Melee as RDM

[Loren]

Ya, let's please stop using a Wrish-designed setup as any sort of meaningful test.
I understand the frustration regarding lack of parsed data--It's mostly because a lot of the gear is elusive. In the interest of getting away from Kraken Club and Vorpal Blade discussion, I will list my idea of an "optimal" setup and if anyone reading is capable of imitating it before I finish collecting all the gear and wants to share the results, it should shed some light.

Bold italic items I own. Plain italic items I could buy without much trouble. Others may take some time.

RDM/NIN
Lv8 Dagger merit, Lv8 Sword merit*
Blau Dolch / Joyeuse / Tiphia Sting
*I'm stuck with 8 Dagger/8 Marksmanship/4 Sword due to other jobs

TP:
Walahra Turban / Peacock Charm / Hollow Earring / Suppanomimi
Goliard Saio / Dusk Gloves / Rajas Ring / Fencer's Ring*
Amemet Mantle +1 / Swift Belt / Nashira Seraweels / Dusk Ledelsens
(Total Acc+24, Atk+36, Haste+20%)
*Convert before fighting to activate latent

Evisceration:
Ogre Mask +1 / Peacock Charm / Hollow Earring / Brutal Earring
Assault Jerkin / Tarasque Mitts +1 / Rajas Ring / Thunder Ring
Amemet Mantle +1 / Warwolf Belt / Dusk Trousers / Ogre Ledelsens +1
(Total Acc+29, Atk+104, STR+12, DEX+17)

En-element:
Glamor Jupon / Warlock's Tights / Duelist's Gloves / Enhancing Torque / Merciful Cape
(Enhancing skill +45 -- total 301 skill (no merit) -- base En-element damage of 28 - 30 on day procs)

This will put TP accuracy in the neighborhood of ~375. Not capped for most mobs, but on par with others. Attack will be low--in the 350 neighborhood, but I've been outparsed by 350 Atk melees when I was at 440 if their Haste gear is top notch, which is the approach chosen here since En-element damage is driven purely by frequency. Any merit situation will include a Minuet anyway, which narrows the percentage distinction.

At the very least, the RDM should enjoy at least a 1.0 pDIF on most hits and--together with minimal resists with 300 Enhancing--that means 60~65 damage per connect up to 70~75 on winged mobs, delivered at a very rapid pace. WS damage will be modest-- about 450-600 on a 5/5 connect in the above example, but also delivered at a rapid pace stemming from Joy TP. Winged targets and Rogue's Roll will affect Evis damage significantly.

So that's my "theorycraft" contribution to rinse out the taste of Wrish from this thread. If anyone on Garuda wants to take me to Sacrarium for the 8th time, plz send /tell. >_>;

[aurik]

You did an amazing job analyzing a test ....

If this is your opinion, why are you characterizing me as adding nothing?

THink you missed the part about

You did an amazing job analyzing a test run by someone that is regarded as a moron.

I only quoted the relevant portion which shows Septimus acknowledging my posts as on-topic and contributing. He manages to simultaenously bash me as "violating the BRP rule" (posting non-contributing derail posts). Hypocrisy at its finest; his posts are the ones that contribute nothing and merely serve to derail the discussion.

[aurik]

Ya, let's please stop using a Wrish-designed setup as any sort of meaningful test.
I understand the frustration regarding lack of parsed data--It's mostly because a lot of the gear is elusive. In the interest of getting away from Kraken Club and Vorpal Blade discussion, I will list my idea of an "optimal" setup and if anyone reading is capable of imitating it before I finish collecting all the gear and wants to share the results, it should shed some light.

Bold italic items I own. Plain italic items I could buy without much trouble. Others may take some time.

RDM/NIN
Lv8 Dagger merit, Lv8 Sword merit*
Blau Dolch / Joyeuse / Tiphia Sting
*I'm stuck with 8 Dagger/8 Marksmanship/4 Sword due to other jobs

TP:
Walahra Turban / Peacock Charm / Hollow Earring / Suppanomimi
Goliard Saio / Dusk Gloves / Rajas Ring / Fencer's Ring*
Amemet Mantle +1 / Swift Belt / Nashira Seraweels / Dusk Ledelsens
(Total Acc+24, Atk+36, Haste+20%)

Acc +24 with a B rated weapon is going to be pretty painful in contemporary merit camps.

[Carnusty]

Actually I believe Sept was being sarcastic on your analysis, because looking/analyzing at someone's tests done by someone who's a retard, will be useless and just as pointless as the original 'test'.

also~

Contemporary merit camps are filled with T/VT mobs. Aside from Mamool ja, you're not going to see many IT anymore. Greater colibri come packaged with a bard, and since you're not on-par with most melees, you get to use sushi :D

Personally when I DD Gear my bard for fun, with Sushi usually I have enough accuracy to get by when farming with friends. And a Bard's skill with a dagger is even worse :O

[Tajin]

Just to point out, Wrish did none of the testing. Tyche and a RDM friend of his did the test using the setup that Wrish proposed. And owned wrish in the process.

[aurik]

Sushi with low-300ish attack is going to lead to pretty craptacular damage, even with a minuet. Acc will still be quite mediocre, seeing as axe/ridill wars popping sushi get 90% accuracy even with incredible access to accuracy gear and aggressor helping them out.

[LD]

eh......You all seem to be ignoring the fact that not only did wrish skew the circumstances so far in RDM's favor, he STILL came short (meaning even in a fairytale situation, you're not coming close), and not one of you has actually come up with anything yourselves.

Since you obviously can't match any serious melee, what's the point of seeing how far you can go? It reeks of vanity, trying to say "Hey, look! I can almost do this too!" Well, you can't. Just because you can chip away at a mob without taking much damage or using much MP doesn't mean you can suddenly break your established barriers.

IMO, this topic is inherently asinine, so wrish (indirectly) providing the only form of an actual test, even an insanely flawed one, is not so surprising. I mean, you're arguing about RDM's admittedly meager DD prowess with a MNK, ffs.

Really...

[Carnusty]

Sushi with low-300ish attack is going to lead to pretty craptacular damage, even with a minuet. Acc will still be quite mediocre, seeing as axe/ridill wars popping sushi get 90% accuracy even with incredible access to accuracy gear and aggressor helping them out.

My Bard melee can pump 350~attack with gear, and that's when sitting at 240 dagger skill.

How's a RDM with 250 base and 8 dagger merits in the "low-300ish" range? That's 26 attack more than I can get right there, putting them at near the same attack rating as many haste-built Ninjas.

Ninjas win in WS and speed though.

[Yutuyu]

Ya, let's please stop using a Wrish-designed setup as any sort of meaningful test.
I understand the frustration regarding lack of parsed data--It's mostly because a lot of the gear is elusive. In the interest of getting away from Kraken Club and Vorpal Blade discussion, I will list my idea of an "optimal" setup and if anyone reading is capable of imitating it before I finish collecting all the gear and wants to share the results, it should shed some light.

Bold italic items I own. Plain italic items I could buy without much trouble. Others may take some time.

RDM/NIN
Lv8 Dagger merit, Lv8 Sword merit*
Blau Dolch / Joyeuse / Tiphia Sting
*I'm stuck with 8 Dagger/8 Marksmanship/4 Sword due to other jobs

TP:
Walahra Turban / Peacock Charm / Hollow Earring / Suppanomimi
Goliard Saio / Dusk Gloves / Rajas Ring / Fencer's Ring*
Amemet Mantle +1 / Swift Belt / Nashira Seraweels / Dusk Ledelsens
(Total Acc+24, Atk+36, Haste+20%)
*Convert before fighting to activate latent

Evisceration:
Ogre Mask +1 / Peacock Charm / Hollow Earring / Brutal Earring
Assault Jerkin / Tarasque Mitts +1 / Rajas Ring / Thunder Ring
Amemet Mantle +1 / Warwolf Belt / Dusk Trousers / Ogre Ledelsens +1
(Total Acc+29, Atk+104, STR+12, DEX+17)

En-element:
Glamor Jupon / Warlock's Tights / Duelist's Gloves / Enhancing Torque / Merciful Cape
(Enhancing skill +45 -- total 301 skill (no merit) -- base En-element damage of 28 - 30 on day procs)

This will put TP accuracy in the neighborhood of ~375. Not capped for most mobs, but on par with others. Attack will be low--in the 350 neighborhood, but I've been outparsed by 350 Atk melees when I was at 440 if their Haste gear is top notch, which is the approach chosen here since En-element damage is driven purely by frequency. Any merit situation will include a Minuet anyway, which narrows the percentage distinction.

At the very least, the RDM should enjoy at least a 1.0 pDIF on most hits and--together with minimal resists with 300 Enhancing--that means 60~65 damage per connect up to 70~75 on winged mobs, delivered at a very rapid pace. WS damage will be modest-- about 450-600 on a 5/5 connect in the above example, but also delivered at a rapid pace stemming from Joy TP. Winged targets and Rogue's Roll will affect Evis damage significantly.

So that's my "theorycraft" contribution to rinse out the taste of Wrish from this thread. If anyone on Garuda wants to take me to Sacrarium for the 8th time, plz send /tell. >_>;

Don't you think a meaningful test should only include the use of gear that an rdm who doesn't suck at everything else their job entails can use? I can't imagine any RDM-Mains taking hollow earring and the rest of those incredibly poor gear choices. And if you're not an rdm-main, but a melee (thus having access to those items),then why melee on the rdm?

Also with sub-par base STR and very little STR+ in your setup, you're going to find your quick attack speed working against you: You'll have negative fSTR compounded against you hugely every swing.

[Carnusty]

I'm pretty sure the "Why melee on RDM" question has been answered a thousand times on this thread, basically "Because it's fun and different." No one's saying it's better, no one's saying RDM melee will replace any frontliner. They just want to see what'd work and what'd happen.

I've seen the above statement I just wrote, written nearly a hundred times over on this thread. I'm not sure how you guys are missing this.

[Yutuyu]

I'm pretty sure the "Why melee on RDM" question has been answered a thousand times on this thread, basically "Because it's fun and different." No one's saying it's better, no one's saying RDM melee will replace any frontliner. They just want to see what'd work and what'd happen.

I've seen the above statement I just wrote, written nearly a hundred times over on this thread. I'm not sure how you guys are missing this.

In particular the question I was asking was "why melee on rdm if you have a melee job leveled?" The point of my post was suggesting the removal of gear that any decent RDM will not have, I.E. ex/rare choice gear (such as Rajas Ring).

[Carnusty]

I'm pretty sure the "Why melee on RDM" question has been answered a thousand times on this thread, basically "Because it's fun and different." No one's saying it's better, no one's saying RDM melee will replace any frontliner. They just want to see what'd work and what'd happen.

I've seen the above statement I just wrote, written nearly a hundred times over on this thread. I'm not sure how you guys are missing this.

In particular the question I was asking was "why melee on rdm if you have a melee job leveled?" The point of my post was suggesting the removal of gear that any decent RDM will not have, I.E. ex/rare choice gear (such as Rajas Ring).

So you're saying most decent red mages would have chosen Tamas over Rajas, despite the limited used of a Tamas ring?

My g/f is a Mainjob white mage, she chose Rajas. The only thing Tamas adds to red mage that they can't get from equip swaps is enm-3 or whatever was on that ring.

Also I doubt any AN earrings would be more useful to red mage. Unless they like Conserve MP or magic bursting alot.

[Yutuyu]

I'm pretty sure the "Why melee on RDM" question has been answered a thousand times on this thread, basically "Because it's fun and different." No one's saying it's better, no one's saying RDM melee will replace any frontliner. They just want to see what'd work and what'd happen.

I've seen the above statement I just wrote, written nearly a hundred times over on this thread. I'm not sure how you guys are missing this.

In particular the question I was asking was "why melee on rdm if you have a melee job leveled?" The point of my post was suggesting the removal of gear that any decent RDM will not have, I.E. ex/rare choice gear (such as Rajas Ring).

So you're saying most decent red mages would have chosen Tamas over Rajas, despite the limited used of a Tamas ring?

My g/f is a Mainjob white mage, she chose Rajas. The only thing Tamas adds to red mage that they can't get from equip swaps is enm-3 or whatever was on that ring.

Also I doubt any AN earrings would be more useful to red mage. Unless they like Conserve MP or magic bursting alot.

If you RDM/NIN tank you might go for a Sattva. But saying Tamas isn't a big deal is just silly. Conserve MP makes an enormous difference, and Ethereal is even more useful for tanking/soloing and times you're going to get hit by AOEs. And if I was an rdm main with no interest in meleeing I'd take Abyssal over Supa for the Dark Magic Skill.

[aurik]

Sushi with low-300ish attack is going to lead to pretty craptacular damage, even with a minuet. Acc will still be quite mediocre, seeing as axe/ridill wars popping sushi get 90% accuracy even with incredible access to accuracy gear and aggressor helping them out.

My Bard melee can pump 350~attack with gear, and that's when sitting at 240 dagger skill.

How's a RDM with 250 base and 8 dagger merits in the "low-300ish" range? That's 26 attack more than I can get right there, putting them at near the same attack rating as many haste-built Ninjas.

Ninjas win in WS and speed though.

250 skill + 8 merits + 8 natural attack =
From the setup given:
Blau: 16 attack
Tiphia: 2 attack
Dusk Gloves: 5 attack
Amemet+1: 15 attack
Swift belt: -5 attack
Dusk ledelsens: 4 attack
Strength: ~35 attack

Total attack bonus: 72 + 274 = 346 total attack I guess that's mid 300s instead of low 300s.

It's still a desperately low amount compared to haste-built nin/wars who:
-use a 269 skill-base weapon instead of 250
-get +10 from subbing war
-use bomb core

Thats like a 40 point attack advantage.

[Sagacious Sundi]

I think people are confusing the morons who would melee as a RDM or do something less efficient (such as WHM/THF) in a pickup party and are all "omfg its my 12 bucks ever heard of fun stupid elitist *ignorant to the fact that it's other people's money*" (who are total morons) for people who just want to have fun and max out their efficiency when having fun, without having to waste unwilling people's time.

[Carnusty]

250 skill + 8 merits + 8 natural attack =
From the setup given:
Blau: 16 attack
Tiphia: 2 attack
Dusk Gloves: 5 attack
Amemet+1: 15 attack
Swift belt: -5 attack
Dusk ledelsens: 4 attack
Strength: ~35 attack

Total attack bonus: 72 + 274 = 346 total attack I guess that's mid 300s instead of low 300s.

It's still a desperately low amount compared to haste-built nin/wars who:
-use a 269 skill-base weapon instead of 250
-get +10 from subbing war
-use bomb core

Thats like a 40 point attack advantage.

I'll give you the RDM's attack one, I don't have goliard/swift and would use AJ/Bardrelic body and Potent belt.

With my ideal haste setup on Ninja though, I'd sit at 365 attack with full katana merits. So with the attack you listed on the red mage, that's only a 20 point bonus

ZING

[aurik]

250 skill + 8 merits + 8 natural attack =
From the setup given:
Blau: 16 attack
Tiphia: 2 attack
Dusk Gloves: 5 attack
Amemet+1: 15 attack
Swift belt: -5 attack
Dusk ledelsens: 4 attack
Strength: ~35 attack

Total attack bonus: 72 + 274 = 346 total attack I guess that's mid 300s instead of low 300s.

It's still a desperately low amount compared to haste-built nin/wars who:
-use a 269 skill-base weapon instead of 250
-get +10 from subbing war
-use bomb core

Thats like a 40 point attack advantage.

I'll give you the RDM's attack one, I don't have goliard/swift and would use AJ/Bardrelic body and Potent belt.

With my ideal haste setup on Ninja though, I'd sit at 365 attack with full katana merits. So with the attack you listed on the red mage, that's only a 20 point bonus

ZING

What kind of speed build are you talking about?

269 skill + 8 merits + 8 natural attack = 293

Perdu: 10
Unji: 1
Bomb core: 12
Hope torque: 7
Turban: 0
AF+1 body: 0
Amemet +1: 15
Dusk hands: 5
Swift: -5
Suppa/Brutal: 0
Strength: ~35 attack
/war: 10
Total: 90 bonus

Total of 383 attack.

[Carnusty]

<- wasn't counting Perdu/hope torque, and used Fire Bomblet instead of Core to make up for the lack of ACC in setup

Forgot about Perdu XD~and hope torque is pretty out of my range in items I can obtain, so yah~

[evilpaul]

Swap the Sea Torque for an AH neck piece: -6 (-5 possibly with Chiv Chain I guess?)
U/U instead of Perdu: -10
Bomblet instead of Bomb Core (with full Katana merits I rarely find myself with capped Acc): -6

Would be a pretty reasonable speed build with ~360 Attack. Not the best obviously though.

If I get around to doing some Assaults, and Balor stops being an assface, it's what I'm aiming for though.

[Carnusty]

Back on Topic XD


If you're horribly bored in a RDM merit (Colibri parties tend to bore me on mage jobs), or meriting with friends, then the setup that Loren gave looked the best to me :Q

If your party needs a DD though, change jobs or wait longer for an invite XD