Melee as RDM

[aurik]

bah, you fail aurik, where is my bonus points

They're in the mail, please allow 6-8 weeks for delivery.

Ok, so to sum this up...

OPs question

Q. The OPs question was "Can a naked MNK outparse a melee RDM (properly equipped of course) in a merit PT.
A. A naked MNK wins easily.

Wrish's interpretation of the OPs question after adding his own stipulations.

Q. Can a naked MNK (unhasted) outparse a RDM who gimps himself by choosing earrings that doesnt help his job(lolhollow), meritting abilities that make no sense(lolenhancing), is not responisble for doing any buffs(lol, someone dia this plz), has a 10 second head start in an exp party(plz wait, i need to cast enspell) that would do 3k exp per hour (cuz you know, the MNK is naked and has to wait for the RDM to get ready), and somehow, somehow, being so fucking noob, still manages to have 200,000,000 in gear.

A. Itd be kinda close lol.

[Yutuyu]

Aurik wins the thread (. . )

[Whatinthe]

Ok, so to sum this up...

OPs question

Q. The OPs question was "Can a naked MNK outparse a melee RDM (properly equipped of course) in a merit PT.
A. A naked MNK wins easily.

Wrish's interpretation of the OPs question after adding his own stipulations.

Q. Can a naked MNK (unhasted) outparse a RDM who gimps himself by choosing earrings that doesnt help his job(lolhollow), meritting abilities that make no sense(lolenhancing), is not responisble for doing any buffs(lol, someone dia this plz), has a 10 second head start in an exp party(plz wait, i need to cast enspell) that would do 3k exp per hour (cuz you know, the MNK is naked and has to wait for the RDM to get ready), and somehow, somehow, being so fucking noob, still manages to have 200,000,000 in gear.

A. Itd be kinda close lol.

Except that's not what happened, is it?

The way were gonna do this is as controlled as possible. We'll call a time (eg 20:45) and at that point we both begin, he starts buffing, throwing on en-spells, etc etc...and i start punching. We both begin at the same time, and go til the mob is dead.

What kind of idiot goes into a merit party and starts punching mob before any buffs are up? Do you go as MNK and start hitting mobs before you have Pro/Shell on, or start casting Utusemi after you start hitting the mobs? Telling the RDM he couldn't cast anything before this "controlled time" had everything to do with why this test was fail.

I also think it'd be more beneficial to the RDM not to cast dia 2. It takes time (albeit short), and it will benefit the MNK much much more than it will benefit the RDM whos primary damage isnt affected by dia.

-and a bit later-

We'll get haste, but the RDM is gotta dia and gravity, that affects his parse. Im not giving every fucking benefit of the doubt to a RDM. Im sure the OP expects practical uses, and care-bearing for the RDMs every need so he can keep up isnt practical.

They were fighting T mobs (Jnuns) in the mires. Requiring gravity on Jnun = instant fail, and probably helped Tyche more than it did the RDM. You can tell from the parse that they were both using Sushi. Tyche actually hit the acc cap thanks to that Gravity+Sushi - in short, it was the ideal mob for a "naked MNK" with STR+1 and H2H+8 merits to show off how powerful a Monk truly is.

A quick calculation showed that Tyche was probably fighting for around 50 attack rounds, or around 4 min 15 seconds. A Blau/Joy RDM could eat meat and still hit around 85% easily on Jnun, but thanks to the /KC even with full club merits, I don't think the RDM was able to hit 90% on the offhand.

I dont think it will matter, despite the RDM dropping spools of gil to help test.

-and-

However, were not going to really do an incredibly large sample of mobs. So if it miscalculates, we should be able to compensate easily.

If my calculations are correct, the RDM spent roughly 73 seconds casting spell within that time period. That was the only way I could get my numbers to match up with what was provided in the parse. It was precisely because the RDM dropped spools of gils and the small sample of mobs that the parse turned out the way it did. His abysmal crit rate shows that he didn't even have crit merits, so most likely no STR merits either. My bet is that his STR was even lower than Tyche's (64+1+5) based on Taru RDM/NIN's STR (59+3+5) setup and Tyche's info bit on page 7.

This wasn't a RDM that knew how to melee. He spent too much time casting, under unrealistic conditions, against a meritted monk that was right at the sweet spot for the test. A RDM could cover all his own spell needs within 20 seconds every 3 min, and that would require less care-bearing than your average melee. The only thing this test showed that spending 200mil on an idiot RDM won't get you that far.

[Neosutra]

A RDM can get a fairly respectable 278 Sword Skil

So basically the same as a meritless pld with none of the same + skill equipment. 300ish skill is roughly what i prefer in meripo for any DD job (merits, skill gear). And even with that and accuracy gear you typically wont hit accuracy cap w/o sushi.

I guess WAR should use G Axe instead of Ridill then, since it's impossible to have capped GAxe skill lower than sword. Everyone out of the Aery, pool's closed.

Ya, cause ridill doesnt attack 2-3 times, have high base damage, and can be used by job with zerk, aggressor, stats, and awesome gear.

[Sylvrdragon]

That RDM totally failed, I could outparse him with ease with just the DD gear left over from my BLU and PLD (which is really just accessories). He also doesn't know how to use a Kraken Club.

The proper way to use it is to gear for ATK- (yes, thats attack minus) and Enspell Up so that you hit for 0, but with 26-29/hit enspells (depending on if you got lolhollow or not), giving the mob no TP. Then load up on Haste and ACC gear to the max and let the MNK tank since all of your damage is hate free.

Also, from last page, I don't see why people are downplaying the factor of Enspell damage. How much would a melee pay to have every single hit do 20 extra damage? (You don't get resisted if you cast with Enhancing high enough to get that number [read: 300+]) A RDMs per-hit damage is gonna be higher than a THFs, and probably just barely under a NINs without enspells. Add 20 to that and you are a competitor.

None of a RDMs multihit WSs are really gonna do anything special, not even Evisceration. That being said, I would just stick with Joy/Justice and maybe even hold TP for Spirits or just be content with crappy ~200 damage Savage Blades.

All that being said, I think a RDM can be be plenty competitive to an NQ walmart DD. Anything more of course will put a RDM in their proper place on the back lines.

[Neosutra]

That RDM totally failed, I could outparse him with ease with just the DD gear left over from my BLU and PLD (which is really just accessories). He also doesn't know how to use a Kraken Club.

The proper way to use it is to gear for ATK- (yes, thats attack minus) and Enspell Up so that you hit for 0, but with 26-29/hit enspells (depending on if you got lolhollow or not), giving the mob no TP. Then load up on Haste and ACC gear to the max and let the MNK tank since all of your damage is hate free.

Also, from last page, I don't see why people are downplaying the factor of Enspell damage. How much would a melee pay to have every single hit do 20 extra damage? (You don't get resisted if you cast with Enhancing high enough to get that number [read: 300+]) A RDMs per-hit damage is gonna be higher than a THFs, and probably just barely under a NINs without enspells. Add 20 to that and you are a competitor.

None of a RDMs multihit WSs are really gonna do anything special, not even Evisceration. That being said, I would just stick with Joy/Justice and maybe even hold TP for Spirits or just be content with crappy ~200 damage Savage Blades.

All that being said, I think a RDM can be be plenty competitive to an NQ walmart DD. Anything more of course will put a RDM in their proper place on the back lines.

No, even with enspells your normal hits are not going to compare to any DD, nin or thf, mnk or war, drg or lolpup. And "wow 20 more damage" isnt that great when its -the only- damage your doing. Not to mention the ninja got in 5-6 times as many attack rounds in that time, hit his blade jin macro a dozen more times, double attacked 20 more times, Crit hit about 400 more times, and went and had sex with your girlfriend in the time it took you to get 100tp and clean off your keyboard from jacking off to how awesome rdm melee is as the rest of your melees are doing /sea to find replacements.

Why are we debating this? Rdm = fun job and fun melee toy, good for soloing alot of stuff and playing around. Rdm /= melee DD capable of producing anything near melee DD #s. And we just proved that a walmart DD would own any rdm, hell a nakid DD is all you need.

[Isiolia]

Why are we debating this? Rdm = fun job and fun melee toy, good for soloing alot of stuff and playing around. Rdm /= melee DD capable of producing anything near melee DD #s. And we just proved that a walmart DD would own any rdm, hell a nakid DD is all you need.

Because apparently nobody actually has a legitimate parse from a DD RDM that's merited, geared, and knows what they're doing. Everything is based on limited experience or, apparently, purely conjecture.

[Vail]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n...en/Enspell.png

I'm raedy coach!!! put me in!
I get bored in merit parties and bring blau/Vshiled some sushi and my enhancing gear where ever I go just for the off chance.

I have Dagger merits(thf is my main melee job), and blau's built in acc (and superior WS) makes it more favorable to me then Joy.

I do about OH! 30% of a ridill war in merit party (when I melee full time, which I normaly don't) they should really change ridill's text to (occasional deals damage equal to 2-3 red mages)

This wasn't a RDM that knew how to melee.

and you know how to? you're the one asking us how to do it.

His abysmal crit rate shows that he didn't even have crit merits, so most likely no STR merits either.

Crits do so much on kraken club !!! (not) and STR merits don't make a huge difference in damage dealt. That (and the large merit cost) is why people upgrade attributes last.

[Bagel]

A RDM can get a fairly respectable 278 Sword Skil

So basically the same as a meritless pld with none of the same + skill equipment. 300ish skill is roughly what i prefer in meripo for any DD job (merits, skill gear). And even with that and accuracy gear you typically wont hit accuracy cap w/o sushi.

I guess WAR should use G Axe instead of Ridill then, since it's impossible to have capped GAxe skill lower than sword. Everyone out of the Aery, pool's closed.

Ya, cause ridill doesnt attack 2-3 times, have high base damage, and can be used by job with zerk, aggressor, stats, and awesome gear.

Then you should've responded with "Though RDM can get 278 sword skill, the lower triple proc rate on Justice Sword, game breaking 1 less dmg, lack of hauberk/haidate and being forced to choose between berserk or dual wield."

I just wanted to point out that 278 is the max skill of one of the most acclaimed exp DDs. I don't give a fuck about melee RDM.

[Fng]

Should compare 1 pimped out melee RDM

Vs

1 pimped out nuking mage..

Shouldn't a couple T3's will beat any melee a RDM could do in the 1 minute a fight takes place.

[Whatinthe]

Shouldn't a couple T3's will beat any melee a RDM could do in the 1 minute a fight takes place.

Your party will love it when you spam T3's on Colibris. Maybe you can go /blm too (for the conserve MP trait) and use -ga2's for even more damage.

[Fng]

Why would a T3 matter at colobri camp? and ga's are as retarded as you thinking people have shadows down long enough for a T3 to connect...

[Jeryhn]

As for the Paluwan body........ Idk, i ask myself that everytime i see a rdm in it. All i can think of is "too poor to aford a SH".

Quick question, just being nitpicky, but how exactly is Evasion +10 on a job with 210 natural evasion skill better than increased critical hit rate when it comes to strictly DD purposes?

[Isiolia]

Actually, nuke vs melee is where a lot of the melee RDM discussions get started. At that point, it can greatly depend on the situation.

Primarily, the argument for nuking is not so much greater damage, but that your typical RDM does not have room for a full set of casting gear and a full set of melee gear. You can play backline in optimal gear, and if you happen to have spare MP, toss a nuke out.

Melee, on the other hand, tends to require a bit of a commitment to really do well at. You won't have the inventory to support a full casting kit, and will likely hold off on at least weapon swaps and things to keep TP. If you are casting much, and meleeing, both suffer. (which is not to say that a hybrid style can never work, just that you won't be as effective at either one)

In the context of this thread though, I think the point is more a RDM entirely focused on DD.

Given that, I think you'd run into the issues that keep BLMs out of TP burns. If you're nuking to provide damage, you'll run out of MP quickly and need to rest. By contrast, a RDM focusing on self-buffing and melee only should have little trouble staying on their feet between Converts.
A single tier III nuke would use more MP per mob than you'd need for buffs that last for 2.5-3 minutes.

[Muirlyn]

The way were gonna do this is as controlled as possible. We'll call a time (eg 20:45) and at that point we both begin, he starts buffing, throwing on en-spells, etc etc...and i start punching. We both begin at the same time, and go til the mob is dead.

What kind of idiot goes into a merit party and starts punching mob before any buffs are up? Do you go as MNK and start hitting mobs before you have Pro/Shell on, or start casting Utusemi after you start hitting the mobs? Telling the RDM he couldn't cast anything before this "controlled time" had everything to do with why this test was fail.

/ I go as MNK and start hitting mobs before I have any buffs on, MNK doesn't need protect nor shell in an exp party, and don't bother using Utsusemi either, /WAR and counter tank your shit.

[Jeryhn]

MNK doesn't need protect nor shell in an exp party, and don't bother using Utsusemi either, /WAR and counter tank your shit.

Over time, it would be more MP efficient, and therefore more EXP efficient to me and the rest of the party, to just Raise 1 your sorry ass every ~50 seconds rather than Cure you.

[Muirlyn]

MNK doesn't need protect nor shell in an exp party, and don't bother using Utsusemi either, /WAR and counter tank your shit.

Over time, it would be more MP efficient, and therefore more EXP efficient to me and the rest of the party, to just Raise 1 your sorry ass every ~50 seconds rather than Cure you.

Yep, that's how we get 30k+/h with MNK/WARs, raise them every 50 seconds. But hey we just had a party gimping a RDM60 at greater colibri camp, he was the only healer and managed to keep us alive from the pecking furrsomething, you must be one of those sucky mages I'd guess ugh? And if you really think MNKs need pro/shell, then I'm sorry for you for not knowing shit about MNK.

[Septimus]

Why are we debating this? Rdm = fun job and fun melee toy, good for soloing alot of stuff and playing around. Rdm /= melee DD capable of producing anything near melee DD #s. And we just proved that a walmart DD would own any rdm, hell a nakid DD is all you need.

If they were locked Destroyers, then I would consider that MNK Wal-Mart, otherwise he needs Wagh Baghnakhs for that qualifier. (And no hand-to-hand merits.) And I think you are forgetting how seriously gimp some DDs are, like dual wielding two Martial Axes or wearing Narashima Vest when they could wear Hauby.

But the whole point is that Red Mage is not a fun job. RDM is a mind-numbingly horrible spiral of misery and anguish in end-game and gets absolutely no recognition for what they do. (Except for some reason people on this server like RDM/NIN to tank things, which is so horribly inefficient that it boggles the mind.) Sometimes people want to do something for fun other than cast refresh and haste ad infinitum. Despite all that has been said and even with a geared up WAR/NIN that makes monsters cry, I still want to try out a 4 RDM/NIN 2 BRD party just because.

[Jeryhn]

MNK doesn't need protect nor shell in an exp party, and don't bother using Utsusemi either, /WAR and counter tank your shit.

Over time, it would be more MP efficient, and therefore more EXP efficient to me and the rest of the party, to just Raise 1 your sorry ass every ~50 seconds rather than Cure you.

Yep, that's how we get 30k+/h with MNK/WARs, raise them every 50 seconds. But hey we just had a party gimping a RDM60 at greater colibri camp, he was the only healer and managed to keep us alive from the pecking furrsomething, you must be one of those sucky mages I'd guess ugh? And if you really think MNKs need pro/shell, then I'm sorry for you for not knowing shit about MNK.

I was mostly referring to the fact that you would gimp up a party going MNK/WAR (and I assume Counterstance). I make no allusions to whether or not a Monk needs Protect or Shell, loldefense after all, but I also don't give a fuck if you die in merit parties for using a stupid stupid job combo.

[chapstick]

I still want to try out a 4 RDM/NIN 2 BRD party just because.

Honestly that sounds kinda fun lol. All the en-spells, etc. Everyone could take care of themselves. Doubtful that it'd be as fast as a typical merit party, but since it's all RDM for DD (hell, maybe one of the brds could melee too >.>) there wouldn't be any argument between the RDMs and Melees over who is superior.

Personally I wouldn't try to argue that RDM is a better DD in merits. That spot is better taken by a well-geared MNK or WAR or NIN, while the rdm sticks to back line duties.