Melee as RDM

[Isiolia]

The original posts in this thread weren't about beating a naked MNK or any of that. It was to see if anyone had good data/setups on what a RDM could potentially do. For people who feel they know tons about melee, why not put that knowledge towards theorizing how it *could* work, rather than not?

If you really want to see how you stack up, don't ask the MNK to wait for you to buff and all that shit, you are only trying to gimp the MNK more and more in order to get close. Obviously, the more you gimp the MNK, the closer you will get.

Technically, if things are "equal" between the two, the only buffing that would need to be done is Enspell, and Utsu: Ni if applicable. Assuming that the RDM is carried by the other support to the same extent that the MNK is.

[Whatinthe]

The original posts in this thread weren't about beating a naked MNK or any of that. It was to see if anyone had good data/setups on what a RDM could potentially do. For people who feel they know tons about melee, why not put that knowledge towards theorizing how it *could* work, rather than not?

Thank you for noticing that. I tried to steer away from the why and more on the how, and I appreciate the advice people have given me so far.

[Neosutra]

The original posts in this thread weren't about beating a naked MNK or any of that. It was to see if anyone had good data/setups on what a RDM could potentially do. For people who feel they know tons about melee, why not put that knowledge towards theorizing how it *could* work, rather than not?

Thank you for noticing that. I tried to steer away from the why and more on the how, and I appreciate the advice people have given me so far.

I think the point is, that the people that know tons about melee, are telling you it cant/wont work, on any lvl of performance that would be acceptable in even the crappiest meripo. There isnt some secret the experienced melee DDs are keeping from the RDMs to keep them from reaching their potential, the job simply just doesnt have it. End of story.

[Judai]

At the start the guy thought he had a chance to keep up with BB MNKs and Ridill WARs... l o l. Seriosuly, WARs and MNKs hit around 6-700 Attack in Merits parties while maintaining 90% Acc, I don't see how a RDM could hit that level of Attack and still keep the Acc boost. Enspells aren't going to generate anywhere near the same damage potential WARs and MNKs put out.

Just sitting in Whitegate with no food or brd, with zerk up I have 540Atk in TP gear, 560 in WS gear. A Sis Kebabi puts me at 611/633Atk and BRD near or over 700 I assume. That's with 19%Haste and 90+% hit rate in merit parties. RDM is severly lacking in the fundamental skills and boosts that melee normally have.

The point is, a Naked MNK actually did beat a fully buffed and geared RDM. If you think it's possible to get close to their merit party performance, gl. People pointed out what needed to be done to be an ok DD. Boost Atk, Acc, Haste like any other DD, /war can be nice for zerk and such. Yet, people still wonder why people say the RDM won't be close to real DD numbers. It's because they simply don't get the inate Attack and Accuracy boosts and skills WAR and MNK have, not to mention two WSs that blow anything RDM can get out of the water. Things like Focus, Berserk and Aggressor are huge boosts.

Is it possible a RDM can be an ok DD in a merit party? Sure. It is going to come anywhere near another actual Melee DD? No.

People gave advice and he keeps shooting the actual DD down who tell him why MNKs and WARs do what they do and tell him RDMs won't compare.

[gemini~cusp]

http://www.little-gamers.com/comics/00001202.jpg
http://www.little-gamers.com/comics/00001202.jpg

Had to do the comic strip lol!

But seriously rdm melee isn't so bad in the early lvls and hell I'd take that claim as far as 40 but higher the level goes 'til merit parties worse they fare against real DD's. Rdm would at most fare decently with alot of gil invested and might impress other DD's maybe as far as rdm goes; they might say "hey I didn't think an rdm would do that decently". But realistically unless it was for kicks or an LS party, any pickup that had their Rdm meleeing should just boot them if they continually meleed Its just a wasted slot via damage another DD could do. What evidence do I have to support it? Really I think we all know the answer at heart: Rdm's are support jobs and won't touch a true front-line DD job in any parse that was realistic unless it was a wal mart player.

[Whatinthe]

At the start the guy thought he had a chance to keep up with BB MNKs and Ridill WARs...

What I asked was how would it compare against, not keep up with. The difference between a top-notch DD and an average DD can be huge, sometimes to the tunes of over 2x difference in damage.

At what point would it become acceptable for any DD to actually "deal damage". Obviously people still invite non-BB MNKs and non-ridill WAR although they would never keep up with their top-notch counterparts. So if a RDM could deal 50% damage of a top-notch DD, would it become an acceptable DD? 75%? What is the cut-off point here instead of saying lolmelee, even though by that standard any non-BB MNK and non-ridill WAR would all be considered lol.

[Celebrindor]

But seriously rdm melee isn't so bad in the early lvls and hell I'd take that claim as far as 40 but higher the level goes 'til merit parties worse they fare against real DD's. Rdm would at most fare decently with alot of gil invested and might impress other DD's maybe as far as rdm goes; they might say "hey I didn't think an rdm would do that decently". But realistically unless it was for kicks or an LS party, any pickup that had their Rdm meleeing should just boot them if they continually meleed Its just a wasted slot via damage another DD could do. What evidence do I have to support it? Really I think we all know the answer at heart: Rdm's are support jobs and won't touch a true front-line DD job in any parse that was realistic unless it was a wal mart player.

To be honest, I think that's all most RDM melee advocates (and those of us curious as to the potential) are looking for. We KNOW we'll never compare to a reall DD job played by a person who knows what they are doing- and we're not looking to. But to use a parse with a RDM/NIN using a frikkin Kclub against T mobs is just complete idiocy.

At least use a comparision of justice/joy or blau/joy, maxxed dagger/sword merits (as they apply), appropriate haste/acc/atk gear as needed (and tweaked through constant parsings to find that exact recipe that works best for a RDM), capped enspell damage, and let's see what's possible. Not "let's see if a RDM/NIN can outparse "so-and-so". Any RDM who truly believes they can outparse a smart player with acceptable and appropriate gear on a real DD job shouldn't be a part of this discussion.

Its more about seeing the potential that's there within the job itself, not RDMs trying to supplant DDs in their primary role. No one with half a brain is saying that's truly possible.....just let us see through actual testing and perfecting setups what is possible. And to have some fun with LSmates, not unsuspecting invitees.

[Judai]

At the start the guy thought he had a chance to keep up with BB MNKs and Ridill WARs...

What I asked was how would it compare against, not keep up with. The difference between a top-notch DD and an average DD can be huge, sometimes to the tunes of over 2x difference in damage.

At what point would it become acceptable for any DD to actually "deal damage". Obviously people still invite non-BB MNKs and non-ridill WAR although they would never keep up with their top-notch counterparts. So if a RDM could deal 50% damage of a top-notch DD, would it become an acceptable DD? 75%? What is the cut-off point here instead of saying lolmelee, even though by that standard any non-BB MNK and non-ridill WAR would all be considered lol.

Actually, I have parsed pretty close to Ebody/Ridill WARs and such on my WAR.(which doesn't even have haidate yet~) Ridills and BBs do not make as big a difference as people think, good players with good merits and solid gear can keep up. I have absolutely no idea how far back RDM DD would be, you would have to try it out and see. I personally don't see any way for it to keep up much at all though. Usually everyone is pulling their weight in our merit parties and in the end the difference isn't much(5% or so), so I would consider it pretty bad if one of my DDs fell behind more then 10%. Which prolly adds up to doing around 70% of my damage. If you can't do that, you are holding the party up.

[rrynn]

i'd say a more interesting test (which i would run myself if i ran a parcer but i dont, so i'm hoping to give someone the idea) would be to see if a rdm did a useful amount of damage meleeing WHILE carrying out normal duties.

take a pt setup like brd/nin brd/whm nin/war dd dd rdm/blu to colibris. i pt there often in this setup as rdm/whm, and quite frankly its boring and never a strain on my mp pool. i am never riding my convert timer even if i dont rest, and find myself casting enfeebles/nukes just to make the birdies reflect them so i can -na/cure to undo the damage. with a competent party, i bet i could melee and still keep up a haste cycle, as well as still casting dia II and slow.

why blu? you dont need any -na spells on colibris, you can slow them and who cares who it reflects on, they're all hasted, and dia generally hits a shadow, if not just counter with regen. would have to skip para so as not to make the brd/whm nuts, but, para barely has time to proc on short lived birdies anyway. /blu lets you keep curaga (healing breeze) and doesn't lower your mp pool as much as something like /war would, while still giving you access to vorpal blade. (altho, if you dont have a joytoy for piercing bonus i'd suggest a good dagger for eviseration)

gear up for haste and acc, with attack where you cant get either stat, and carry enough mp gear for a few free cure IVs after vert only. mnd in every slot except weapon/shield/amo to make slow worthwhile and to boost healing breeze. gearswap str/acc for vorpal blade of course (and a gorget if you have it). haste gear is mroe about getting more enspelled swings in then getting more tp for our admittedly weak wses, if you lack joy or justice go with a fast dagger (altho one that still has a decent base attack, not the hornet's needle you farm tw/ep stuff with). dont go with a kracken club, our lack of decent ws with club and low native skill mean you'd have to dump way too much haste/attack for acc to even be worthwhile, plus clubs are not the best thing to be hitting birdies with.

in this party setup, with the rdm playing backline, each dd would be doing approximately 33% of the dmg in a perfect world. in order for this experiment to be considered a success, i'd say the rdm would have to do 15% of the dmg, WITHOUT ever letting haste fall or letting people die or skimping on dia II/slow etc. the idea wouldnt be to equal the dds, it would be to see if it is possible to do enough damage to be worthwhile WHILE still doing your job as a rdm.

[aurik]

Doubt you'd pull 15% even with joy while keeping up a haste cycle and debuffs. Maybe 10% if your melees aren't strong and you have all the gear to max it out.

[rrynn]

the one time i did try, i had less then what i'd consider optimal gear, and according to the person who parced it did 9%. which i would consider a waste, but i was bored and the xp/hr did not go down once i started poking birdies so no one complained. am assuing something like:

tp gear: joytoy or justice or blau, acc shield that i cant spell properly, tiphia sting or stones for justice, walmart turban, chiv chain(peacock charm if possible), brutal, suppa, scorpion harness(+1) or assault jerkin or assault point body or even that 6acc/6attack "i cant wear a hauby but i want to" body, dusk hands, snipers/woodsmans, amnets +1 or foragers, swift or speed belt, princes or nashira or dusk pants, dusk feet.

ws: swap in ohat, scorp harness if not tping in it, tarsque mitts +1, str rings, life belt or warwolfs, princes slops if not tping in them, possibly lolwise boots+1 for acc, and a gorget.

instead of the "hey i was farming eps earlier so i happend to have a few peices of random melee crap on me w my casting gear" that i was wearing when i tried, and /blu instead of /whm, would easily get another 6%. (also assuming full merits in sword/dagger because, with our less then A+ skill trying to poke at anything above an EM without merits is just silly imho)

[Whatinthe]

Actually, I have parsed pretty close to Ebody/Ridill WARs and such on my WAR.(which doesn't even have haidate yet~) Ridills and BBs do not make as big a difference as people think, good players with good merits and solid gear can keep up. Usually everyone is pulling their weight in our merit parties and in the end the difference isn't much(5% or so), so I would consider it pretty bad if one of my DDs fell behind more then 10%. Which prolly adds up to doing around 70% of my damage. If you can't do that, you are holding the party up.

See, therein lies the fallacy. Anyone reading your post would say "Hey Judai, your WAR must be pretty good." But on the same token, anytime a RDM (or some other unwanted DD) posts a parse where they parsed "pretty close" to another real DD, the inevitable stream of "that DD must've sucked" always comes, regardless of whether that was actually the case. Yes, skill can have a lot of impact on how one does on a parse, but it can only take you so far.

So based on your 70% figure, I'll say that if a RDM can post a minimum of 50% of a top-notch DD, they could be considered a potential DD. So the question now is whether that's possible or not - I think it is, especially if you factor in the pierce-weak bonus on stuff like Colibris.

[aurik]

Post a parse, because it's already been shown that RDM doesn't even post 70% to a completely naked monk.

[rrynn]

cant because it wasnt my parce, as i play on a lolps2. and, btw, the rdm who parced horribly versus a nekkid mnk was using a gear strategy i think is assanine. i wouldnt consider a test of a flawed strat such as that to be a fair test of rdm melee.

i'll never claim that rdm can parce anywhere near a real dd, but, i would like to see someone who can run a parcer try my version of the experiment. i think that altho we would still lag behind the real dds that it would at least be a worhtwhile contribution while still doing our normal support thing.

[aurik]

cant because it wasnt my parce, as i play on a lolps2. and, btw, the rdm who parced horribly versus a nekkid mnk was using a gear strategy i think is assanine. i wouldnt consider a test of a flawed strat such as that to be a fair test of rdm melee.

So then conduct a fair test and post it?

i'll never claim that rdm can parce anywhere near a real dd, but, i would like to see someone who can run a parcer try my version of the experiment. i think that altho we would still lag behind the real dds that it would at least be a worhtwhile contribution while still doing our normal support thing.

I think you'd lag behind even the mouth-breathing retard wars, though if you don't afk every 10 minutes like them and then mysteriously DC after you get your merit, that would be a plus.

[Cadena]

Honestly, in a good/fast merit party, I don't see the RDM having time to take more than a few swings while performing normal duties as well. As RDM, you're constantly casting: healing, status cures, haste, refresh, and debuffs. And at north camp which is my favorite spot...sometimes you have take care of bad repops or whatever. The biggest problem I have with meleeing is that when you're up close at a mob, you don't have the same perspective and it's another thing to focus on or distract you from your normal duties.

[ninjafox]

To add to what Cad just said, with all the casting it'd be tough even to get any decent swings in, cuz if you use any macros you'd be changing weapons with it to get the most out of those spells.

[Isiolia]

True, and that would be why most of the time we don't advocate a hybrid style for a RDM. Most of this is talking about fully focusing on DD though.


Far as ATT numbers and all. I look at my BST/NIN setup to start with for a "decent" DD. As many people have pointed out, a well-geared BST can keep up with many NQ DDs just on melee damage alone, much less our pet damage. That's certainly been my experience, as I've outparsed a number of DD on it, including MNKs and WARs. Good/Great ones, sure, I don't keep up with, but I tend to do well against your standard NQ AH variety.

But the point is that I don't have stellar melee stats/gear on that job, and yet I still seem to output decent enough damage.
TP Setup is basically this:
http://www.theoretical-limit.com/blog/soil_gorget.jpg

'cept that I use a PCC in the neck slot, and have a Swift Belt now. I use sushi, since I have next to no melee merits.

If that level of stats work for a BST, which likewise has no DD traits or JAs, why would it not work for a RDM? Like people said, not to be on the level of a Ridill WAR or something, but decent enough that it'd have situations where it might be viable to use.

[SassiAsura]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7W_sMFoyMs

[Judai]

If that level of stats work for a BST, which likewise has no DD traits or JAs, why would it not work for a RDM? Like people said, not to be on the level of a Ridill WAR or something, but decent enough that it'd have situations where it might be viable to use.

The things you take for granted. Gear like Hauberk, Haidate, Temp Axe and the thing that RDM is severly lacking. A real WS like Rampage.