Melee as RDM

[Yutuyu]

All of this head-smacking-against-the-wall-fun makes me wanna make a topic about PLDs main healing in merit parties. Cause they do that about as well as RDMs melee DD.

[rrynn]

or better yet, pld main healing WHILE rdm melee dds. that might just be amusing enough to make up for the fact the xp per hr would prolly be worse then your standard semi retarted pickup at trolls.

[Celebrindor]

Isiola and Septimus (as well as many others, including the OP) have hit it on the head, and some of you simply refuse to let go of what you think we're trying to do.

you think we're trying to say that RDM can be an acceptable DD in a good merit party that shoots for the 15k/hr+ range, and that we can parse on level with smartly geared WARs, NINs and MNKs (not just the idiot walmart ones who don't properly gear up/merit up).

What you fail to see in almost every reasoned post by a RDM main in this thread is that we merely are trying to have a constructive debate on how far the job can be pushed toward the DD end, and where all that effort eventually leads to. Does it lead to something that can be at least respected as "wow that's impressive for a RDM"? Or will it always remain laughable? Has anyone built what the majority of people consider a solid build (not a friggin SH and Kraken Club) for meleeing and parsed the results? (including enspell damage pickup) What were those setups so we can study them and/or aim for them ourselves?

For the last time, we're not saying that we shoot to compare ourselves to the crappy DDs out there. We're not saying we can outparse a smart DD. We just want to know with all the pieces in place (merits, gear, etc) where we fall in terms of DD ranking.

[aurik]

you think we're trying to say that RDM can be an acceptable DD in a good merit party that shoots for the 15k/hr+ range, and that we can parse on level with smartly geared WARs, NINs and MNKs (not just the idiot walmart ones who don't properly gear up/merit up).

Thanks for telling me what I think; too bad you're wrong.

we merely are trying to have a constructive debate on how far the job can be pushed toward the DD end, and where all that effort eventually leads to. Does it lead to something that can be at least respected as "wow that's impressive for a RDM"? Or will it always remain laughable?

And I'm telling you what the answer is: not very far at all.

Thanks for the useless text markup, too.

[Neosutra]

Isiola and Septimus (as well as many others, including the OP) have hit it on the head, and some of you simply refuse to let go of what you think we're trying to do.

you think we're trying to say that RDM can be an acceptable DD in a good merit party that shoots for the 15k/hr+ range, and that we can parse on level with smartly geared WARs, NINs and MNKs (not just the idiot walmart ones who don't properly gear up/merit up).

What you fail to see in almost every reasoned post by a RDM main in this thread is that we merely are trying to have a constructive debate on how far the job can be pushed toward the DD end, and where all that effort eventually leads to. Does it lead to something that can be at least respected as "wow that's impressive for a RDM"? Or will it always remain laughable? Has anyone built what the majority of people consider a solid build (not a friggin SH and Kraken Club) for meleeing and parsed the results? (including enspell damage pickup) What were those setups so we can study them and/or aim for them ourselves?

For the last time, we're not saying that we shoot to compare ourselves to the crappy DDs out there. We're not saying we can outparse a smart DD. We just want to know with all the pieces in place (merits, gear, etc) where we fall in terms of DD ranking.

Ok, since we are changing our stance to fit the argument... I present to you the "Rdm melee DD push Far-O-Meter"

Far-O-Meter:
Rdm/whm with dagger --------|
Rdm/war with joyease-----------|
Rdm/war with best tp gear/WS gear --|
Rdm/nin with joy/justice and best gear ---|
The above rdm with max merits and excalibur ---|
A nakid drg -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
A nakid Mnk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Any other melee --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

And if you want to turn this into a "we were just asking for a good equipment setup" thread, dont bother, as its been mentioned 10,000 times.

[Celebrindor]

sorry for the markup if so offensive. I have a bad habit of writing novellas on forums and tend to do that out of habit to clarify my actual points.

The "you" wasn't directed at anyone in particular- don't know why you took that as me "telling you how you think" aurik. Merely was commenting on the general gist of all posts that seem to laugh off this topic as "you won't measure up, not worth it" and that line of thinking. Again, we're merely seeking a discussion on ideal setups based on gear, merits, camps, etc.....and then how that parses in general. NOT looking to beat out XXX DD.

[Yutuyu]

sorry for the markup if so offensive. I have a bad habit of writing novellas on forums and tend to do that out of habit to clarify my actual points.

The "you" wasn't directed at anyone in particular- don't know why you took that as me "telling you how you think" aurik. Merely was commenting on the general gist of all posts that seem to laugh off this topic as "you won't measure up, not worth it" and that line of thinking. Again, we're merely seeking a discussion on ideal setups based on gear, merits, camps, etc.....and then how that parses in general. NOT looking to beat out XXX DD.

I think the reason for the irritation has to do with those who've posted that RDM can actually do okay and equal out average-DDs. Many of us merely just have knee-jerk reactions when we hear the phrase "Meleeing RDM" from leveling 2 years ago with the first bunch of those idiots. People like Septimus and those who didn't feel the need to inflate the capability of RDM as a melee job, who only want to toy around with it for fun, and outright state they only want to do it on an LS party aren't really the reason why the discussion on RDM's capablility compared to other jobs has occured.

It's those who keep feeding the argument by continually listing the same inane points over and over again. If everyone would just say, "yes, RDMs are sub-par DDs, but we want to see what we can get it out of it" then the people arguing would go away. It's the others who keep saying, "but what about BST!" or arguing about the parse, or enspell damage, etc, that keep things going.

[Isiolia]

I think the reason for the irritation has to do with those who've posted that RDM can actually do okay and equal out average-DDs. Many of us merely just have knee-jerk reactions when we hear the phrase "Meleeing RDM" from leveling 2 years ago with the first bunch of those idiots. People like Septimus and those who didn't feel the need to inflate the capability of RDM as a melee job, who only want to toy around with it for fun, and outright state they only want to do it on an LS party aren't really the reason why the discussion on RDM's capablility compared to other jobs has occured.

It's those who keep feeding the argument by continually listing the same inane points over and over again. If everyone would just say, "yes, RDMs are sub-par DDs, but we want to see what we can get it out of it" then the people arguing would go away. It's the others who keep saying, "but what about BST!" or arguing about the parse, or enspell damage, etc, that keep things going.

Actually, people have said that we're just trying to see what we can get out of it. Multiple times, in multiple ways. The people arguing...are still here.

I explained why I compared it to my BST before. There are similar concessions that need to be made, and that's where my melee experience is.

Again, I have also seen parses and such posted elsewhere that indicate a general performance level that's possible. People that made 'em simply won't post here because of the harassment and bullying that goes on.

[Fridell]

All of this head-smacking-against-the-wall-fun makes me wanna make a topic about PLDs main healing in merit parties. Cause they do that about as well as RDMs melee DD.

Win
And RDM melee in PT is loldeadhorse and been since forever.

[Septimus]

Seriously, you're like 5 seconds away from the BRP rule.

Which BRP rule?
You mean the one for general discussion? (which this is not)
You mean the one about derailing a topic? (when all of my posts are about red mage melee)

Because you don't like my opinion is a pretty lame reason to threaten me.

I'm not threatening you. I am telling you that you are acting in a very BRP manner. (Shitting up a thread while adding nothing of value to it.) There is a huge difference.

I don't disagree with your opinion that RDM melee isn't stellar, otherwise I would have never leveled WAR. What I do disagree with your behavior in this thread, you have been nothing but a douche in every post. "This just in to the Situation Room: Red Mage melee isn't that great. We'll get to that breaking story after our story on the latest discovery that the Sun is very hot." Wow, thanks for the news flash Wolf Blitzer.

[aurik]

So analysing a test which measures RDM DD output under one configuration is nothing of value? So pointing out what a BST has that a RDM doesn't when someone compares the two is nothing of value?

Interesting idea of value you have: pro-RDM-melee posts such as "RDM will parse appreciably close to unmeritted BST" is value but "no it won't, you're still missing <x, y, z> and unmeritted BST is horrible anyway" as a response has none.

You see nothing of value because you don't like what I'm saying , but the truth is I've added more of value to this thread than you have with your threats. In your opinion, acting "BRP like" is functionally the same as disagreeing with you I guess...who is the one making valueless, derailing posts again?

[Whatinthe]

So analysing a test which measures RDM DD output under one configuration is nothing of value? So pointing out what a BST has that a RDM doesn't when someone compares the two is nothing of value?

You see nothing of value because you don't like what I'm saying , but the truth is I've added more of value to this thread than you have with your threats. In your opinion, acting "BRP like" is functionally the same as disagreeing with you I guess...who is the one making valueless, derailing posts again?

So if someone posted a parse where RDM came decently close (ie. over 70%) to a top-tier DD, would you take it at face value? Or would you find some excuse to try to invalidate the result, like others have done before?

All you did was rehash an flawed test conducted a year ago, to say RDM cannot do damage. A lot of people felt that it was not a good test to show what a RDM could have done, because of the way it was conducted. The fact that 4 or 5 people have already replied to this thread saying that test was flawed should be proof enough.

[aurik]

So analysing a test which measures RDM DD output under one configuration is nothing of value? So pointing out what a BST has that a RDM doesn't when someone compares the two is nothing of value?

You see nothing of value because you don't like what I'm saying , but the truth is I've added more of value to this thread than you have with your threats. In your opinion, acting "BRP like" is functionally the same as disagreeing with you I guess...who is the one making valueless, derailing posts again?

So if someone posted a parse where RDM came decently close (ie. over 70%) to a top-tier DD, would you take it at face value? Or would you find some excuse to try to invalidate the result, like others have done before?

All you did was rehash an flawed test conducted a year ago, to say RDM cannot do damage. A lot of people felt that it was not a good test to show what a RDM could have done, because of the way it was conducted. The fact that 4 or 5 people have already replied to this thread saying that test was flawed should be proof enough.

Apparently they're not convinced enough with their assertions to go provide parsed data!

[Tajin]

I agree with this:

I think the reason for the irritation has to do with those who've posted that RDM can actually do okay and equal out average-DDs. Many of us merely just have knee-jerk reactions when we hear the phrase "Meleeing RDM".
who only want to toy around with it for fun, and outright state they only want to do it on an LS party aren't really the reason why the discussion on RDM's capablility compared to other jobs has occured.
It's those who keep feeding the argument by continually listing the same inane points over and over again.

But this:

So if someone posted a parse where RDM came decently close (ie. over 70%) to a top-tier DD, would you take it at face value? Or would you find some excuse to try to invalidate the result, like others have done before?

At this point we are back to theorycrafting.

[Septimus]

So analysing a test which measures RDM DD output under one configuration is nothing of value? So pointing out what a BST has that a RDM doesn't when someone compares the two is nothing of value?

Interesting idea of value you have: pro-RDM-melee posts such as "RDM will parse appreciably close to unmeritted BST" is value but "no it won't, you're still missing <x, y, z> and unmeritted BST is horrible anyway" as a response has none.

You see nothing of value because you don't like what I'm saying , but the truth is I've added more of value to this thread than you have with your threats. In your opinion, acting "BRP like" is functionally the same as disagreeing with you I guess...who is the one making valueless, derailing posts again?

You did an amazing job analyzing a test run by someone that is regarded as a moron. Hey, I saw a DRK who was dual wielding Martial Axes, so the only obvious conclusion is that all Dark Knights are terrible players. Wee! Broad generalizations are fun!

Anyway, where in this thread that I said that RDM melee is anything other than suboptimal? This whole thread is not about "OMG RDM melee is so awesomez!", it's about trying out something for shits and giggles. When people do things for shits and giggles, they do it to have fun- like when a bunch of WHMs get together with their clubs and smash skeletons in KRT. They know that they are going to get less Merit Points than they would in a good thickets party, they just do it for a fun change of pace. You remember fun, don't you?

[aurik]

You did an amazing job analyzing a test ....

If this is your opinion, why are you characterizing me as adding nothing?

[Carnusty]

You did an amazing job analyzing a test ....

If this is your opinion, why are you characterizing me as adding nothing?

THink you missed the part about

You did an amazing job analyzing a test run by someone that is regarded as a moron.

[Septimus]

You did an amazing job analyzing a test ....

If this is your opinion, why are you characterizing me as adding nothing?

THink you missed the part about

You did an amazing job analyzing a test run by someone that is regarded as a moron.

The devil is in the details.

[ringthree]

All of this head-smacking-against-the-wall-fun makes me wanna make a topic about PLDs main healing in merit parties. Cause they do that about as well as RDMs melee DD.

LOL I have actually done this. 4 DD's, BRD, PLD as main healer... it worked.

[Carnusty]

All of this head-smacking-against-the-wall-fun makes me wanna make a topic about PLDs main healing in merit parties. Cause they do that about as well as RDMs melee DD.

LOL I have actually done this. 4 DD's, BRD, PLD as main healer... it worked.

<- was in a party with a PLD main healer on the Erucas in Mount Zhayolm, NIN PLD DDx3 RDM pt, RDM DC'd and the PLD was like "ok i sub whm and main heal"

got like 8k/hr o_O! Cure IV is really fun when your main healer doesn't have to worry about taking hate >_>.........