Abortion Penalty

[Charla]

skipped the last page, it's too hard to keep up with this thread at work.

Devek: you seem to be of the opinion that a "family type" would be better able to adress this issue, because apparently the rest of us just don't "understand". I think it's the other way around. Someone with an emotional investment in an issue is therefore less able to think about the issue objectively. That's just fine when you're discussing your own (very obviously illogical) stance regarding your own offspring, but to me this issue is a matter of the good of the population. The greatest good for the greatest number can be served by preventing people from being born into bad lives.

Now, that being said, I don't disagree with your actual solution. If the father is present and verifiably willing and capable of taking care of his child by himself, that should be taken into account. How to enact and/or enforce such a thing is another matter, but that can be worked out if and when we as a nation reach an agreement on the more basic issues that we as a forum have spent the last several pages "discussing".

As for the chromosome count, that was my original point. Genetics alone cannot decide if an organism is human or not.

[-Omni]

Genetics alone cannot decide if an organism is human or not.

Exhibit A
http://www.tarfumes.com/political/dick-cheney-angry.jpg

[aurik]

Genetics alone cannot decide if an organism is human or not.

Exhibit A
http://www.tarfumes.com/political/dick-cheney-angry.jpg

holy shit I lol'd

[Fuuko]

No, it has a dependency on a mother, not necessarily the specific biological mother.

Ah so then when its small enough to be placed in any female its human then? After all, all it needs is a mother.

[Ryko]

I'm pretty sure he means when one's existence does not directly continue nor end by the presence of one specific human being (as in, anyone could functionally fill the same role should they choose to) then it is a human.

[-Omni]

No, it has a dependency on a mother, not necessarily the specific biological mother.

Ah so then when its small enough to be placed in any female its human then? After all, all it needs is a mother.

The world needs more of this:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/...QL._SS500_.jpg

[Xavier]

No, it has a dependency on a mother, not necessarily the specific biological mother.

Ah so then when its small enough to be placed in any female its human then? After all, all it needs is a mother.

Do you really not understand the difference between needing to absorb the nutrients in a hosts body for survival vs. supervision so you don't crawl into a ditch and die?

[Khamsin]

And to Divsor, yes I think they should have jail time. But more to the point your entire point is flawed you can think things are a crime and not demand that people spend time in jail. How many crimes in the US only have a fine?

So how much should we fine women who get abortions?

In other words, how much is a baby worth in terms of money?

Holy slippery slope, Batman!

The value of a baby is $______.__ (insert average cost of raising a child from birth until average age they become an independant, including college tuition and such, then tack on the average amount spent by parents taking their kids to lunch or buying them drinks as they get older until the average age the parents die).

A fine like that could work. Afterall, look at some of the RIAA fines for piracy, or FCC fines for not switching to the cable card for set-top boxes. A fine of that amount isn't any more far fetched than others that exist. Plus, think of the income for the government, considering the sheer number of women who do get abortions (assuming they all get caught, including the ones who did it with a coat hanger).

[Weltall]

While it is a valid point, it relies on what could be described as the semantic of legality. Granted it's not murder as stated by the law, or even by the dictionary, but one should assume that when the variable presented is legality that someone calling it as murder is using it in a more abstract way to label the killing of something that most would say is defenseless. No one's really going to buy that "it's not murder because it's not illegal".

It is definitely not murder if it's explicity legal. Example: you're in your home and someone breaks in and waves a gun in your face. Being a real-life ninja you stab him with a sharpened spoon and he dies. Now, did you murder the intruder? Or did you kill the intruder?

This happens all the time where I live, and it is explicitly legal to kill a person in such a case. I think state laws differ here though, but where I live you can definitely kill a home intruder.

In Ohio you can kill anybody that even steps foot on your property. A recent example was this girl that was dared to ding-dong-ditch a suspected "haunted house". Apparently the owner didn't appreciate it much and fired shots at her while she was in her car, killing her. If she was still in the yard it'd be legal, but the shooter is facing 19 years in prison. Crazy to think that the only thing separating guilty from innocent in this case was a curb. Aaaaaaaaaand that's pretty much why I hate politics and government!

Why the fuck do you hate government? Our society is setup to where you can get the laws in your state changed if you really want to. Get out and lobby/protest, pass out fliers, join a political campaign to get someone in office that agrees with you and get it changed. Thats the beauty of government. If the majority want it changed, elect someone that shares the opinion and get it changed. If not, you're too lazy to even be complaining.

[-Omni]

And to Divsor, yes I think they should have jail time. But more to the point your entire point is flawed you can think things are a crime and not demand that people spend time in jail. How many crimes in the US only have a fine?

So how much should we fine women who get abortions?

In other words, how much is a baby worth in terms of money?

Holy slippery slope, Batman!

The value of a baby is $______.__ (insert average cost of raising a child from birth until average age they become an independant, including college tuition and such, then tack on the average amount spent by parents taking their kids to lunch or buying them drinks as they get older until the average age the parents die).

A fine like that could work. Afterall, look at some of the RIAA fines for piracy, or FCC fines for not switching to the cable card for set-top boxes. A fine of that amount isn't any more far fetched than others that exist. Plus, think of the income for the government, considering the sheer number of women who do get abortions (assuming they all get caught, including the ones who did it with a coat hanger).

Also, consider the repercussions of placing a price on human life.

[Devek]

No, it has a dependency on a mother, not necessarily the specific biological mother.

Ah so then when its small enough to be placed in any female its human then? After all, all it needs is a mother.

Actually with modern scientific advances a baby can survive outside the womb sometimes at 21(thats a little after 5 months) weeks and as time goes on that will just get shorter until a fetus can be grown 100% outside of a female. What happens then?

Further a baby taken to full term still can't survive without... someone to give it attention at least. I thought Hitler's scientists proved this or was that an urban myth? Even so it is still unable to feed itself so its still a parasite by some definitions.

Might as well be legal to kill kids until they are old enough to get a job and pay their own way.

EDIT: Either way, if you want to legally set it in stone that abortion is legal if the kid can't survive without its specific mother I am ok with that. Science will eventually win one for the Christians

[Fuuko]

I'm pretty sure he means when one's existence does not directly continue nor end by the presence of one specific human being (as in, anyone could functionally fill the same role should they choose to) then it is a mother.

He is arguing semantics. Everything you just said is true of a embryo that is ready to be implanted in its mother, IE any willing human. It would then by his logic stop being a human, since we lack the technical ability to switch the person. Thats how silly the whole parasitic relationship argument is.

edit* word switch

[-Omni]

No, it has a dependency on a mother, not necessarily the specific biological mother.

Ah so then when its small enough to be placed in any female its human then? After all, all it needs is a mother.

Actually with modern scientific advances a baby can survive outside the womb sometimes at 21(thats a little after 5 months) weeks and as time goes on that will just get shorter until a fetus can be grown 100% outside of a female. What happens then?

Remember that part in the Matrix where the machines were harvesting human life?

Yeah, that.

[aurik]

And to Divsor, yes I think they should have jail time. But more to the point your entire point is flawed you can think things are a crime and not demand that people spend time in jail. How many crimes in the US only have a fine?

So how much should we fine women who get abortions?

In other words, how much is a baby worth in terms of money?

Holy slippery slope, Batman!

The value of a baby is $______.__ (insert average cost of raising a child from birth until average age they become an independant, including college tuition and such, then tack on the average amount spent by parents taking their kids to lunch or buying them drinks as they get older until the average age the parents die).

A fine like that could work. Afterall, look at some of the RIAA fines for piracy, or FCC fines for not switching to the cable card for set-top boxes. A fine of that amount isn't any more far fetched than others that exist. Plus, think of the income for the government, considering the sheer number of women who do get abortions (assuming they all get caught, including the ones who did it with a coat hanger).

So does the cost of killing a child go down as it gets older? I mean, if you kill your 17-years-and-364-days old, you've already fronted a lot of the cost of raising it, so you shouldn't be charged much, right?

[Ryko]

I'm pretty sure he means when one's existence does not directly continue nor end by the presence of one specific human being (as in, anyone could functionally fill the same role should they choose to) then it is a mother.

He is arguing semantics. Everything you just said is true of a embryo that is ready to be implanted in its mother, IE any willing human. It would then by his logic stop being a human, since we lack the technical ability to switch the person. Thats how silly the whole parasitic relationship argument is.

edit* word switch

Actually he wasn't arguing semantics at all, you just failed to grasp the functional difference in what he was stating.

[Devek]

It is a bad idea to put a price on life.. just stop it before you get steamrolled by logic.

[-Omni]

And to Divsor, yes I think they should have jail time. But more to the point your entire point is flawed you can think things are a crime and not demand that people spend time in jail. How many crimes in the US only have a fine?

So how much should we fine women who get abortions?

In other words, how much is a baby worth in terms of money?

Holy slippery slope, Batman!

The value of a baby is $______.__ (insert average cost of raising a child from birth until average age they become an independant, including college tuition and such, then tack on the average amount spent by parents taking their kids to lunch or buying them drinks as they get older until the average age the parents die).

A fine like that could work. Afterall, look at some of the RIAA fines for piracy, or FCC fines for not switching to the cable card for set-top boxes. A fine of that amount isn't any more far fetched than others that exist. Plus, think of the income for the government, considering the sheer number of women who do get abortions (assuming they all get caught, including the ones who did it with a coat hanger).

So does the cost of killing a child go down as it gets older? I mean, if you kill your 17-years-and-364-days old, you've already fronted a lot of the cost of raising it, so you shouldn't be charged much, right?

NO, BECAUSE KILLING BABIES AND KILLING PEOPLE ARE THE SAME AND SHOULD HAVE DIFFERENT PUNISH- OH SHIT WAIT FAULTY LOGIC WHAT?

[Khamsin]

[quote=-Omni]

And to Divsor, yes I think they should have jail time. But more to the point your entire point is flawed you can think things are a crime and not demand that people spend time in jail. How many crimes in the US only have a fine?

So how much should we fine women who get abortions?

In other words, how much is a baby worth in terms of money?

Holy slippery slope, Batman!

The value of a baby is $______.__ (insert average cost of raising a child from birth until average age they become an independant, including college tuition and such, then tack on the average amount spent by parents taking their kids to lunch or buying them drinks as they get older until the average age the parents die).

A fine like that could work. Afterall, look at some of the RIAA fines for piracy, or FCC fines for not switching to the cable card for set-top boxes. A fine of that amount isn't any more far fetched than others that exist. Plus, think of the income for the government, considering the sheer number of women who do get abortions (assuming they all get caught, including the ones who did it with a coat hanger).

Also, consider the repercussions of placing a price on human life.[/quote:0daab]

Prices are already placed on human lives.

Local governments do it (how much is a city/county/state willing to spend to improve a road? How many accidents must there be before any work is done?). I have personal knowledge of this, given my line of work. It depends on how much they tend to lose from lawsuits after an accident weighed against the cost of the improvements, among other factors.

The military does it, too.

Insurance companies do it.

The justice system does it, as well.

A lot of entities do it. In this world, you have to. We can't afford to spend infinite resources on just one life. So naturally, there has to be a finite value.

[Fuuko]

No, it has a dependency on a mother, not necessarily the specific biological mother.

Ah so then when its small enough to be placed in any female its human then? After all, all it needs is a mother.

Do you really not understand the difference between needing to absorb the nutrients in a hosts body for survival vs. supervision so you don't crawl into a ditch and die?

Right because a newborn human simply needs supervision, its not like it needs someone to feed it. Only technology even allows us to use formula, else it would have to what was it, oh yes "absorb the nutrients in a hosts body for survival." Those of us that can use logic call this breast feeding.

[aurik]

EDIT: Either way, if you want to legally set it in stone that abortion is legal if the kid can't survive without its specific mother I am ok with that. Science will eventually win one for the Christians

When we have the technology to non-destructively transplant fetuses, I may agree with you. However, I have to red-flag your use of the word "Christian".