Abortion Penalty

[Saphirea]

Well, here's the thing. As someone who is pro-life, I can't justify the killing of another because they killed one can I? That totally goes against the theroy of being a pro-life Catholic.

A penalty for illegal abortions. Since well the supreme court hasn't outlawed abortions theoretically there is no way of instituting it. What made me happy was the outlawing of partial birth abortions, something people who I side with are quite happy about; then again the current justices, Catholics are in the majority of it. I think the people that do these though are usually in need of counciling afterwards. Postpartum depression usually exists in females who partake in abortions. Also, counciling for the male involved as well.

[divisortheory]

Well, here's the thing. As someone who is pro-life, I can't justify the killing of another because they killed one can I? That totally goes against the theroy of being a pro-life Catholic.

As long as you dont' support the death penalty at all under any circumstances, that's a reasonable position to take.

A penalty for illegal abortions. Since well the supreme court hasn't outlawed abortions theoretically there is no way of instituting it.

There's no way of instituting it now. However, anyone who is pro-life does by definition believes that abortion should be illegal. If you believe something is illegal, you should be able to determine a penalty that you believe is sufficient given the crime.

[Saphirea]

Castration? If you don't want to have kids, learn how to plan accordingly or else we'll have to do it for you.

Sounds like a BS answer because you, like every single person in that video, can't think of a serious one. I'm also not sure how you would go about castrating a woman, since unless you've figured out a way to give an abortion to a man, the woman would be the receiver of the abortion (and hence the receiver of the penalty).

Removal of clitoris?

That wouldn't stop the ability of getting pregnant. Whereas castration would ... Abstience and natural family planning inside the confines of a marriage, what's so wrong with that?

[divisortheory]

That wouldn't stop the ability of getting pregnant. Whereas castration would

No it wouldn't, they could easily get pregnant by someone else.

... Abstience and natural family planning inside the confines of a marriage, what's so wrong with that?

The male had nothing to do with the abortion. The male did not break the law. Assuming abortion were illegal, the female broke the law. Are you suggesting that if a person performs a certain action A, and then that action leads to an action B which is a crime, that we punish person A? If so, then if I sell you a car and you use the car as a getaway car in a bank robbery and run over someone while making your escape, I should go to jail?

The person who commits the crime is the one who gets punished.

[Devek]

Question for you though, did you always feel this way or was it that when it actually occured to you that you changed your opinion on it?

Idk, I always thought abortion was something that should be legal but I really didn't care. It was when faced with the prospect of getting one that I gained the opinion I have and I remember the second I gained that opinion (there is a patched hole in the wall of my old room from my fist as evidence).

You aren't destroying an 8 year old child who has irrevocably changed people's lives. Your ex-father in law wasn't trying to kill your daughter, he was trying to save his own. You may say everything is just fine now but everything still would have been just fine if the baby wasn't born.

He wasn't trying to save anything. He just didn't want to be embarrassed by everyone finding out his perfect little daughter got knocked up and had to go to alternative school to finish high school. If he had got his way I wouldn't have Maddi.

But if you did have children and you disagree you are a murderer right? Look at your father in law. Does this mean that nobody can be right or valid except when they have your opinion?

PS you never answered my questions. I asked them for a reason. To give a good answer takes some thought but this is a complex moral issue so you should have to put some thought into what you do.

Because it is something that can't be answered. It is like how pornography really doesn't have a definition but you know it when you see it. Life doesn't have a clear cut definition either, but when you're holding a woman you love and feel her stomach and something inside of there kicks your hand away you know what that is.. its life. It wasn't Sarah that kicked me, it wasn't me that kicked me, it was someone else that was unique and didn't deserve to be killed.

[Saphirea]

Well, here's the thing. As someone who is pro-life, I can't justify the killing of another because they killed one can I? That totally goes against the theroy of being a pro-life Catholic.

As long as you dont' support the death penalty at all under any circumstances, that's a reasonable position to take.

A penalty for illegal abortions. Since well the supreme court hasn't outlawed abortions theoretically there is no way of instituting it.

There's no way of instituting it now. However, anyone who is pro-life does by definition believes that abortion should be illegal. If you believe something is illegal, you should be able to determine a penalty that you believe is sufficient given the crime.

I totally don't support the death penalty at all.

As far as thinking it should be illegal and penalties, I'd say something that provided counciling in a secured enviroment. Like project rachel where good values (notice I didn't say Catholic) are taught and a woman would be able to recieve the counciling for her and the education on why she shouldn't have an abortion and ways to stay pure.

[divisortheory]

PS you never answered my questions. I asked them for a reason. To give a good answer takes some thought but this is a complex moral issue so you should have to put some thought into what you do.

Because it is something that can't be answered. It is like how pornography really doesn't have a definition but you know it when you see it. Life doesn't have a clear cut definition either, but when you're holding a woman you love and feel her stomach and something inside of there kicks your hand away you know what that is.. its life. It wasn't Sarah that kicked me, it wasn't me that kicked me, it was someone else that was unique and didn't deserve to be killed.

If they can't be answered, I sure pray to god that laws aren't formed around them. The day my country starts making laws that state "You will be punished when you perform an action that we'll know when we see" is the day i GTFO.

[Jujubie]

to prevent 5 months of looking a little fat

This made me laugh. It is a lot more than that. It is extreme exhaustion and possibly sickness (puking every day), food aversions and cravings and that is just the first 12-15 weeks before you get baby fat! It is having to pee every 15 minutes, it is stretch marks, and never having your body the same again. Unless you are a woman and have been pregnant you cannot begin to understand what it feels like to be pregnant or give birth.

Than don't have sex, it is that simple. If you can't handle the consequences of your actions than grow up. You have no reason to complain about pregnancy since it is just part of having sex. If the sex isn't good enough to make up for a little exhaustion and throwing up stop having sex immediately.

I wasn't complaining, just presenting the fact that pregnancy is more than just a little fat! You telling me to grow up. I laugh at your ignorance. (I happen to be married, 34 years old, and pregnant for the first time in my life right now, which was totally planned. Birth control worked wonders for 15 years.)

[divisortheory]

As far as thinking it should be illegal and penalties, I'd say something that provided counciling in a secured enviroment. Like project rachel where good values (notice I didn't say Catholic) are taught and a woman would be able to recieve the counciling for her and the education on why she shouldn't have an abortion and ways to stay pure.

Being pro-choice myself, I wouldn't even be opposed to something like this for people who undergo abortions. But we certainly can't call it murder if the only punishment we're suggesting is some counseling and education. Murderers go to prison.

[Devek]

If they can't be answered, I sure pray to god that laws aren't formed around them. The day my country starts making laws that state "You will be punished when you perform an action that we'll know when we see" is the day i GTFO.

They do already. Read up on laws regarding pornography.

[divisortheory]

If they can't be answered, I sure pray to god that laws aren't formed around them. The day my country starts making laws that state "You will be punished when you perform an action that we'll know when we see" is the day i GTFO.

They do already. Read up on laws regarding pornography.

Something more specific to read up on? Last time I checked "pornography" wasn't illegal.

[Izzy]

I think the best part about the abortion debate is people are actually arguing something they believe in. Not just arguing with someone for the sake of arguing like most FFXI arguments haha.

[Kuya]

Ad hominums, logical fallacies, yada yada yada.

You think a collection of cells is alive, in a certain sense it is. But it has not developed conscious, therefore it is not a person, hence it is not murder. I don't see anything else here but personal opinions attached to personal experiences that make this debate pointless.

Some people will continue to belive it's murder, under the pretext that it will become a living human being eventually. I chose not to dabel on "what ifs" and focus on the facts.

[Saphirea]

If they can't be answered, I sure pray to god that laws aren't formed around them. The day my country starts making laws that state "You will be punished when you perform an action that we'll know when we see" is the day i GTFO.

They do already. Read up on laws regarding pornography.

Something more specific to read up on? Last time I checked "pornography" wasn't illegal.

Actually, in quite a few states it is. Depending on the state and thier views on illicit and immoral material. Also, if there are enough people in the community supporting a no porn stamp on their surrounding areas, it's actually quite easy to get actual stores to stop selling immoral materials be it all the way down to magazines like maxim in 7-11; granted it all depends on what the community defines as immoral or obscene. It isn't governed by a national law its by state by state and then usually more defined by the local government.

[Kuya]

immoral lol

That word tickles me.

[Maguspk]

immoral lol

That word tickles me.

How can a word which everyone lives by "tickle" you. Are you trying to look as liberal as possible and poke at the possibility that nothing is "immoral"?

Go read some Emile Durkheim or something and read about his ideas on the collective conscious. Even though due to industrialization our collective conscious is broken by differing ideals and specialization we still share a common idea of right and wrong, and when it is broken we seek to repair it by punishing those who break it. That's why we have laws in place which are setup to make sure stuff like that doesn't happen.

Don't misread my post either, nowhere am I saying Abortion is right or wrong, I'm simply commenting on your obnoxious remark regarding the word "immoral".

Punishment for Abortion? If that was ever instituted it'd also have to be illegal and so obviously it'd have a punishment to go alongside it. I'd say prison time for the doctor performing the abortion, as in this hypothetical world it would be malpractice, as well as prison time or a large fine for the successful or attempt at abortion, respectively. It'd be like that whole Euthanasia debate...

[Kuya]

immoral lol

That word tickles me.

How can a word which everyone lives by "tickle" you. Are you trying to look as liberal as possible and poke at the possibility that nothing is "immoral"?

Go read some Emile Durkheim or something and read about his ideas on the collective conscious. Even though due to industrialization our collective conscious is broken by differing ideals and specialization we still share a common idea of right and wrong, and when it is broken we seek to repair it by punishing those who break it. That's why we have laws in place which are setup to make sure stuff like that doesn't happen.

Don't misread my post either, nowhere am I saying Abortion is right or wrong, I'm simply commenting on your obnoxious remark regarding the word "immoral".

Punishment for Abortion? If that was ever instituted it'd also have to be illegal and so obviously it'd have a punishment to go alongside it. I'd say prison time for the doctor performing the abortion, as in this hypothetical world it would be malpractice, as well as prison time or a large fine for the successful or attempt at abortion, respectively. It'd be like that whole Euthanasia debate...

Everyone has morals. The problem arises when you try to make morals universal. You can't make rules or laws on something as subjective as morals.

A person can only auto-evaluate themselves as moral or immoral (they will probably never say they are immoral), because it's a personal idea. You cannot judge others using your own moral codes, because it is in fact a personal code.

[divisortheory]

Punishment for Abortion? If that was ever instituted it'd also have to be illegal and so obviously it'd have a punishment to go alongside it. I'd say prison time for the doctor performing the abortion, as in this hypothetical world it would be malpractice, as well as prison time or a large fine for the successful or attempt at abortion, respectively. It'd be like that whole Euthanasia debate...

What I find so interesting about this question, and the reason I posted this thread in the first place, is because almost nobody thinks the woman should be punished. I'm honestly a little flabbergasted, all this time I've heard pro-lifers screaming that the mother doesn't have the right to choose that a human should die. But all of a sudden, when faced with this question, people are taken aback. Regardless of the fact that the mother is choosing to take the life of a "human", they shouldn't be punished. I honestly don't understand, but at the same time I'm intrigued, because it tells me that perhaps even pro-lifers realize that it isn't really murder.

[Xavier]

Freedom of choice is the only stance that makes much sense. And you can define choice as having the reasoning capacity to make a decision, which, a fetus has not. And yes, a fetus will eventually become a child, and a child is more than capable of knowing what it wants, but abortions aren't performed on children.

Making the argument to ban abortions because women are careless, stupid, afraid of being fat, lazy, etc, is a mans argument, an argument made out of ignorance. Pregnancies happen for a variety of reasons, but there are circumstances where either the health of the mother is in jeopardy, or the life of the child would be painful and unnecessarily difficult. Adoption as the solution is a misconception, as there are plenty of kids who go through the system and never receive parents, and thats at current levels, where adoption is legal.

Its easy to pass judgment from a distance that abortion is selfish, but keeping a child who won't know a happy home because of some imposed notion of morality (by men) is equally so. And, honestly, I don't know why people feel entitled to deem themselves the moral authority on life either.

Rudy Giuliani said it best, "I hate [abortion] ... However, I believe in a woman's right to choose."

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Those calling for the death penalty if abortion was illegal and performed anyway are hypocrites, and those who think a mother should be sent to jail haven't seen the shambles that the American prison system is in.

As to what divisory just said, it is quite amusing, isn't it?

[Charla]

Germ cells such as sperm and embryos do not have "human" dna but when they combine they do.

OK, since you obviously didn't read most of my post, I'm going to actually spell it out without wikipedia links this time.

I have 46 chromosomes. A normal gamete (that's sperm or egg, captain biology) has 23 chromosomes. A person with Turner syndrome has 45 chromosomes. A person with Down syndrome has 47 chromosomes. Now, according to your definition, "human DNA" requires having 46 chromosomes. But that would mean that miss Turner syndrome and mister/miss down syndrome are not human. No, 45 and 47 are not "close enough", and therefore you've just committed a logical fallacy and disproved your own point.

Life doesn't have a clear cut definition either, but when you're holding a woman you love and feel her stomach and something inside of there kicks your hand away you know what that is.. its life. It wasn't Sarah that kicked me, it wasn't me that kicked me, it was someone else that was unique and didn't deserve to be killed.

That argument (to be generous with the term) makes me furious. Your subjective experience does not justify attempting to force your opinions on others. Your own capacity to be a good parent does not mean that every American is capable of being a good parent. Your own (presumably) bearable childhood does not mean that every potential American will have a good childhood. I know that I would rather not live than live a bad life. I would thank you for "going back in time to before I had a brain" and preventing me from having that life. That is not intended as a justification of my opinions on this entire topic, and it may be a biased opinion (due to my own self-esteem issues and my opinions about the nature of physical and emotional pain as it relates to life). But even so, it still counters your emotion-based and therefore equally biased opinion about why a given entity "deserves" to exist simply because it is "unique".