Abortion Penalty

[Maguspk]

Because we have a right to life. When you kill someone you are taking something important to them, their very existence.

Why do we have a right to such a thing? How does a human get that right? Why can you lose that right (I'm assuming you're fine with killing Hitler)? What makes humans deserve such a right and not animals?

PS I'm not making arguements, I'm just trying to get you to delve deeper into your own moral grounds and clarify for yourself.

Am I the only who gets pissed off seing arguments like these?

It's so easy to sit back and argue this point because it's an unwritten right, it's only philosophically intact. Everyone has a right to life, it's why abortion is such a hot topic to begin with, it's why we have laws in place to protect the lives of individuals.

As for an animal's "right to live", if you want to place yourself on the same pedestal as a pig or a cow then be my guest. That's your choice. As for the rest of the logical world, we'll put ourselves higher considering we're the top predator on the planet and we're easily the most intelligent by our own definition. As a result we have these weird rules which we all abide by, a collective conscious, which governs the way we interact with each other and how we choose to deal with different problems.

[Devek]

Circular definition for the lose. Define what it means to be alive. Again, I assert that a brain must exist.

There is nothing circular about it at all. A unique human with its unique DNA is a person. The semen making the sock all crusty on the floor by my bed will never grow up to be a person with a family but the moment that semen has joined with an embryo it will. A fetus having a brain is a factor of time and nothing else.

If I could go back and time and abort you before you had a brain would you be ok with that since you were not "alive"?

This would be totally different if pregnancy was something forced on women and if children were horrible poxes on all of us. Children are wonderful and none have been born on accident, they were the direct result of sex.

Fuck "women's choice", if a woman is trying to abort my child I will do whatever it takes to protect that life and allow it to live and someday that person will thank me for it.

[Ace-o-fire]

Think about it this way.

When your pro-choice your sending the babies to Jesus faster!

[Maguspk]

Circular definition for the lose. Define what it means to be alive. Again, I assert that a brain must exist.

Fuck "women's choice", if a woman is trying to abort my child I will do whatever it takes to protect that life and allow it to live and someday that person will thank me for it.

I don't know why but I feel the same way about most abortion topics lol. It's not the logical viewpoint, because it's potential not actual worth which defines whether or not we "deem" the child/potential child fit to live. Either way I just can't bear the thought of ending the potential something like a human embryo has.

[Tonko]

So glad I don't have to worry about this shit.

Oh, and Divisortheory's argument is indeed, quite cyclical, and I believe is making him dizzy.

[divisortheory]

Circular definition for the lose. Define what it means to be alive. Again, I assert that a brain must exist.

There is nothing circular about it at all. A unique human with its unique DNA is a person.

And I asked you to define what it means to be human, and part of your definition was being "alive". So define what it means to be alive without using the word "human". Until you do that your definition is circular. In the quote directly above, you're defining a "person" using the word "human". That's not circular, that's just a tautology. You'll have to do better than that.

If I could go back and time and abort you before you had a brain would you be ok with that since you were not "alive"?

How about going back even further to the point that my parents hadn't even had sex yet, then prevent them from having the sex that would have resulted in the pregnancy that resulted in my birth? Would that be ok?

Would I be ok with that is a stupid question since of course I wouldn't be ok with it, I wouldn't even exist to be ok with it. I do, however, think that going back to before a fetus had a brain and getting an abortion has the same ethical ramifications as going back to before two parents had had sex in the first place and preventing them from having sex.

Either way I just can't bear the thought of ending the potential something like a human embryo has.

I can't bear the thought of ending the potential an unfertilized sperm and egg have. I'm going to start lobbying for criminalizing the action of not having sex.

[miokomioko]

Personally, I wouldn't consider an organism "alive" until it can survive outside the womb without an umbillical cord. The fetii we are discussing are parasites in every sense of the word, mainly because of the status of the host not wanting it.

Blame our species' primal urge to procreate, and on top of that, sex feeling so good (natural positive reinforcement). We're so smart, we realized we can have that amazing feeling without the burden of raising children and advancing the human race, we're that selfish. But at least we are aware of the negative effects of overpopulation as we observe it in the natural ebb and flow of animal population levels as they boom and starve.

This is all a natural order of things, as artificial as it appears...

[divisortheory]

Personally, I wouldn't consider an organism "alive" until it can survive outside the womb without an umbillical cord. The fetii we are discussing are parasites in every sense of the word, mainly because of the status of the host not wanting it.

I actually haven't pinpointed the precise time at which point I think abortion is murder. For me personally though, a lower bound is the time that a brain forms and an upper bound is around the third trimester.

Here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say that China's population grew to about 5 billion (certainly not unreasonable given 100-200 years). China then started imposing state-mandated abortions for everyone, no exceptions, to last a period of 15 years. Would pro-lifers argue that this is genocide? If so, is it genocide worthy of starting a war over like, for example, Darfur?

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Just like most of life's answers, there is no "right" or "wrong" response.

I find it incredibly irresponsible to fuck without birth control or a condom and just have the mentality you can kill off what you created because you were horny as shit and couldn't just wait.

But, on the other hand, if a young woman is raped or taken advantage of by some asswipe and becomes pregnant, I feel she has the right to murder a potential life for the sake of hers.

I previously shared the opinion that it's murder no matter the situation, but, a lot of times, the situation is that the mother can't comfortably provide an "ideal" life for her and her child. IMO, better to let one life live comfortably than for two to suffer miserably.

I don't know, I feel the value put on human life is far exaggerated. One could argue we're intelligent, emotional, etc., but any form of life bound to death is as minuscule as the rest.

[Enkidu]

It should be this easy:

If you were raped, it's your choice. Nobody deserves to be raped and then carry around that mans baby for 9 months.

If the child will be born with severe mental or physical conditions, then it's your choice. Scoff about it all you like, but people with these conditions are extremely hard to care for and can basically ruin somebodies life.

If you weren't raped, it's your fault. Make him wear a condom next time or take the pill...
-if there is an adoptee, you have the baby.
-if there is not an adoptee, you have a choice.

Adoptee's, of course, would need to be pre-screened and screened during the womens pregnancy to make sure they will be able to care for the child. If the adoptee's reneg during the pregnancy and the baby is left without a home, the adoptee's are forced into paying child support for the child in question. The child would then either go to the mother (maybe with the child support, from both the adoptee's and the father, she could care for the baby) or to another home.

The father of the child would pay child support regardless, even if the child is adopted. If the woman can go through 9 months of pregnancy, you can go through 18 years of a reduced check.

Why does it have to be pro-choice or pro-life? Middle ground always makes more sense.

[Devek]

I don't know why but I feel the same way about most abortion topics lol. It's not the logical viewpoint, because it's potential not actual worth which defines whether or not we "deem" the child/potential child fit to live. Either way I just can't bear the thought of ending the potential something like a human embryo has.

I was pretty indifferent to the whole subject until I was faced with the decision. Me and my girlfriend were both 17 when she got pregnant and her father/step-mom stated in no uncertain terms that we had to get an abortion.

I don't know.. on one hand we were both in high school and the pregnancy would of caused lots of problems and it did! After seriously thinking about it for awhile I got really pissed off. I explained to my about to be father in law in no uncertain terms that he could fuck off.

Long story short.. we made it and everything is just fine. My daughter is 8 now and I can't imagine what life would be without her. I still hate my (now ex lol) father in law for his desire to kill her.

EDIT: It is kind of like the other thread. Unless you have kids you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to abortion because you haven't experienced first hand what you are going to destroy.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Because we have a right to life. When you kill someone you are taking something important to them, their very existence.

Why do we have a right to such a thing? How does a human get that right? Why can you lose that right (I'm assuming you're fine with killing Hitler)? What makes humans deserve such a right and not animals?

PS I'm not making arguements, I'm just trying to get you to delve deeper into your own moral grounds and clarify for yourself.

are you really as stupid as you are fronting here? jesus christ lol

There aren't universal answers to these questions, they're individual moral questions.

Am I the only who gets pissed off seing arguments like these?

It's so easy to sit back and argue this point because it's an unwritten right, it's only philosophically intact. Everyone has a right to life, it's why abortion is such a hot topic to begin with, it's why we have laws in place to protect the lives of individuals.

As for an animal's "right to live", if you want to place yourself on the same pedestal as a pig or a cow then be my guest. That's your choice. As for the rest of the logical world, we'll put ourselves higher considering we're the top predator on the planet and we're easily the most intelligent by our own definition. As a result we have these weird rules which we all abide by, a collective conscious, which governs the way we interact with each other and how we choose to deal with different problems.

With complex questions the answer comes not from stupid ass shouting matches but from analytical thinking and clarifying your own moral grounds. There are many things we take for granted that are simply untrue or not grounded in logical thinking. By not asking these kinds of questions nobody will gain a greater understanding of the issue.

[Saphirea]

I was pretty indifferent to the whole subject until I was faced with the decision. Me and my girlfriend were both 17 when she got pregnant and her father/step-mom stated in no uncertain terms that we had to get an abortion.

I don't know.. on one hand we were both in high school and the pregnancy would of caused lots of problems and it did! After seriously thinking about it for awhile I got really pissed off. I explained to my about to be father in law in no uncertain terms that he could fuck off.

Long story short.. we made it and everything is just fine. My daughter is 8 now and I can't imagine what life would be without her. I still hate my (now ex lol) father in law for his desire to kill her.

EDIT: It is kind of like the other thread. Unless you have kids you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to abortion because you haven't experienced first hand what you are going to destroy.

Awesome story and I'm glad that you at such a young age (Not that 17 is absolutly young but you get what I mean) understood what you were doing. Glad to hear that some people understand that it is a child and not some choice.
Question for you though, did you always feel this way or was it that when it actually occured to you that you changed your opinion on it?

[divisortheory]

EDIT: It is kind of like the other thread. Unless you have kids you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to abortion because you haven't experienced first hand what you are going to destroy.

Nice cop out, what about those that do have kids and still don't think abortion is the destruction of a life (which, btw, you still haven't defined)

[Mufferino]

There should be a rule about not making threads / derailing about Abortion, War, and Politics. Can't think of anything else as of this moment that is kind of like those topics. Ideas?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I don't know why but I feel the same way about most abortion topics lol. It's not the logical viewpoint, because it's potential not actual worth which defines whether or not we "deem" the child/potential child fit to live. Either way I just can't bear the thought of ending the potential something like a human embryo has.

I was pretty indifferent to the whole subject until I was faced with the decision. Me and my girlfriend were both 17 when she got pregnant and her father/step-mom stated in no uncertain terms that we had to get an abortion.

I don't know.. on one hand we were both in high school and the pregnancy would of caused lots of problems and it did! After seriously thinking about it for awhile I got really pissed off. I explained to my about to be father in law in no uncertain terms that he could fuck off.

Long story short.. we made it and everything is just fine. My daughter is 8 now and I can't imagine what life would be without her. I still hate my (now ex lol) father in law for his desire to kill her.

You aren't destroying an 8 year old child who has irrevocably changed people's lives. Your ex-father in law wasn't trying to kill your daughter, he was trying to save his own. You may say everything is just fine now but everything still would have been just fine if the baby wasn't born.

EDIT: It is kind of like the other thread. Unless you have kids you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to abortion because you haven't experienced first hand what you are going to destroy.

But if you did have children and you disagree you are a murderer right? Look at your father in law. Does this mean that nobody can be right or valid except when they have your opinion?

PS you never answered my questions. I asked them for a reason. To give a good answer takes some thought but this is a complex moral issue so you should have to put some thought into what you do.

[aurik]

It's a cop out, but it's actually scientifically valid. People with children undergo wiring changes in their brain that make them a bit irrational when it comes to kids (particularly their kids).

PS, I'm watching this topic (as is Tonko I bet) and if it gets out of hand it will be locked, so tread lightly.

[divisortheory]

It's a cop out, but it's actually scientifically valid. People with children undergo wiring changes in their brain that make them a bit irrational when it comes to kids (particularly their kids).

PS, I'm watching this topic (as is Tonko I bet) and if it gets out of hand it will be locked, so tread lightly.

Let's go back to the original question then. More than one person in this thread has posted that they are pro-life. Only one has suggested a penalty. Please speak up, what should the penalty be?

[miokomioko]

Castration? If you don't want to have kids, learn how to plan accordingly or else we'll have to do it for you.

[divisortheory]

Castration? If you don't want to have kids, learn how to plan accordingly or else we'll have to do it for you.

Sounds like a BS answer because you, like every single person in that video, can't think of a serious one. I'm also not sure how you would go about castrating a woman, since unless you've figured out a way to give an abortion to a man, the woman would be the receiver of the abortion (and hence the receiver of the penalty).

Removal of clitoris?