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?
I think everyone that has commented on the DEX and its relationship to crit has claimed that it will up your base chance...not that it would make a 85 damage crit into a 90 damage crit...

[ringthree]

And if you haven't been told enough in this thread, Haidate is the clear winner. ^.^

Yeah, I pretty much got that (pretty much already believed that because I posted this after writing my own conclusion in that part of my blog today: http://ringthree.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog-post.html [That was for you Skur! ~.^]), but not knowing why you are correct about something is just as bad being wrong, its just a lucky guess at that point.

I still think that there is some kind of grammatical error in VZX's calculations on Shura, or I am just not getting it. Could someone maybe break that down for me a little?

[Mahonri]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=2&t=17450

page 4, geno posts 3 parse results with upgrades to dex each time, increasing the crit% each time. Dex lolmodding Jin and raising crits is clearly win.








Edit: fixed link

[ringthree]

It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?
I think everyone that has commented on the DEX and its relationship to crit has claimed that it will up your base chance...not that it would make a 85 damage crit into a 90 damage crit...

I was specifically responding to Cephius when they said:

But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all)

which seems to be a clear indication that they believe that more DEX has some kind of effect on Jin itself or Crit Hit WS's in general beyond the standard increase in base Crit Hit rate.

[LinktheDeme]

by this thread being made i assume the whats better thread is going to die pretty fast ;3

[Carnusty]

In my opinion you can forget the accuracy part of it, since most ninjas including myself use sushi (and the acc values on both pieces are essentially the same anyway) unless you're on birds or south thickets; it basically boils down to 5 STR vs 15 DEX. In a straight comparison yes, STR works better. But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all) and contributes to its modifier I always considered Byakko Haidate the clear choice. If you feel the need to run the numbers and prove it that's fine, but I don't think anyone else feels the need to.

I don't know, numbers are fun to play with, and I like checking if conventional wisdom is really true. If people don't feel the need to do this then they don't have to.

As per your comments about the WS, the fact that Byakko's Haidate has more DEX is independent of the Crit Hit TP modifier. The only thing it would do is potentially increase universal Crit Hits caused by more more DEX, which, as discussed elsewhere, is likely some kind of tiered improvement so it is questionable if even 15 DEX will make a difference. The important thing to point out here is that there is nothing special about Blade: Jin where more DEX would increase the rate of Crit Hits over any other WS. The only thing that will definitively increase the rate of Crit Hits specifically for Blade: Jin is TP, which appears to be a linear increase from 0% at 100TP, to 20% at 200TP, to 40% at 300TP. It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

The problem with Blade: Jin's TP Mod is that no one (That I know anyways) saves TP to use it, because it's basically just a "Chance" to critical hit.

The biggest factors in Jin's damage are Crit hits, Double Attacks, and Bards, so boosting any/all modifiers will just enhance the damage, not make it. Talking about the TP Critical mod doesn't factor into the equation because if you save TP after 100%, you're wasting TP.

Since it doesn't really boil down to Crit chance or anything, the arguement is really in WSC vs. fSTR, and like VZX posted, 15DEX will make a LARGE improvement over 5 STR.

NINJEDIT

Basically VZX's post stated this:

5 STR will boost your fSTR by like 1, increasing your weapon dmg by 1~
5 STR will boost your WSC by about 1.something, so combined for Shura would be like 2-3~ish
(on average)

15 DEX wil boost your WSC by around 3-4~ or something (Not scrolling back up nyarrr),

so

2-3~ish dmg boost vs. 3-4~ish dmg boost, and possibility to break a DEX tier. Your choice.

[ringthree]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=2&t=17450

page 4, geno posts 3 parse results with upgrades to dex each time, increasing the crit% each time. Dex lolmodding Jin and raising crits is clearly win.

And geno concludes that:

The difference of 13 DEX between the control gearset, and gearset #2 really made no noticeable gains. But then only 9 DEX is added between that and gearset #3, and a massive 8+% increase in Crit% comes out. This definitely supports a tier theory.

Which supports what I was saying before about there being a tiered improvement in Crit Hits from using more DEX, and geno had to already adjust some of his gear to get the second gearset, which did not have a noticeable gain in Crits, and further had to change his gear to get to the one that did have a substantial increase in Crits. Since I am not aiming this discussion at changing all of my gear and just wanted to compare Shura and Byakko's Haidates, for the Crit Hit from DEX to be relevant you would have to lose Crit Hits by taking off the Byakko's and replacing them with Shura. As geno had to increase the amount of DEX he was using substantially over a normal set up this does not appear to be relevant. Also since there appears to be a base Crit Hit rate something close to what geno got in his first test, removing DEX should have no effect on that base Crit Hit rate.

[Xavier]

This would be a lot more interesting if Shura haidate had +15 str.

[Cephius]

It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?
I think everyone that has commented on the DEX and its relationship to crit has claimed that it will up your base chance...not that it would make a 85 damage crit into a 90 damage crit...

I was specifically responding to Cephius when they said:

But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all)

which seems to be a clear indication that they believe that more DEX has some kind of effect on Jin itself or Crit Hit WS's in general beyond the standard increase in base Crit Hit rate.

When I said "also", I was referring to the fact that DEX has a positive effect on your accuracy as well.

[ringthree]

In my opinion you can forget the accuracy part of it, since most ninjas including myself use sushi (and the acc values on both pieces are essentially the same anyway) unless you're on birds or south thickets; it basically boils down to 5 STR vs 15 DEX. In a straight comparison yes, STR works better. But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all) and contributes to its modifier I always considered Byakko Haidate the clear choice. If you feel the need to run the numbers and prove it that's fine, but I don't think anyone else feels the need to.

I don't know, numbers are fun to play with, and I like checking if conventional wisdom is really true. If people don't feel the need to do this then they don't have to.

As per your comments about the WS, the fact that Byakko's Haidate has more DEX is independent of the Crit Hit TP modifier. The only thing it would do is potentially increase universal Crit Hits caused by more more DEX, which, as discussed elsewhere, is likely some kind of tiered improvement so it is questionable if even 15 DEX will make a difference. The important thing to point out here is that there is nothing special about Blade: Jin where more DEX would increase the rate of Crit Hits over any other WS. The only thing that will definitively increase the rate of Crit Hits specifically for Blade: Jin is TP, which appears to be a linear increase from 0% at 100TP, to 20% at 200TP, to 40% at 300TP. It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

The problem with Blade: Jin's TP Mod is that no one (That I know anyways) saves TP to use it, because it's basically just a "Chance" to critical hit.

The biggest factors in Jin's damage are Crit hits, Double Attacks, and Bards, so boosting any/all modifiers will just enhance the damage, not make it. Talking about the TP Critical mod doesn't factor into the equation because if you save TP after 100%, you're wasting TP.

Since it doesn't really boil down to Crit chance or anything, the arguement is really in WSC vs. fSTR, and like VZX posted, 15DEX will make a LARGE improvement over 5 STR.

NINJEDIT

Basically VZX's post stated this:

5 STR will boost your fSTR by like 1, increasing your weapon dmg by 1~
5 STR will boost your WSC by about 1.something, so combined for Shura would be like 2-3~ish
(on average)

15 DEX wil boost your WSC by around 3-4~ or something (Not scrolling back up nyarrr),

so

2-3~ish dmg boost vs. 3-4~ish dmg boost, and possibility to break a DEX tier. Your choice.

I totally agree with everything you are saying about TP, no one worries about that, I was just illustrating that it was an independent factor that the Byakko's Haidate doesn't effect. I also totally agree that the real difference is WSC bonus from Byakko's vs. fSTR + WSC bonus from Shura.

This is what VZX said:

5 STR = fSTR+0.833~1.25 (read: 16.6% of the time it adds nothing, 83.3% of the time it adds 1 WSC
to 25% of the time it adds 2 fSTR, 75% of the time it adds 1 WSC)

And this is also where I become confused. The first line stops at "...adds 1 WSC" and the second line starts at "to 25% of the time..." which, and yes I will admit to being a big nerd here, just doesn't make sense. It appears that something has been left out, or some kind of accidental edit has occurred, either something between those two quotes OR the WSC at the very end was actually supposed to be fSTR. ANYWAY, VZX basically says that Byakko's Haidate adds 3.735 to the base damage of Jin or 3~4 increase in base damage, while Shura adds? He states fSTR+0.833~1.25(assumed WSC), but does not explicitly state the bonus to fSTR, but I can glean that he meant that its 1.25 from the statement in his in the parenthesis. So for Shura the addition to base damage would be 2.083, which would clearly favor Byakko's Haidate. Like I said the grammar problems in VZX's statement sent me for a loop, and since I want to make sure I am getting this right I didn't want to make any assumptions about something I do not fully understand (but then I did it anyway, LOL).

As I said in a previous post, since the additional DEX from Byakko's Haidate is unlikely to raise your Crit Hit tier by itself, as per geno's post, then removing wouldn't have a negative effect (meaning you can't go below your base Crit Hit tier), so that is removed from the equation. (Honestly, I think there is just as good of a possibility that it may not be tiered but may be linear and more DEX is better for Crit Hit rate in general, but that just distracts from what I was aiming at here, and is largely an intangible benefit if it can't be verified).

So if I read VZX correctly, Byakko's Haidate is a 3.735 increase to base damage, and Shura is a 2.083 increase to base damage, right?

[ringthree]

It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?
I think everyone that has commented on the DEX and its relationship to crit has claimed that it will up your base chance...not that it would make a 85 damage crit into a 90 damage crit...

I was specifically responding to Cephius when they said:

But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all)

which seems to be a clear indication that they believe that more DEX has some kind of effect on Jin itself or Crit Hit WS's in general beyond the standard increase in base Crit Hit rate.

When I said "also", I was referring to the fact that DEX has a positive effect on your accuracy as well.

Ummm... no. You were clearly talking about "increasing the chance your jins critical" (your words), and if you were talking about accuracy your statement would make even LESS sense because you would then be talking about how accuracy increases the chance of jins critical. So, what are you trying to say?

[Carnusty]

This is what VZX said:

5 STR = fSTR+0.833~1.25 (read: 16.6% of the time it adds nothing, 83.3% of the time it adds 1 WSC
to 25% of the time it adds 2 fSTR, 75% of the time it adds 1 WSC)

And this is also where I become confused. The first line stops at "...adds 1 WSC" and the second line starts at "to 25% of the time..." which, and yes I will admit to being a big nerd here, just doesn't make sense. It appears that something has been left out, or some kind of accidental edit has occurred, either something between those two quotes OR the WSC at the very end was actually supposed to be fSTR. ANYWAY, VZX basically says that Byakko's Haidate adds 3.735 to the base damage of Jin or 3~4 increase in base damage, while Shura adds?

His quoted bit basically states (He didn't add it up basically) That you'll have 1.83-3.25 max damage boost with the 5 STR on Shura. (Basically averaged to somewhere a little over 2, which I think you did the math over)

So if I read VZX correctly, Byakko's Haidate is a 3.735 increase to base damage, and Shura is a 2.083 increase to base damage, right?

Those are averages, but basically that's about right. At least, that's what I understood of it anyways.

[Cephius]

It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?
I think everyone that has commented on the DEX and its relationship to crit has claimed that it will up your base chance...not that it would make a 85 damage crit into a 90 damage crit...

I was specifically responding to Cephius when they said:

But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all)

which seems to be a clear indication that they believe that more DEX has some kind of effect on Jin itself or Crit Hit WS's in general beyond the standard increase in base Crit Hit rate.

When I said "also", I was referring to the fact that DEX has a positive effect on your accuracy as well.

Ummm... no. You were clearly talking about "increasing the chance your jins critical" (your words), and if you were talking about accuracy your statement would make even LESS sense because you would then be talking about how accuracy increases the chance of jins critical. So, what are you trying to say?

I didnt think I was so unclear, but I was saying that DEX does increase your increase your chances to critical (by breaking the next tier) and has the side effect of increasing your native accuracy as well. I'll try to phrase it better next time so a 2 year old could understand it..

[VZX]

damn, this many posts already >.>

I made a mistake actually, but doesn't change much what the conclusion is.

I didn't take into account STR+5 as 30% STR modifier
If I do, then
5*.3*.83 = 1.245 base damage up
so shura gives 1.245 + 0.833~1.25 = 2.078 ~ 2.495 base damage up on average

still doesn't beat haidate 3.735 base damage up on average

EDIT: ringthree, you got me

[ringthree]

[quote=Cephius]

It is a misconception that DEX (outside of the potential universal tiered increase in Crit Hits and secondary modifiers) does anything to improve the amount or damage of the Crit Hits in any Blade: Jin.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?
I think everyone that has commented on the DEX and its relationship to crit has claimed that it will up your base chance...not that it would make a 85 damage crit into a 90 damage crit...

I was specifically responding to Cephius when they said:

But since its so much DEX that also in this case increases the chance your jins critical (it is a crit based WS after all)

which seems to be a clear indication that they believe that more DEX has some kind of effect on Jin itself or Crit Hit WS's in general beyond the standard increase in base Crit Hit rate.

When I said "also", I was referring to the fact that DEX has a positive effect on your accuracy as well.

Ummm... no. You were clearly talking about "increasing the chance your jins critical" (your words), and if you were talking about accuracy your statement would make even LESS sense because you would then be talking about how accuracy increases the chance of jins critical. So, what are you trying to say?

I didnt think I was so unclear, but I was saying that DEX does increase your increase your chances to critical (by breaking the next tier) and has the side effect of increasing your native accuracy as well. I'll try to phrase it better next time so a 2 year old could understand it..[/quote:70a1e]

Three things. One, as I stated like 8 times already, I highly doubt it will have any effect on Crit Hit tiers either way, as per the geno tests. Two, it wouldn't effect your accuracy by more than .5 because of the 7 Accuracy on Shura. Three, how about next time you work on human-level comprehension.

[ringthree]

damn, this many posts already >.>

I made a mistake actually, but doesn't change much what the conclusion is.

I didn't take into account STR+5 as 30% STR modifier
If I do, then
5*.3*.83 = 1.245 base damage up
so shura gives 1.245 + 0.833~1.25 = 2.078 ~ 2.495 base damage up on average

still doesn't beat haidate 3.735 base damage up on average

EDIT: ringthree, you got me

I knew something was missing! Thank you for the information, this is exactly what I was looking for!