Bonds just hit 756

[izembo]

the record stays with aaron in my books, wont recognize bond in the least.

[Viq]

Babe ruth woulda hit 900 home runs today? I doubt it, the game today is much more difficult than it used to be. There are more games throughout the season to wear on the players, there is more knowledge about the opposing pitchers, stuff that wasn't available 60-80 years ago. There is more knowledge about mechanics of playing to get more movement on the ball, throw the ball harder, faster and with better accuracy. If anything bonds would have hit over 900-1000 in babe ruths day. Were there great players back in that era, sure. But they can't be compared to today's great players. It's a different game completely.

They actually can be compared with some degree of accuracy. I'll spare you the details, but pick up Baseball Between the Numbers for Baseball Prospectus' heavy mathematical analysis. They figured Bonds would've come in around 444 homers during Ruth's years, and I trust their analysis a whole lot more than yours.

[Insanecyclone]

I dont keep track of baseball much anymore but grats to kill regardless of the steroids or not. His last game they kept him geting that HR it was funny lol

[Akiyama]

First of all Po, Cy Young didn't have 600+ wins. He had 511. If you're going to spout off "records off the top of your head" at least get it right. No one will EVER break Cy Young's record. Hell, I doubt anyone else will ever get 300 wins. If you're curiuos, he was 511-316. He also had the most losses (by 8) over Pud Galvin, who I assume you have no clue who the hell he is. As a baseball fan, I'm more on the statistical side than I am over the game in general.

As for the other records, I think Cal and Nolan Ryan are safe. I don't see anyone ever possibly breaking that record as we are in the era of the hitters, not pitchers. Dimaggio on the other hand, his record is still possible, just highly unlikely. It's hard to get a hit every day you play. Also, if you're interested, I think Roger Clemens is about 1050+ or so K's away from Nolan so as I said. Unbreakable.

My thoughts on Bonds breaking the record is 25-75% of the players who played in this "era" used and abused steroids. They help you see better, they help you hit harder, so they obviously give you an edge. Saying stuff like "it doesn't affect the player's skill" is kind of stupid in a way as EVERYONE in the MLB has to have some form of skill to even be in the damn league, so that point is really moot. The thing is, steroids give a player the ability to make a player go from decent to average, good to great, and in Bonds' case, great to legendary. I'm not saying this is a black day in baseball, but I'm not celebrating it as much as I would be if we were sure 100% that he did this legitly. Bonds is an amazing hitter, there's no doubt about it, but are we sure just how amazing he truly is?

One more thing.. the hell are you comparing hitting a baseball at 12-15 when pitches at the time would break 70+ at best to a MLB baseball player. D: That's so dumb, it's funny and it made me giggle.

/rant

And Skyyla.. how can you compare Bonds to Babe Ruth's era anyway? He's black, he'd probably steal someone's bike while eating fried chicken and run away. D:

Don't hurt me, please.

[Xavier]

I'm just curious, to those who think the steroids were irrelevant, if they really were, why take them in the first place?

Nobody wakes up in the morning and goes, "well, I'm a damn good player, and this drug won't help me at all, but if people find out it'll taint my career, but I think I'll go ahead and take it for shits and giggles anyway." lol?

[Akiyama]

I'm just curious, to those who think the steroids were irrelevant, if they really were, why take them in the first place?

Nobody wakes up in the morning and goes, "well, I'm a damn good player, and this drug won't help me at all, but if people find out it'll taint my career, but I think I'll go ahead and take it for shits and giggles anyway." lol?

Here's the thing. Just because you're an adult, it doesn't mean you're no longer impressionable. Ever think maybe he saw the big guns like McGwire, Sosa, and all them take it and figure "Well I'm a better ball player with them, if steroids can make them this damn good, it'll be amazing for me" and started taking them? We all know what a drama queen Bonds is, so this really isn't that far of a stretch.

We all agree. Bonds was a damn good ball player even before the true "Steroid era" began. He averaged a decent amount of homeruns for his career and honestly, it's really hard to tell how many he'd have hit without steroids. I think he won 3 MVPs during his career before the era began, so I mean.. no arguments there. Now, whether or not he'd be compared to the greats of yesterday, today if he had not done steroids, we'll never know will we? I guess my point is, he knows what kind of player he was before steroids, he just felt he could be even better with them. Telling yourself the drug doesn't do anything is naive, but telling yourself it makes you go from 0 to hero is rediculous. That of course is only the opinion of a 21 year old baseball fan who's followed it since the day he understood what the game was about. (Me, for the slow ones.)

[Xavier]

So you're saying he wasn't satisfied with himself and took drugs to be better?

There is no way to talk about the record without talking about steroids, even if he could've reached it without them. Because the fact of the matter is, he didn't reach it without them. He sold himself short. He was a good player who was approaching the end of his career and knew he was going to come up short, gave in, and now nobody will know what was him and what was the drugs in the last few years.

Even if it was pure skill that got the homeruns, having taken the drugs taints him all the same, because it'll always leave doubt.

[Norelco]

So you're saying he wasn't satisfied with himself and took drugs to be better?

There is no way to talk about the record without talking about steroids, even if he could've reached it without them. Because the fact of the matter is, he didn't reach it without them. He sold himself short. He was a good player who was approaching the end of his career and knew he was going to come up short, gave in, and now nobody will know what was him and what was the drugs in the last few years.

Even if it was pure skill that got the homeruns, having taken the drugs taints him all the same, because it'll always leave doubt.

I think MLB is really to blame for this for sitting on their hands for so long. They could have done something about it but didn't.

Also...why are black people so tall? Because their knee grows. :D

[Akiyama]

So you're saying he wasn't satisfied with himself and took drugs to be better?

There is no way to talk about the record without talking about steroids, even if he could've reached it without them. Because the fact of the matter is, he didn't reach it without them. He sold himself short. He was a good player who was approaching the end of his career and knew he was going to come up short, gave in, and now nobody will know what was him and what was the drugs in the last few years.

Even if it was pure skill that got the homeruns, having taken the drugs taints him all the same, because it'll always leave doubt.

Well think about this. It wasn't until after the 1998 season that he came back to training camp looking like the Incredible Hulk. In 1998, we all know it was McGwire and Sosa with the HR chase, and Bonds was downplayed even though he had his best year ever up to date in the Majors. As I said, Bonds is a drama queen. He likes the attention even though he hates the media and hates people butting into his lives. Make any sense? D: He felt dejected. He wanted to be the face of baseball, the most watched athlete, so what did he do? He upped how well he played by taking steroids, to keep up with the big guys. Bonds was already almost a shoe-in by 1998 into the Hall of Fame. He was a great player. 300+ HR, doubles, steals.. he had all of it coming, but I personally think due to his ego, he did the steroids "unknowingly" so he could get the upperhand on both McGwire and Sosa. We also know how poor he was in the All-star game, and we also know how much he beats up on himself when he plays bad. Do you remember the interview he had in the locker room where he blew up about how lousy he was (I think he was in like.. an 0-24 slump or something) and used a few explatives to describe how he doesn't deserve to wear a uniform? Yeah. He's got a lot of pride.

It's just all theory. I mean, the facts are true about how good he was before and obviously after the steroids. I just think the guy was way to impressionable.

So to answer your question in short, yes. I think he took drugs to not only better himself, but due to how much pride he had, he wanted to become the best player in the league, which he did, whether we like it or not. :/ Sorry for the long reply.

[Po]

Sorry I was off on my number of wins that Cy Young had. I had not looked it up, I just knew it was a ridiculous amount, but I was right that he also had the most losses.

And no players are "exceptional" into their 40s. I believe I have heard on Sportscenter this year that Bonds has the record for most home runs in his 40s for both a season and a career, and he has not hit all that many since he has been 40. They primarily came 37-40 (2002-2005) since he got hurt much of last year with his knee and did not play a whole lot.

Tell me how the steroids have affected his patience at the plate. Tell me how the steroids have affected his ability to wait for the perfect pitch then take advantage of it. Tell me how the steroids made him able to see the ball more clearly and put the sweet spot of the bat on it in just the right way to get a good lift on it and drive it. The answer is that they don't.

It is a fact that his head grew enormously (sp?) after the 2002 season when he took the roids, while this may sound silly, it is a fact he got a much bigger hat size, and I'm sorry but that is not natural human development at 37. And for the fucking umpteenth time, he was always able to do that but it is clear that the roids as I said took him from being an exceptional player to super human. Also, look at the pictures from the early 90s in Pittsburgh compared to him now, he looks like the hulk. Of course some of that is due to lifting, but I am sure he had some performance enhancements along the way too.

So your whole post about me not understanding about hitting and how that defends Bonds is completely flawed since as I said he already had those abilities and I am sure would have finished with 650-670 home runs continuing at the pace for his entire career before the 73 HR season.
Here, just for reference:
1986 - 16 HR
1987 - 25
1988 - 24
1989 - 19
1990 - 33
1991 - 25
1992 - 34
1993 - 46
1994 - 37
1995 - 33
1996 - 42
1997 - 40
1998 - 37 (McGwire/Sosa Year)
1999 - 34
2000 - 49
2001 - 73
And then after that season it went 46, 45 , 45, and then no more than 26.

That isn't natural, period, if you can't see that, regardless of how excellent a baseball player he was before steroids then you are truly blind.

[Skyylya]

It's about how you put the bat on the ball and the mechanics of your swing more than it is how much muscle you have.

on the contrary, a huge part of bonds success is that he was strong enough that he could crowd home plate, and swing fast enough because of that muscle mass to get around on inside pitches and not leave any part of the plate uncovered. Its a pretty huge advantage.

I can hit a ball over the fence with a wooden bat, it's really not that hard to do. The hard part of hitting is putting the sweet spot of the bat on a ball that's moving 95+ mph and breaking 2-3 planes and being able to do it consistantly. That is where skill in hitting and baseball comes in and that can't be affected by steroids.

I'm not saying that the steroids weren't used, i'm not saying that they didn't have an effect on his game, they made the ball go a little further. but, they do not, and have never been proven to affect hand-eye coordination and not even directly to vision from anything i've ever read (show me a journal where this was proven). The ONLY thing you can argue for steroids affecting 'how' he hit's a ball is due to increased batspeed which would help him get to the inside pitch from crowding the plate as someone said, and the fact that he can turn on it cause he has a strong lower body. But that still does NOT help you put the bat on the ball, i refer to jose canseco again who had one of the fastest bat speeds ever in the game, swung so hard i saw him break the bat on his back once on his follow through and he could barely hit for a 240 average.

Babe ruth woulda hit 900 home runs today? I doubt it, the game today is much more difficult than it used to be. There are more games throughout the season to wear on the players, there is more knowledge about the opposing pitchers, stuff that wasn't available 60-80 years ago. There is more knowledge about mechanics of playing to get more movement on the ball, throw the ball harder, faster and with better accuracy. If anything bonds would have hit over 900-1000 in babe ruths day. Were there great players back in that era, sure. But they can't be compared to today's great players. It's a different game completely.

They actually can be compared with some degree of accuracy. I'll spare you the details, but pick up Baseball Between the Numbers for Baseball Prospectus' heavy mathematical analysis. They figured Bonds would've come in around 444 homers during Ruth's years, and I trust their analysis a whole lot more than yours.

I'm on the fence about this, it's like running a computer simulated program to see whether a team from this era would beat a team from a previous era 50 years ago. It can't be done properly because the entire dynamics of the game are different. When they compare things like this they go simply off the accumulated statistics of the players from season to season and over their career. the reason this is flawed is because if you took a player from this era and put him in the previous one he would be a different player and same goes for putting a older player in a new era the stats are essentially irrelevant out of their own time period.

The game is different, the mechanics are different, the knowledge of the game is different, the scouting reports are 100x more advanced now than they used to be. Players have better health care, play longer schedules now, play a wider variety of teams/talents, the design of the baseball and bats themselves are different and more advanced now than in previous eras. All manner of things that just cannot be taken into consideration when trying to match now vs. then. It just can't be properly done and every bit of it is speculatory at best. I am not saying that babe ruth would not be successful now but it was a different game back then. We can't be certain the exact talent level of the group back then because record keeping wasn't as good. there were no radar guns to see how fast people throw, for all we know what they thought was 95-100 back then coulda only been 85-90 which is a huge difference. I'm sure there were people that could throw 95-100 but it was very few and far between in that era i'd be willing to bet. People just want to discredit bonds as much as possible because he's an asshole instead of giving him credit for the type of player that he is on the field, who gives a shit what he does off the field. (I think pete rose absolutely belongs in the hall)

I don't compare people accross era's, because it just can't be done properly. But I do feel that even though today's pitchers aren't that great, the overall quality of the game is better now on a talent level than it used to be. Obviously I never experienced it first hand, but the game has evolved so much and so has the technology that I don't think you can honestly believe that older generations and present generations are playing the exact same game.

[Tyche]

How do you compare the Ruth's HR's and say his numbers would be inflated today when Ruth didn't play against multiple ethnic groups. It would just seem to me that it would be 5x harder to hit 700HRs today than it would have been 75 years ago.

[Viq]

That was a nice rant, Skyylya, but they didn't just compare stats from era to era. I won't get into stats like EqA and EqR here, but until you've read their study you just sound like every other person that has debates about this stuff without actually thinking about the ways to accurately compare players.

[Skyylya]

Sorry I was off on my number of wins that Cy Young had. I had not looked it up, I just knew it was a ridiculous amount, but I was right that he also had the most losses.

And no players are "exceptional" into their 40s. I believe I have heard on Sportscenter this year that Bonds has the record for most home runs in his 40s for both a season and a career, and he has not hit all that many since he has been 40. They primarily came 37-40 (2002-2005) since he got hurt much of last year with his knee and did not play a whole lot.

Tell me how the steroids have affected his patience at the plate. Tell me how the steroids have affected his ability to wait for the perfect pitch then take advantage of it. Tell me how the steroids made him able to see the ball more clearly and put the sweet spot of the bat on it in just the right way to get a good lift on it and drive it. The answer is that they don't.

It is a fact that his head grew enormously (sp?) after the 2002 season when he took the roids, while this may sound silly, it is a fact he got a much bigger hat size, and I'm sorry but that is not natural human development at 37. And for the fucking umpteenth time, he was always able to do that but it is clear that the roids as I said took him from being an exceptional player to super human. Also, look at the pictures from the early 90s in Pittsburgh compared to him now, he looks like the hulk. Of course some of that is due to lifting, but I am sure he had some performance enhancements along the way too.

So your whole post about me not understanding about hitting and how that defends Bonds is completely flawed since as I said he already had those abilities and I am sure would have finished with 650-670 home runs continuing at the pace for his entire career before the 73 HR season.
Here, just for reference:
1986 - 16 HR
1987 - 25
1988 - 24
1989 - 19
1990 - 33
1991 - 25
1992 - 34
1993 - 46
1994 - 37
1995 - 33
1996 - 42
1997 - 40
1998 - 37 (McGwire/Sosa Year)
1999 - 34
2000 - 49
2001 - 73
And then after that season it went 46, 45 , 45, and then no more than 26.

That isn't natural, period, if you can't see that, regardless of how excellent a baseball player he was before steroids then you are truly blind.

So by your logic you want to discredit every athlete over the age of 40 who's had one exceptional season? You know that Nolan ryan threw nearly half of his no hitters AFTER he turned 40? My he must have been on steroids better put asterisk's next to all those. Maybe we should go ahead and discredit mcguire too since he hit 70 home runs and then didn't approach those numbers ever in any other season, sure he was on andro but that was legal when he took it. And sammy? 66 is way to much for the average over the course of his career better discredit all his accomplishments.

Nolan ryan turned 40 in 1987 and played until he was 46, so what did he do after he turned 40? He led the league in strikeouts 4 times; had the best ratio of hits allowed per 9 innings 4 times; had the best strike outs per 9 innings ratio 5 times; had the best WHIP 2 times and led the league in ERA when he was 41 and was very close to leading a few times after that. Some players are able to play well after 40. I didn't even use his 38-39 seasons since you used that age as a benchmark before, which would've increased all his league leading stats. yes 38 or so is when 99% of all players are pretty much done if not earlier, but every so often you get one that can still perform, even in the facets of the game NOT affected by steroids. again i'm not saying he didn't use them, just that it doesn't help in as many way's as people make it out to.

Also, Barry didn't even turn 39/40 until 2004, when he was clearly having knee issues etc..., he was only 35 in 2001 when he had the 73 home runs, not an age where it's inconceivable for a player to have an exceptional season in their career. Also look at how many times he gets walked in a season. When players get walked a lot they have the opportunity to be more selective at the plate, being more selective means picking better pitches to hit and taking advantage of those opportunities like he does.

Edit: here's a link for you to look at.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... _bat.shtml

Lists the season leaders for every stat in their age 36 season (since that's how old he was during that season i guess, not 35). Bonds is only the top of a few categories and not even in the top 4 in all of them. And, if you look at the column on the right to see their at present career stats after that age he's not even that far above hank aaron after turning 36. People can have exceptional seasons without it being entirely attributed to steroids.

[Skyylya]

That was a nice rant, Skyylya, but they didn't just compare stats from era to era. I won't get into stats like EqA and EqR here, but until you've read their study you just sound like every other person that has debates about this stuff without actually thinking about the ways to accurately compare players.

so link their study for me so I can read it.

[Viq]

As I've said, it was published in their book Baseball Between the Numbers. If it was online, I would've linked it.

[Melena]

what it comes down to is cheating is cheating. if bonds get's an *, then anyone else who has cheated, which includes the likes of paige, dean, and about 90% of the hall of fame should have em. Don't single out one cause he broke a record. if your going to do one, do em all.

[Tyche]

As I've said, it was published in their book Baseball Between the Numbers. If it was online, I would've linked it.

So how do they account for Ruth only facing a single ethnic group and possibly not playing against the world's best talent, as Bond's does day in and day out. It seems like an impossible theroycraft.

[Skyylya]

As I've said, it was published in their book Baseball Between the Numbers. If it was online, I would've linked it.

So how do they account for Ruth only facing a single ethnic group and possibly not playing against the world's best talent, as Bond's does day in and day out. It seems like an impossible theroycraft.

As i said and believe (which you can debate because i'm not baseball prospectus) any kind of statistical computation they come up with, or any kind of new way at looking at statistics is 100% speculative since you can not possibly know how ruth would have played now in today's world, vs todays players with todays technology and game schedule etc... neither can you say how bonds would have performed in that era. Everything they look at is statistics, your Eqr and Eqa or whatever it is, are statistics and just a re-designed way to look at the same stuff.

I'll go to barnes and noble and read that as I can't find a review online that shows that preface chapter, but i'll expect to see (as i've read from reviews on the book) that it's just another take on the same statistics to show a theory on cross-era performance.

From what i did read of the book and what was shown in the chapter how do steroids affect the game today, they aren't even remotely in the ballpark of discrediting bonds and seem to be infact saying that the steroids are probably not a direct cause of his stat inflation and that at his age it isn't uncommon for a player at that age to have a singular stretch of excellence over the course of a couple years.

[RakEx]

Let's see if we can name all the players who did steroids. Could be fun to see who people accuse. Here's my quicklist off the top of my head.

1. Ivan Rodriguez - only dropped about 50-60 lbs over the past few years (the most overlooked user)
2. Barry Bonds - Looks like a characature
3. Mark McGuire - Monster
4. Rapheal Palmeiro - Caught
5. Jason Giambi - Greasy dome
6. Gary Sheffield - to dumb not to have taken them
7. Luis Gonzales - 50+ HR's a few years back lol
8. Mike Lowell - 50+ HR's a few years back in a huge park.
9. Ryan Klesko
10. Bagwell, Caminitti, Canseco, Belle, Ramirez, Juan Gonzalez, Abreu (years with philly, huge)

Ok thats my quick list. Pitchers use alot too but it's much more difficult to see. I dont want to name them at this time.