Melee as RDM

[Neosutra]

If that level of stats work for a BST, which likewise has no DD traits or JAs, why would it not work for a RDM? Like people said, not to be on the level of a Ridill WAR or something, but decent enough that it'd have situations where it might be viable to use.

The things you take for granted. Gear like Hauberk, Haidate, Temp Axe and the thing that RDM is severly lacking. A real WS like Rampage.

Ya i think basic gear access alone throws bst way ahead of rdm, let alone more melee based stats. Toss in the fact that you get rampage (vs. rdms horrendous assortment of WSs) and your leaps and bounds above any melee rdm.

[Yutuyu]

And you can top it off with Jug pet damage, if your char alone isn't outparsing the silly melee RDM.

[Isiolia]

The things you take for granted. Gear like Hauberk, Haidate, Temp Axe and the thing that RDM is severly lacking. A real WS like Rampage.

RDM could wear an Assault Jerkin, or SH/Pahluwan, or possibly a Morrigan's Robe as well, though few would have it. Granted, they're not the nice balance of stats that a Hauby provides, but if you're resigned to sushi anyway...ATT heavy could possibly work. Though not optimal, I've definitely seen WARs in AJs, and even SHs...

Haidate, sure. I would think that a RDM might instead wear Dusk, which seem to work well enough for melee that have them. Or there are ACC pieces to wear as well, and Haste is available on Nashira. Again, not quite the level of Haidate...but plenty of melee get by without them too. Personally, I dunno, my RDM melee setup uses Relic pants for the enhanced spikes, though technically I get 2.5 acc outta the DEX on 'em.

Temperance Axe is 4 base damage higher, but also a bit slower than a Joyeuse (276 delay versus 224). You'd also get a piercing bonus on a good number of merit mobs with a Joyeuse that you wouldn't enjoy with an axe.

Far as Rampage goes...I guess you haven't experienced Rampage in the hands of a BST. It's a good day if you can break 500 damage on a regular basis on merit level mobs. From what I've experienced and read about, pushing a 350-500 range WS with a RDM is far from impossible (I saw 400-500 range Vorpals in the Mire using sushi), and that would be reasonably on par with a BST's Rampage.

Ya i think basic gear access alone throws bst way ahead of rdm, let alone more melee based stats.

The thing is, BST really doesn't have great melee stats.
You can play around with this http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/ which is accurate as far as stats I have to reference are concerned.
BST/NIN and RDM/NIN have the same base STR. BST/NIN has 3 more DEX. (at least, with Mithra).

And you can top it off with Jug pet damage, if your char alone isn't outparsing the silly melee RDM.

It's besides the point really. I'm not trying to make RDM outparse my BST, I was simply taking the standpoint of that my BST has comparably poor melee JAs/traits/stats next to a WAR or something. The way I've geared it though, it tends to perform at a decent level despite that.
I'd be the first to say, a WAR in the same gear would outparse me by quite a bit. Fact is though, that there are an awful lot of melee out there in substandard gear...

[Yutuyu]

Fact is though, that there are an awful lot of melee out there in substandard gear...

I don't see why people are obsessing about their (potential) ability to do better than the bottom rung. Busting your ass to be a step above complete retards isn't exactly what I'd call a gainful endeavor.

[aurik]

Don't forget that BST axe skill is A+, while RDM is a woeful B, a 26 point gap. Furthermore, BST gets a pet to help him deal damage, hauberk, assault earring, hecatomb, and can use a fat weapon (49 damage, +5 acc, +15 att) mainhand for a much better weaponskill than Vorpal.

[Loren]

I don't see why people are obsessing about their (potential) ability to do better than the bottom rung. Busting your ass to be a step above complete retards isn't exactly what I'd call a gainful endeavor.

Who's obsessing? We're just discussing.
Especially for a job whose concept is a multi-disciplined dilettante, perfecting the melee side can be seen as a way of maxing out your character. I don't think any intelligent RDM thinks the job is designed to match or exceed the dedicated melee, but that's no reason to discourage the policeman from painting or the accountant from bodybuilding when afforded the leisure time to do so.

The major rare/ex items that elude me for melee RDM are Goliard Saio and Swift Belt. Once I get those to finally drop, I'll generate some data.

[Isiolia]

I don't see why people are obsessing about their (potential) ability to do better than the bottom rung. Busting your ass to be a step above complete retards isn't exactly what I'd call a gainful endeavor.

Because it might be fun? FFXI in general is a complete waste of time.

Besides that, some of us are simply interested to see how far we can push the job. As you can see, there's not exactly a wealth of information on this aspect of it. There have been how many people posting here speaking from actual, personal experience?

Don't forget that BST axe skill is A+, while RDM is a woeful B, a 26 point gap. Furthermore, BST gets a pet to help him deal damage, hauberk, assault earring, hecatomb, and can use a fat weapon (49 damage, +5 acc, +15 att) mainhand for a much better weaponskill than Vorpal.

A-, no job in the game has A+ axe.

Also, I'm comparing things from the angle of -my- BST. I'm not factoring pet damage in when I say I outparsed people. I wear the same earrings on that as I can on RDM (Brutal, Suppa), and don't own a scrap of Hecatomb. I have some of the best weapons available to the job (Maneater, Juggernaut, Temperance) and that's still how Rampage is for me.

I'm not saying BST can't be better, it definitely can be. It's simply that my personal experience is that a moderate Haste build with a double attack weapon in the off-hand, and less than 400 ATT can do decently. Is it going to be competitive in an all-out 25k/hr party? I doubt it.
If you can push something similar on a RDM, why wouldn't it be able to perform similarly? It's the same math, right?

[aurik]

I'm not saying BST can't be better, it definitely can be. It's simply that my personal experience is that a moderate Haste build with a double attack weapon in the off-hand, and less than 400 ATT can do decently. Is it going to be competitive in an all-out 25k/hr party? I doubt it.
If you can push something similar on a RDM, why wouldn't it be able to perform similarly? It's the same math, right?

Well there's a reason why (generally) nobody invites BST to a burn party, and that because (generally) their damage sucks.

RDM isn't going to even match BST damage (before pet is included) because it suffers from 19 lower attack and 18 lower accuracy, uses vorpal instead of rampage, and doesn't get Haub/Heca/Haidate. It will trail by probably 30+ accuracy while also maintaining less haste and less attack.

[Isiolia]

Well there's a reason why (generally) nobody invites BST to a burn party, and that because (generally) their damage sucks.

True, though like I mentioned, I've outparsed MNKs and WARs before -and not ones wearing full AF or something either. Again, I mention it not to try and make a case for BST or whatever. Simply saying that that's my experience with taking a DD that's at a significant disadvantage and seeing it perform at a decent level, even without having every last thing it can possibly get.

Not that it tends to matter, since people tend to invite based on the perception of the job, and like you mentioned, BST is pretty much at the bottom of the list as far as that goes.

RDM isn't going to even match BST damage (before pet is included) because it suffers from 19 lower attack and 18 lower accuracy, uses vorpal instead of rampage, and doesn't get Haub/Heca/Haidate. It will trail by probably 30+ accuracy while also maintaining less haste and less attack.

Depends on the RDM and the BST though. A RDM with fully merited sword + Suppa will be pretty much on par with an unmerited BST for weapon skill level. Personally, I have next to no combat merits for any job...so I wouldn't consider my results to show the full potential.
I do suspect that a fully merited RDM with better melee gear than I have for it (I'm missing several big ATT pieces for one) could probably come close to my BST (or beat it), and in turn I've seen my BST outparse a number of DDs. That's really why I brought my BST into this discussion.


Nobody seems to be trying to make RDM out to be a top end DD though. We just want to see how far it can go. No, it won't have a place as a DD in a 20k/hr merit party, but what if you're just in a party with friends getting some buffer XP back?
It does not take a whole lot to be a solid DD for a 10k/hr party, and that's what a good number of people wind up in.

[aurik]

Well there's a reason why (generally) nobody invites BST to a burn party, and that because (generally) their damage sucks.

True, though like I mentioned, I've outparsed MNKs and WARs before -and not ones wearing full AF or something either. Again, I mention it not to try and make a case for BST or whatever. Simply saying that that's my experience with taking a DD that's at a significant disadvantage and seeing it perform at a decent level, even without having every last thing it can possibly get.

Not that it tends to matter, since people tend to invite based on the perception of the job, and like you mentioned, BST is pretty much at the bottom of the list as far as that goes.

[quote:19564]RDM isn't going to even match BST damage (before pet is included) because it suffers from 19 lower attack and 18 lower accuracy, uses vorpal instead of rampage, and doesn't get Haub/Heca/Haidate. It will trail by probably 30+ accuracy while also maintaining less haste and less attack.

Depends on the RDM and the BST though. A RDM with fully merited sword + Suppa will be pretty much on par with an unmerited BST for weapon skill level. Personally, I have next to no combat merits for any job...so I wouldn't consider my results to show the full potential.
I do suspect that a fully merited RDM with better melee gear than I have for it (I'm missing several big ATT pieces for one) could probably come close to my BST (or beat it), and in turn I've seen my BST outparse a number of DDs. That's really why I brought my BST into this discussion.


Nobody seems to be trying to make RDM out to be a top end DD though. We just want to see how far it can go. No, it won't have a place as a DD in a 20k/hr merit party, but what if you're just in a party with friends getting some buffer XP back?
It does not take a whole lot to be a solid DD for a 10k/hr party, and that's what a good number of people wind up in.[/quote:19564]

So wait, you think your unmerited bst is some sort of standard that you hope your rdm can live up to?

Talk about low standards...

[Septimus]

Well there's a reason why (generally) nobody invites BST to a burn party, and that because (generally) their damage sucks.

True, though like I mentioned, I've outparsed MNKs and WARs before -and not ones wearing full AF or something either. Again, I mention it not to try and make a case for BST or whatever. Simply saying that that's my experience with taking a DD that's at a significant disadvantage and seeing it perform at a decent level, even without having every last thing it can possibly get.

Not that it tends to matter, since people tend to invite based on the perception of the job, and like you mentioned, BST is pretty much at the bottom of the list as far as that goes.

[quote:18dcb]RDM isn't going to even match BST damage (before pet is included) because it suffers from 19 lower attack and 18 lower accuracy, uses vorpal instead of rampage, and doesn't get Haub/Heca/Haidate. It will trail by probably 30+ accuracy while also maintaining less haste and less attack.

Depends on the RDM and the BST though. A RDM with fully merited sword + Suppa will be pretty much on par with an unmerited BST for weapon skill level. Personally, I have next to no combat merits for any job...so I wouldn't consider my results to show the full potential.
I do suspect that a fully merited RDM with better melee gear than I have for it (I'm missing several big ATT pieces for one) could probably come close to my BST (or beat it), and in turn I've seen my BST outparse a number of DDs. That's really why I brought my BST into this discussion.


Nobody seems to be trying to make RDM out to be a top end DD though. We just want to see how far it can go. No, it won't have a place as a DD in a 20k/hr merit party, but what if you're just in a party with friends getting some buffer XP back?
It does not take a whole lot to be a solid DD for a 10k/hr party, and that's what a good number of people wind up in.

So wait, you think your unmerited bst is some sort of standard that you hope your rdm can live up to?

Talk about low standards...[/quote:18dcb]

Could you just shut up already? Did you eat a huge box of FFXIFlux-O's today?

We get your opinion. Yeah we get it. The whole point of this is from a bunch of really bored Red Mages who want to do something different with their job instead of the normal refresh/haste/wrists that comes with the job. No one is looking for a "oh yeah that would be awesome" echo chamber, but do you have to leak in every post you make in this thread?

Seriously, you're like 5 seconds away from the BRP rule.

[Isiolia]

So wait, you think your unmerited bst is some sort of standard that you hope your rdm can live up to?

Talk about low standards...

Not exactly. More a point of reference. I've seen what my BST can do, and I don't see the stats I have on that as being completely out of the realm of what a RDM can achieve as well.

So it's more an educated guess at the performance range a fully geared/merited RDM might fall into. Which, while not on par with a top tier DD, is not all that bad either.

If the discussion was over how do I make my -character- the best DD possible, then people coming in and scoffing at RDM DD would be justified. Heck, I'd be pointing out its shortcomings as well. That's not really what we were talking about though.

[Neosutra]

So wait, you think your unmerited bst is some sort of standard that you hope your rdm can live up to?

Talk about low standards...

Not exactly. More a point of reference. I've seen what my BST can do, and I don't see the stats I have on that as being completely out of the realm of what a RDM can achieve as well.

So it's more an educated guess at the performance range a fully geared/merited RDM might fall into. Which, while not on par with a top tier DD, is not all that bad either.

If the discussion was over how do I make my -character- the best DD possible, then people coming in and scoffing at RDM DD would be justified. Heck, I'd be pointing out its shortcomings as well. That's not really what we were talking about though.

No.

We are not saying, or agreeing with the conclusion that "while not comparing to a good DD, rdm melee isnt that bad when done right". We/I are saying that due to the JAs, Stats, Gear, LOW WEAPON RATING(big one), no good DoT WSs(another big one), and having to spend a ton of time casting to maintain even bare minimum of extra damage from enspells, that:
Rdm melee IS NOT a valid/good/ok melee in -any- respect. Can they physically engage the mob and do a little damage? Yes, ofcourse, but they will not/can not put out enough damage to be labeled as even mediocre in the melee DD category.
You keep falling back to "you guys are comparing it to such and such job, thats not fair, all im saying is it can perform ok". It cant, any any aspect, perform well enough to even be called an average DD, end of story. When you have to strive at your job to be ranked just under the most pathetic (and not even that high), then your just proving what everyone has been saying. Luckily there are a ton of other melee jobs you can go lvl ANY time you want should you feel the desire to wack at something.

[Obev]

Don't forget that BST axe skill is A+, while RDM is a woeful B, a 26 point gap.

I wish to enshrine this sentence as the only time I've ever seen Aurik to be flat out wrong. Beastmaster is only A- in axe, same as Warrior, making it a nineteen point skill difference. Only fourteen if you're counting the Suppanomimi.

[Isiolia]

We are not saying, or agreeing with the conclusion that "while not comparing to a good DD, rdm melee isnt that bad when done right". We/I are saying that due to the JAs, Stats, Gear, LOW WEAPON RATING(big one), no good DoT WSs(another big one), and having to spend a ton of time casting to maintain even bare minimum of extra damage from enspells, that:
Rdm melee IS NOT a valid/good/ok melee in -any- respect. Can they physically engage the mob and do a little damage? Yes, ofcourse, but they will not/can not put out enough damage to be labeled as even mediocre in the melee DD category.

I've given some counters to the gear issues presented, as well as compared overall stats. Enspell is all of 3 seconds to cast every few minutes. Have you tried making a hypothetical build, or are you just making assumptions based on your perception of the job?

The thing is, you're just sorta missing how some of us are approaching this. What if the thread title was "$500 PC build"? Obviously, that wouldn't be the end-all computer...but it'd be an interesting challenge to see how much you could squeeze into the budget. At least for some people. You'd likely even get some comparisons to more expensive computers, you know, to get an idea of the performance.
Arguably, those with extensive knowledge of current PC hardware would be able to give valuable input, and most likely wouldn't just jump in to say how much cheap PCs suck.
Even for people who could just go drop $1500 on a computer, it might make for an interesting discussion.

Yeah, we can go level a melee job if we feel like it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be an interesting challenge to see what we could possibly do with RDM.

[Ambir]

The thing is, you're just sorta missing how some of us are approaching this. What if the thread title was "$500 PC build"? Obviously, that wouldn't be the end-all computer...but it'd be an interesting challenge to see how much you could squeeze into the budget. At least for some people. You'd likely even get some comparisons to more expensive computers, you know, to get an idea of the performance.
Arguably, those with extensive knowledge of current PC hardware would be able to give valuable input, and most likely wouldn't just jump in to say how much cheap PCs suck.

It doesn't matter how much money you spend on a PC though if you're stuck with a P2 300 processor...

I have BST and RDM at 75 as well, and there's just no way to boost all my RDMs mellee stats to something comparable to my unmerited BST. Any one area I can probably boost, but to do that will leave everything else way behind. And, while my BST can actually wear enough gear to compete with a decent DD, the lack of any JAs from my BST main means not being able to compete.

[aurik]

Seriously, you're like 5 seconds away from the BRP rule.

Which BRP rule?
You mean the one for general discussion? (which this is not)
You mean the one about derailing a topic? (when all of my posts are about red mage melee)

Because you don't like my opinion is a pretty lame reason to threaten me.

[Neosutra]

We are not saying, or agreeing with the conclusion that "while not comparing to a good DD, rdm melee isnt that bad when done right". We/I are saying that due to the JAs, Stats, Gear, LOW WEAPON RATING(big one), no good DoT WSs(another big one), and having to spend a ton of time casting to maintain even bare minimum of extra damage from enspells, that:
Rdm melee IS NOT a valid/good/ok melee in -any- respect. Can they physically engage the mob and do a little damage? Yes, ofcourse, but they will not/can not put out enough damage to be labeled as even mediocre in the melee DD category.

I've given some counters to the gear issues presented, as well as compared overall stats. Enspell is all of 3 seconds to cast every few minutes. Have you tried making a hypothetical build, or are you just making assumptions based on your perception of the job?

The thing is, you're just sorta missing how some of us are approaching this. What if the thread title was "$500 PC build"? Obviously, that wouldn't be the end-all computer...but it'd be an interesting challenge to see how much you could squeeze into the budget. At least for some people. You'd likely even get some comparisons to more expensive computers, you know, to get an idea of the performance.
Arguably, those with extensive knowledge of current PC hardware would be able to give valuable input, and most likely wouldn't just jump in to say how much cheap PCs suck.
Even for people who could just go drop $1500 on a computer, it might make for an interesting discussion.

Yeah, we can go level a melee job if we feel like it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be an interesting challenge to see what we could possibly do with RDM.

1. Your counters for gear have done nothing but display the weakness in that field.

2. While enspells take only a few seconds to cast, thats added time away from fight, and as we already stated, wont even come close to helping filling the gap.

3. I dont have to post in hypothetical builds, as there is no "this build of tp/WS equipment rocks" setup that will make it work. It doesnt work.

Question: Can rdm be a decent melee.

Answer: No.

Reasons presented:

Low Weapon Rating
Low melee stats
No decent WS access.
Minimal Gear Access.
No DD JAs.

The few counters youve had for each main point have repeatedly been tossed out, as non of them fix any of these problems, let alone all of them.

[Isiolia]

It doesn't matter how much money you spend on a PC though if you're stuck with a P2 300 processor...

I have BST and RDM at 75 as well, and there's just no way to boost all my RDMs mellee stats to something comparable to my unmerited BST. Any one area I can probably boost, but to do that will leave everything else way behind. And, while my BST can actually wear enough gear to compete with a decent DD, the lack of any JAs from my BST main means not being able to compete.

The difference being that you start in a deficit, not that you're stuck with something for good. In either case, the limitations are what can make it interesting.

Obviously that deficit will limit how far it can be taken, and will necessitate prioritizing. The potential discussion here would have been what compromises would work best, and defining "works best" by how far up the DD ladder it allows you to get.

An ATT-heavy RDM build could be pretty similar to the BST pic I posted. The main thing I think would be ACC, but if you were assuming sushi on top of two fully merited B-weapons, maybe it could work. Lower Haste%, but a Blau/Joy combo is actually using weapons with higher DoT than Man/Temp.

1. Your counters for gear have done nothing but display the weakness in that field.

Really? From the standpoint of "if it's not a Hauby/Haidate it sux"? Because that's about all you've contributed. RDM options are limited compared to some, sure, but like I said above, that's why there's a discussion.

2. While enspells take only a few seconds to cast, thats added time away from fight, and as we already stated, wont even come close to helping filling the gap.

It's extra damage either way, and it depends on the situation. If you're in a Greater Colibri party where mobs are dying in 30 seconds, sure, that 3 seconds every 5 mobs or so might be noticeable. Other times it might be possible to do in between mobs.

3. I dont have to post in hypothetical builds, as there is no "this build of tp/WS equipment rocks" setup that will make it work. It doesnt work.

We've already established that it's about making the best of what RDM can do, and seeing where that falls. We already have people that have posted that it does work...to a degree.
How can you realistically contribute to the discussion without considering what it'd be possible to gear/merit a RDM with? That's the first part of the question that was asked.

Question: Can rdm be a decent melee.

Answer: No.

Reasons presented:

Low Weapon Rating
Low melee stats
No decent WS access.
Minimal Gear Access.
No DD JAs.

The initial point is not if it can be decent. It's what would be the most optimal setup, obviously within the restrictions of the class. Then, how well would that optimized setup stack up?

The weapon rating is low, but merits can help fix that.

Melee stats are low, sure, but might that mean a different strategy in dealing damage?

We can get Vorpal Blade with /WAR /DRK /BLU or /PLD. Evisceration with anything. Not the absolute best, but either are workable to an extent.

Gear is more midrange than minimal. WHM has minimal gear selection for DD, RDM can use a fair bit. Again, that's -why- there's a discussion to be had.

JAs, yeah, unless we sub WAR more or less...which tends to make a good case for it.

The few counters youve had for each main point have repeatedly been tossed out, as non of them fix any of these problems, let alone all of them.

...except that making the best of what we can do despite them is the entire point of the discussion. That's -why- there's a discussion. Or rather, there might have been one, if not for those of you who felt like pissing all over it.

[rrynn]

/shrug. i just look at it as something to do when i'm bored shitless at your standard 15ishk/hr colibri pt. the kind that runs on auto where you barely have to cure anyone and are just a haste dispencer. at that point /poking at the birdies with my joyuse probably contributes more to the party then getting bored and nuking the birdies (then laughing when they oneshot someone who's shadows are down).

in a *bad* 10k/hr colibri pt i'm probably too busy curing people who cant count their shadows properly and sleeping birds that the brd cant manage to to want to melee, and in a *great* 20k+/hr one i'm probably also too busy curebombing because every dd is /war and only one of them is a ninjar.

even with capped sword merits, and a pretty decent melee setup, i wouldnt dream of meleeing in a merit pt anywhere other then colibris or MAYBE birds in meadows. the peircing bonus is just enough to trip my damage into something i'd consider slightly more useful then just going nuke happy...if only bc annoying thigns w my enspells costs me much less mp. someplace like mamool north camp (my favorite camp actually) where i actually have to pay attention instead of just haste/haste/haste/diaII/slow/haste/curaga/repeat i am never bored enough to contemplate getting out my sword.