Melee as RDM

[Loren]

Ya, a lot of talking past each other going on.

The Wrish vs. Tyche experiment was indicative of nothing since Wrish's idea for melee RDM--which guided Tyche's RDM partner--focused on an overkill of accuracy to make offhand club work, plus no Suppa and no real Haste gear. It was doomed from the start. Plus, picking a parser fight with a MNK is a silly exercise for any job.

Don't you think a meaningful test should only include the use of gear that an rdm who doesn't suck at everything else their job entails can use? I can't imagine any RDM-Mains taking hollow earring and the rest of those incredibly poor gear choices.

The answer to that question has no bearing on the performance of the items listed, so no. If you're referring to Tamas Ring and Magnetic Earring, those are nice convenience items but don't increase a RDM's backline power in any way that Loq/Relaxing/Aqua/Snow don't (CMP+5 reduces MP consumption over time by about 1%).

In my particular case, I selected Rajas and Hollow for THF. "Why don't I just get my melee fix on that job?" Well, I do. RDM melee is a very different style and it's fun. This is a niche topic. Introducing evidence and analysis is welcome, but taking a discussion-nullifying posture just makes you a wet blanket. Move on to the next thread if this one doesn't intrigue you.

You'll have negative fSTR compounded against you hugely every swing

It's 3 points less than MNK/SAM/NIN, and I don't see them advocating a ton of +STR for TP. En-element creates a different style of damage, hit frequency is everything.

Thats like a 40 point attack advantage

Indeed, the 19 skill gap is a significant challenge. But I think people are making too much of the "RDM has no native DD traits" point when they have En-element. How much Attack does a NIN need to raise per-hit damage by 28-30? I'm guessing quite a bit. People use this to rag on other jobs too: "THF can't DD because they have to choose between Dual Wield and Berserk." That's true, but other jobs don't get Triple Attack, SA, TA, etc. Selective omission of the facts won't give you an accurate picture.

Sheer quantity of hits is a scary thing. Provided Haste spell + 1 March, all frontliners will make about 1.35x the standard number of swings. A melee who equips 20% Haste gear will ratchet that up to about 1.85x which makes the gear alone worth about +37% swings. RDM is by no means unique in that aspect since other jobs can equip 20% Haste, but using weapons that deal 60-70 damage per hit (half physical, half magic) with an effective 142/119 Delay after Suppa is something that I would think overcomes a good chunk (not all) of the 19 point gap in combat skill. At least enough to earn more consideration than a dismissive spitwad.

[aurik]

I'm confused why you dismiss offhand club so liberally and then promote hit frequency and enspell so much. After all, by using hollow and fencer ring, you're giving up 2 extremely potent slots where you could be wearing brutal / sniper|toreador instead.

[Whatinthe]

I'm confused why you dismiss offhand club so liberally and then promote hit frequency and enspell so much. After all, by using hollow and fencer ring, you're giving up 2 extremely potent slots where you could be wearing brutal / sniper|toreador instead.

Because even with maxed club skill and eating Sushi, there was 25 acc difference between unmeritted dagger and fully meritted club. And contrary to popular belief, en- does not constitute the majority of a RDM's damage when meleeing. The parses I've seen put it around 10% give or take a few % of total damage.

[aurik]

I'm confused why you dismiss offhand club so liberally and then promote hit frequency and enspell so much. After all, by using hollow and fencer ring, you're giving up 2 extremely potent slots where you could be wearing brutal / sniper|toreador instead.

Because even with maxed club skill and eating Sushi, there was 25 acc difference between unmeritted dagger and fully meritted club. And contrary to popular belief, en- does not constitute the majority of a RDM's damage when meleeing. The parses I've seen put it around 10% give or take a few % of total damage.

25 acc will only lead to a ~12.5% hit rate difference. Surely swinging 4 times as frequently, with slightly less accuracy, for en20~ would be better than swinging once (especially at a relatively poor cRatio) both in terms of damage dealt during TP phase and WS frequency?

[Whatinthe]

25 acc will only lead to a ~12.5% hit rate difference. Surely swinging 4 times as frequently, with slightly less accuracy, for en20~ would be better than swinging once (especially at a relatively poor cRatio) both in terms of damage dealt during TP phase and WS frequency?

Wow, now who's the one who can't add up? Blau/Joy swings average of 2.5/round, so now you're telling me that using Blau/KC will hit 10/round guaranteed? And to think you dismissed the idea RDM/RNG single-wielding KC so easily a few pages back...

[Carnusty]

25 acc will only lead to a ~12.5% hit rate difference. Surely swinging 4 times as frequently, with slightly less accuracy, for en20~ would be better than swinging once (especially at a relatively poor cRatio) both in terms of damage dealt during TP phase and WS frequency?

Wow, now who's the one who can't add up? Blau/Joy swings average of 2.5/round, so now you're telling me that using Blau/KC will hit 10/round guaranteed? And to think you dismissed the idea RDM/RNG single-wielding KC so easily a few pages back...

Pretty sure he meant just the offhand

[Tajin]

Wow, now who's the one who can't add up? Blau/Joy swings average of 2.5/round, so now you're telling me that using Blau/KC will hit 10/round guaranteed? And to think you dismissed the idea RDM/RNG single-wielding KC so easily a few pages back...

There is a limit of 8 hits for each attack round. I missed the RDM/RNG idea, but that setup needs even more money/gear for it to work (not saying it works though).

[Whatinthe]

There is a limit of 8 hits for each attack round. I missed the RDM/RNG idea, but that setup needs even more money/gear for it to work (not saying it works though).

I'm quite aware of the limit of 8 hits/round. Why do you think I said Tyche's test was fail to begin with? Pairing a high-acc main with a low-acc multi-hit offhand basically leaves you in a situation where you have to gravity a T mob in order to get a decent hit rate even when using Sushi.

The KC /RNG would not require much more outlay of cash than what Tyche gimped the RDM with (aka the 200m RDM). /RNG would provide it with some much-needed acc+ for KC, Perdu Bow provides a decent boost in r.acc at WS, and the only thing you would want to buy is some r.acc in certain slots.

[Tajin]

Aren't we (well you guys actually posting content) way past the Tyche test at this point?

Also, im no RNG but i believe you need R.acc + R.atk (or STR? ) for the Sidewinder spam damage. So you need R.atk gear too.

[aurik]

25 acc will only lead to a ~12.5% hit rate difference. Surely swinging 4 times as frequently, with slightly less accuracy, for en20~ would be better than swinging once (especially at a relatively poor cRatio) both in terms of damage dealt during TP phase and WS frequency?

Wow, now who's the one who can't add up? Blau/Joy swings average of 2.5/round, so now you're telling me that using Blau/KC will hit 10/round guaranteed? And to think you dismissed the idea RDM/RNG single-wielding KC so easily a few pages back...

I dismissed the idea of using sidewinder, not the idea of RDM/RNG. KC theoretically swings ~4.5 times per swing of a non-multi-attacking weapon. But good job at beating up those straw men.

[Whatinthe]

I dismissed the idea of using sidewinder, not the idea of RDM/RNG. KC theoretically swings ~4.5 times per swing of a non-multi-attacking weapon. But good job at beating up those straw men.

Well, if SAM/RNG can make good use of it, I don't see why a KC RDM/RNG couldn't. Granted, I'm sure SAM has access to much more r.acc and r.atk stuff, but on the flip side I'm sure the KC RDM would be getting TP that much faster.

As for beating straw people:

I'm confused why you dismiss offhand club so liberally and then promote hit frequency and enspell so much.

Because even with maxed club skill and eating Sushi, there was 25 acc difference between unmeritted dagger and fully meritted club.

Surely swinging 4 times as frequently, with slightly less accuracy, for en20~ would be better than swinging once (especially at a relatively poor cRatio) both in terms of damage dealt during TP phase and WS frequency?

If there's an off-hand KC, that means /nin. The best weapon combo for RDM/NIN is Blau/Joy. Sorry, but you lit the bonfire yourself on this one, Aurik.

[aurik]

I dismissed the idea of using sidewinder, not the idea of RDM/RNG. KC theoretically swings ~4.5 times per swing of a non-multi-attacking weapon. But good job at beating up those straw men.

Well, if SAM/RNG can make good use of it, I don't see why a KC RDM/RNG couldn't. Granted, I'm sure SAM has access to much more r.acc and r.atk stuff, but on the flip side I'm sure the KC RDM would be getting TP that much faster.

I bolded the important part. Also,

Samurai: Archery C+ 230
Red Mage: Archery D 210

Also Samurai gets access to bows that aren't complete shit.

As for beating straw people

As you can see in the very quote you gave, you were comparing dagger to KC. And I said, KC hits 4.5 times per round, dagger hits once per round. Then, you rebut me saying "Blau/Kraken should hit 10 times to Blau/Joy's 2.5". Whoops, except I never said that.

Current score:
Whatinthe 1
Straw Man 0

[Whatinthe]

KC theoretically swings ~4.5 times per swing of a non-multi-attacking weapon. But good job at beating up those straw men.

Just to show he hasn't done his math at all:

Expected hit rate using Blau/KC with 90%/77.5% hit rate respectively (because some ass decided that he'd fully merit club without meritting dagger) hits: 4.29 hits/round

Expected hit rate using Blau/Joy with 90%/92% hit rate without meritting either dagger or sword (but using Suppa): 2.28 hits/round

Oh and we're comparing an off-hand 264 delay vs. 224 here. Now please apologize to the nice straw people for torching them.

[aurik]

trash

Except I never compared blau/KC to blau/joy? I compared swinging a dagger to swinging a kraken.

[Carnusty]

Also Samurai gets access to bows that aren't complete shit.

Waitwait, you linked "Complete shit" instead of "Aren't complete shit"!!!

Shouldn't you...wait

Oh.

I see what you did there.

[Whatinthe]

Except I never compared blau/KC to blau/joy? I compared swinging a dagger to swinging a kraken.

The only reason RDM would use a dagger is for Evisceration. Show me one single post where anyone has recommended the use of a /dagger in this thread. If you truly thought that I was comparing xxx/Dagger with xxx/KC, you're smoking some weird shit. I was comparing mainhand unmeritted dagger to offhand fully-meritted KC in case you still think otherwise, and even that was at least a 12.5% difference in accuracy.

[aurik]

Except I never compared blau/KC to blau/joy? I compared swinging a dagger to swinging a kraken.

The only reason RDM would use a dagger is for Evisceration. Show me one single post where anyone has recommended the use of a /dagger in this thread. If you truly thought that I was comparing xxx/Dagger with xxx/KC, you're smoking some weird shit. I was comparing mainhand unmeritted dagger to offhand fully-meritted KC in case you still think otherwise, and even that was at least a 12.5% difference in accuracy.

You were the one who made the initial dagger to KC comparison. You even quoted it once. I just pointed out that KC swings 4 times more often, which led you off on some random tangent about Blau/KC swinging 10 times a round.

Whatinthe 2
Straw man 0

[Whatinthe]

I just pointed out that KC swings 4 times more often, which led you off on some random tangent about Blau/KC swinging 10 times a round.

Except that's not what you said.

Surely swinging 4 times as frequently, with slightly less accuracy, for en20~ would be better than swinging once (especially at a relatively poor cRatio) both in terms of damage dealt during TP phase and WS frequency?

Nope, I don't see any references to "swinging KC 4 times" or "swinging 4 times on the offhand". Just you saying [use of a KC leads to] swinging 4 times as frequently. It's like marketing material that claims "it's 4 times faster as our competitor's product*".

In case you want to whine that I'm twisting your words:

frequently

adverb

In an expected or customary manner; for the most part: commonly, consistently, customarily, generally, habitually, naturally, normally, often, regularly, routinely, typically, usually. Idioms: as usual, per usual. See big/small/amount, usual/unusual.

Surely swinging 4 times as usual is better than swinging once.

What you implied was that use of the KC would result in 4 times the attack of not using KC, not that KC would attack 4 times the rate of a non-multi-attack weapon (to which we both agreee).

* Some restrictions may apply. Not valid in all jurisdictions. Test conducted by a biased party. This disclaimer will self-destruct in 5 seconds.

[Judai]

Is Whatinthe, Wrishe? Cause he's an idiot as well. Aurik simply asked why KC is a bad idea when other RDMs said enspell dmg is so pwn. People were trying to say enspell dmg is beast and a reason RDMs might be able to hold their own. KC would be a huge boost in enspell dmg because it swings more often. Then you went on some complete tangent and tried to use something out of context, nice job being a moron. This is the reason Aurik is so condecending here Septimus, a few of the RDMs are just plain idiots and keep backpeddling and making shit up.

[aurik]

Earth to Wrishinthe:

What's the deal with KC hate?

Dagger is more accurate than club

Surely swinging 4 times with less accuracy is better than swinging once

Surely I couldn't be comparing swinging a KC to swinging a dagger?