Do people still argue about enmity?

[Secksi]

I've tanked many Tiamat and Cerb where the whms never pulled hate, as I'm sure many here have as well. Cumulative pretty much has to cap under the actual hate cap(or there is one hate cap and this is all crap). Hate cap is obviously there from tanks trading hate with as little as an uts shadow being lost.

Only real problem I have with this is Souleater being cumulative, unless they mean with melee. They did mention barrage as volatile after all, and that's not from the use of the ability itself, but from the damage that comes with it. I assume anyway, I'm not a rng. Without melee souleater seems to give a high hate spike for a short amount of time and that's it.

Where does stun fall? Volatile?

Some of my own observations make me not believe in this. I guess we should all believe in whatever works for us though. I personally belive in the heart of the cards.

[Kaylia]

I've always said provoke hate decays faster than some other things... nice to have it confirmed. :D Thanks for the information~

I didnt see such confirmation anywhere. >_>


I'm not totally convinced by the guide. It might be correct, but I tend to think enmity follow a logarithm curves. The more hate you have, the harder it become for you to gain additional, and the faster it will decay. Provoke will give you a big "spike", but it wont decay faster than the whm.

Counter example #1: War+whm
Whm pull hate with cure, and war voke it off him.
If volatile hate concept was correct, the war would lose hate quite fast, even if he wasnt doing anything. However, something like that never happen (well, very rarely, and it's usually caused by getting hit with shadow on)


Example of what I think:
Every attack add a certain amount of enmity (like they said). 1 enmity = 1dmg = 1hp healed or something like that. Provoke is level based iirc and probably add a fixed amount (lets say 500 at 75 for this example).
For 0-500enmity. Everyone lose 1% per tick +/- their base enmity
For 500-1000enmity. Everyone lose 5% per tick
For 1000-1200. Everyone lose 10% per tick
For 1200+. Everyone lose 20%

Basically, the higher you are, the more enmity you lose. If you already have high enmity, the additional enmity you get off provoke will dissipate quite fast, which mean the mage around you who are probably close will pull hate on their first action.

If there is no enm +/- involved, whoever has highest number should always be first

Every number above are just example, but I think the process is similar. Could be a curve based directly on your number, but it wouldnt change much.

[Lyramion]

I think there is some sort of "soft cap" for cumulative enmity. After you reach that only the Volatile stuff gets you short spikes of hate.

[Zalius]

ffxi needs threat meters

[Almalexia]

ffxi needs sanity meters

http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/i...sh/image07.jpg

[Vail]

What is enmity cap? I got -34 enmity on WHM, should I go for Errant cape (spend alot of Gil, and lose +30 HP) to get -39? I heard that after -/+35 there is not longer a markable difference... is that true? Thanks.

it's more like around 25-30 range, you're already over-killing the -enmity. Imho.

[Heian]

RDM/NIN

Best Hate In The Game.

[Apelila]

My first thought when reading this was 'well they got that f'ing wrong' since any WHM knows that if Cure's where cumulative and weighed as much as Paladin JA's we'd never get to 30, let alone 75."

Then I realized what the guide is implying. The 2 different types of enmity must be weighed differently. It's possible that with all the -enmity stuff mages have they never come close to the enmity floor the tanks have established.If the enmity cap is truly there, and Cumulative and Volatile Enmity are judged separately, It explains why stuff can stop following you if you just provoke it, but if you cure a Tank in a BC or zone the monster comes straight for you if the tank dies. It also explains why RDM's sometimes get smacked after their raised on long fights.

I wish the guide had said if there where caps and if one was judged before the other.

[terraflarex]

RDM/NIN

Best Hate In The Game.

Your sig is hilarious, btw.

[Kaylia]

ffxi needs sanity meters

http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/i...sh/image07.jpg

Everyone capped it long time ago, would be meaningless



If there is any pld on ifrit with a lot of free time, I would like to test hate formula later today. It would be easy to figure if there is such thing as volatile enmity. I would also like to test "+/- enmity" influence on hate decay and JA. Last thing I would like to test is the hate decay itself. Burst II vs voke 3 sec apart,30sec apart, 5min apart.

[octopus]

Name of the guide? Or better yet, a picture of the front cover? This guide sounds pretty good so I'd like to possibly order one from amazon japan...

[Rialia]

What is enmity cap? I got -34 enmity on WHM, should I go for Errant cape (spend alot of Gil, and lose +30 HP) to get -39? I heard that after -/+35 there is not longer a markable difference... is that true? Thanks.

I'm assuming you're switching in from Intensifying Cape?

Many people say that -Enmity sees diminishing returns, and their numbers vary between 10-35 give or take. This is because often times, they will not see it's usefulness since hate is generally shared between many, many other healers participating in battle.

I've never found that to be the case, especially in long duration battles with fewer White Mages (less than 2 or 3).

As a White Mage, I've found a significant difference in stacked -Enmity. I highly suggest getting an Errant Cape for the sake of increasing your total -Enmity.

In all honesty, your choices are limited in that slot. Intensifying Cape loses it's usefulness in terms of MP after the first Cure III. The same applies to something like Blue Cape +1.

If you're truly worried about HP, Gigant Mantle is a much cheaper alternative to Errant Cape to swap in. Otherwise, Errant Cape, is useful throughout the entire fight.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

Are you completely sure?

[S N K]

RDM/NIN

Best Hate In The Game.

Your sig is hilarious, btw.

He so stole that Christopher Reeve comment from me >O

[Alleya]

Wow, that's really cool. I hadn't really known about cumulative enmity either, I assumed it decayed too, but it'd explain a few things.. But then again, it sort of wouldn't. It's hard to imagine holding hate through an entire Tiamat as something like NIN/DRK if your healers are never taking any damage, and their hate is just building and building. @.@ Will test if I can, though it looks right as you've shown it..

It's definitely apparent from the other side. It's the main use of having ridiculous amounts of -enmity, even though a lot of people swear it does nothing. There have been times on tiamat where a tank has gone down and I've ended up tanking in their place immediately. It's why I insist on standing with the tanks (take damage) and why I cure as little as possible. The concept of fixed enmity comes very logically to you when you get your face beat in a few times. XD

[levish]

if you are still getting hate with -34 enimity you either need better tanks (or some TA lovin) or another healer to spread the curing around a bit.

just imho

[Jpeg]

Would be nice if they mentioned CHR and its role in decaying enmity and/or cumulative enmity.

[Soraan]

Would be nice if they mentioned CHR and its role in decaying enmity and/or cumulative enmity.

[Jones]

This kinda makes me wonder what type of enmity effect the PUP Attachment Optical Fiber gives. Any PUP can tell you that it increases enmity by a significant amount, but how? Raises hate cap? Multiplies Volatile Hate per action? Lowers decay rate of Volatile? Combination of these?

[Therin]

Interesting theory that you found, Elmer - but it's just that.

In all of my time tanking (and playing DRK) I've noticed some undeniable truths about enmity.

1) There is a cap.

Example - After a long Khimaira fight of taking very little damage, constantly Flashing, attacking, using job abilities, and Curing themselves and others, two good PLD/NINs reach a level of hate where pretty much any action transfers hate from one to the other. Now, first of all, we all know that different abilities gain a specific amount of hate based on factors like how much damage is dealt, how much HP is cured (with the exception of Cure V), and how much enmity one is wearing. It's also fairly obvious to those who play PLD that a full Cure IV with enmity gear acquires more hate than a Flash.

Now my example is Khimaira. Truezero (my co-tanking PLD) and I acquire so much hate that we've reached an obvious cap. This is obvious because of our method of fighting Khimaira. Whenever a SAM has TP and Sneak Attack, the tank who DOESN'T have hate will move behind Khimaira and get hit with a SATA WS from the SAM. The PLD should have ample time to move around in front of it before it uses a TP move (and even if it does use Plague Swipe, it doesn't matter as the PLD has shadows). So anyway, Khimaira's on me, and Truezero flashes it. It turns to him, and starts attacking him. Clearly the amount of hate between us is the difference one Flash makes, since his Flash pulled hate off of me. A SAM is ready to WS, and since he has hate, I move behind it and get a WS on. The WS does 1,000 damage of fully transferable hate. Hate is transfered to me, so I move back around in front of it. At this point, I take two or three shadows, and then Truezero Flashes again, and hate goes back to him. Now anyone with any experience in this game will realize that 1,000 damage is MUCH more hate than a single Flash. Why, then, was he able to pull hate off of a 1,000 TA'd WS on another tank with a single Flash? Because obviously, there's a hate cap. This is only one example - any PLD with a good amount of experience will be able to find many other exampls in the course of his tanking career.

2) Hate degenerates.

Example - Whether you're talking about hate gained from Provoke, Flash, Cure, Sentinel, Souleater, Stun, or Bind, it's clear that all hate degenerates in some way (Elmer's magazine article said that cumulative hate doesn't degeneate, which is false). Since we have established that there is a hate cap, it follows logically to say that hate degenerates. This has to be true, otherwise, as someone stated before, by the end of an hour long fight, the mages who have been casting Stun, Cure spells, Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Bio, etc. would have accumulated so much hate that they themselves would be pulling hate off of the PLDs as they hit the hate cap themselves. Well, you might say that since mages generally wear -Enmity gear, that they don't hit hate cap - well, take this example.

Yesterday's Cerberus fight, I was fighting on DRK. As a DRK, I typically am able to Stun almost all the time from 100 -> 25% in order to buy the tanks more time for shadows. Also, I melee, and WS. Normally, if we have a full alliance and so on, I make liberal use of Souleater and Meditate, as well as meleeing, and WS rather often.

I do pull hate. Typically, a Seigan and Third Eye is enough to keep me alive, but I definitely pull hate since I TP with enmity merits, Cerberus Mantle, and Homam hands (combined total of +10 enmity). When you have tanks (PLD/NINs and NIN/DRKs) who are hitting the hate cap, and you pull hate on them, that means that you yourself have hit a hate cap (obvious, isn't it?). Well, after pulling hate I typically blink off a few hits with Third Eye or whatever and then move away when tanks recover hate. After waiting a minute or two, though, my hate is no longer an issue and I can move in again and continue stunning, fighting, WSing, and whatever - as long as I don't do so much that I hit the hate cap which the tanks are bouncing off of again, I'm more or less hate-free. So obviously, the hate degenerated while I was off to the side, waiting.

3) The hate gained from Provoke degenerates faster than other forms.

This was noted by Elmer's post. It seems that as you're fighting, Provoke is a very large enmity bonus, but by the time the reuse timer is up on it again, almost all of the hate that you have gained from using it has degenerated. This is why NIN/WAR isn't nearly as strong of a tank as NIN/DRK, because they lack serious hate tools apart from Provoke, and so as Provoke is decaying it becomes easy to pull hate off of them whereas a NIN/DRK has many hate tools available to them that degenerate slower than that of a Provoke.

Now, the formulas of course are impossible to prove, but I am certain that these three statements are true about enmity and hate as I've seen them occur over and over in fighting/tanking. I'm pretty sure most other tanks would agree, as well.