Do people still argue about enmity?

[Amele]

Amusingly, I'm usually wearing only in the area of -12 to -16 myself. (although I have gear to go into the -30's I rarely use it) typically solo or duo healing the entire alliance

personally, I concern myself more with the total gap between my - and my tanks' + enmity; once the gap is ~40 or more, usually it's rare for your actions to take hate.

going below about -25~ yourself is usually if you're trying to have less hate than either a weak-enmity tank (say, a nin/war in walmart nin exp gear instead of a tanking set) or if you're trying to guarantee you stay below misc. DD rather than just the tanks.

Interesting theory that you found, Elmer - but it's just that.

these are from recently published (japanese) guidebooks, so they're very nearly 'right from the horse's mouth'.

[Therin]

Interesting theory that you found, Elmer - but it's just that.

these are from recently published (japanese) guidebooks, so they're very nearly 'right from the horse's mouth'.

I don't believe that for a minute, considering how typically unwilling SE is to give out information concerning systematics of their game and also how generally inconsistent the "enmity guide" is with what we've already extrapolated from playing it ourselves.

To put it simply: If 1) If there was a hate cap, and 2) Enmity from curing didn't degenerate, by the end of a several-hour-long HNM fight, even a WHM with -40 enmity would be on the hate cap. There clearly is a hate cap, and the result which I just mentioned never happens (unless your tanks suck balls), therefore, enmity must degenerate.

[solsovly]

Interesting theory that you found, Elmer - but it's just that.

these are from recently published (japanese) guidebooks, so they're very nearly 'right from the horse's mouth'.

I don't believe that for a minute, considering how typically unwilling SE is to give out information concerning systematics of their game and also how generally inconsistent the "enmity guide" is with what we've already extrapolated from playing it ourselves.

To put it simply: If 1) If there was a hate cap, and 2) Enmity from curing didn't degenerate, by the end of a several-hour-long HNM fight, even a WHM with -40 enmity would be on the hate cap. There clearly is a hate cap, and the result which I just mentioned never happens (unless your tanks suck balls), therefore, enmity must degenerate.

The JP guides are how some of the information we have in the game was found. For instance some of the food effects (like % of sushi acc).

[Therin]

The JP guides are how some of the information we have in the game was found. For instance some of the food effects (like % of sushi acc).

Which can be tested easily assuming you've got the food and about ten minutes of free time. >_>

[solsovly]

The JP guides are how some of the information we have in the game was found. For instance some of the food effects (like % of sushi acc).

Which can be tested easily assuming you've got the food and about ten minutes of free time. >_>

So how would you test the +enmity of dorado sushi?

edit: testing a % of acc would take more of your time than 10 minutes.

[Therin]

The JP guides are how some of the information we have in the game was found. For instance some of the food effects (like % of sushi acc).

Which can be tested easily assuming you've got the food and about ten minutes of free time. >_>

So how would you test the +enmity of dorado sushi?

You said +accuracy, but even though you're arguing now about something entirely different, I'll admit that you can't accurately test +enmity as there are too many variables to do so - but it wouldn't be that hard to get a roundabout guess, which is all it would take, really. Provoke test would do the job nicely.

[solsovly]

The JP guides are how some of the information we have in the game was found. For instance some of the food effects (like % of sushi acc).

Which can be tested easily assuming you've got the food and about ten minutes of free time. >_>

So how would you test the +enmity of dorado sushi?

You said +accuracy, but even though you're arguing now about something entirely different, I'll admit that you can't accurately test +enmity as there are too many variables to do so - but it wouldn't be that hard to get a roundabout guess, which is all it would take, really. Provoke test would do the job nicely.

I'm not arguing about something entirely different. I said the JP guides have revealed useful information and picked a particular example of food effects (% of sushi). I was just saying that some of these JP guides do reveal things about the game that we normally wouldn't expect SE to release. You decided to take that particular example I used to argue.

[Therin]

I'm not arguing about something entirely different. I said the JP guides have revealed useful information and picked a particular example of food effects (% of sushi). I was just saying that some of these JP guides do reveal things about the game that we normally wouldn't expect SE to release. You decided to take that particular example I used to argue.

Most things about this game can be and have been tested at some point. 100% accurate results can't always be expected, but a lot of the rather complex formulas and intricacies of the game have been explored - it just takes a little more work. We've got a lot of people on this board that test a lot of complicated shit that you can't expect SE to release (Aurik, DV, Ruke, etc.). How can you assume that JPs don't do the same? Anyway, gotta run to lunch now, c u.

[Jeryhn]

Didn't the accurate info on food effects come from Studio Gobli, who got the info directly from SE themselves?

[Elmer the Pointy]

The chart is from Final Fantasy XI Job Masters Guide released in February 2007.

It would be great to see some testing while considering these theories and see what comes of it. So far I haven't found much else on Enmity in this or the other guides. I also checked the JP wiki and they don't say much either. These guides are usually spot on and follow player trends and have lots of detailed info. For example, people discovering VIT affects Cure spells and Jumps. On KI someone got flamed to hell and back for suggesting VIT=Jump dmg until the theory was resurrected and proved months later, but all along it was written in a 2004 Job Masters.

[Amele]

Interesting theory that you found, Elmer - but it's just that.

these are from recently published (japanese) guidebooks, so they're very nearly 'right from the horse's mouth'.

I don't believe that for a minute, considering how typically unwilling SE is to give out information concerning systematics of their game and also how generally inconsistent the "enmity guide" is with what we've already extrapolated from playing it ourselves.

To put it simply: If 1) If there was a hate cap, and 2) Enmity from curing didn't degenerate, by the end of a several-hour-long HNM fight, even a WHM with -40 enmity would be on the hate cap. There clearly is a hate cap, and the result which I just mentioned never happens (unless your tanks suck balls), therefore, enmity must degenerate.

at risk of having to re-explain what other people have already said and you've obviously just skipped reading: this guide is not inconsistent with your observations!

case 1) there is a hate cap (yeah. we agree, the guide doesn't talk about it at all, whether or not it exists)

arguing that the guide must be wrong because it doesn't address something is like arguing that newton must be wrong because his laws of motion don't address the existence of black holes.

case 2) presupposes that the hate cap is a) singular (in terms of volatile/cumulative not having seperate caps) and b) that in this event, volatile hate cannot exceed this cap (that is, it's a hard cap and not a soft cap). given that your example: khimaira and paladins, in both cases a paladin was overcoming a cumulative boost (SATA WS) with a volatile ability (flash) you haven't thoroughly proven your implied hypothesis with this statement.

in addition, several people have provided examples where it was pretty clear that there *is* a class of hate that doesn't decay over time; aurik's is probably the clearest example. this is not to say that *no* hate decays over time, just that some of it is lost only by taking damage/losing shadows/forcing a reset.

that and pretty much every whitemage on the thread is talking about how important taking damage in long fights is, expressly because you get owned otherwise.

your evidence in the 3) case in your original post pretty much supports -exactly- what the guide says, if you drop the poorly formed theory that all hate must degenerate. (most spell hate appears to be cumulative, based on the examples provided (flash is only spell in the volatile category), so nin/drk is 'better' than nin/war since the primary hate tool most likely changes from volatile to cumulative.)

did I satisfy all your questions about inconsistency, or do you need me to go over any of it in more detail?

[Elmer the Pointy]

Update for all that NIN/DRK talk.
Kurayami is stated as being cumulative and having it's own set level of enmity it generates. It's given as an example, like "Things such as Sleep and Kurayami," which implies Ninja magic altogether because Japanese love to be vague about everything. But I guess that's better than staying up too late and making errors

This kinda makes me wonder what type of enmity effect the PUP Attachment Optical Fiber gives. Any PUP can tell you that it increases enmity by a significant amount, but how? Raises hate cap? Multiplies Volatile Hate per action? Lowers decay rate of Volatile? Combination of these?

Adding in this slight derail... Unfortunately there's no explanation beyond the standard descriptions for most attachments. I was hoping for some Tactical Processor info but nope. It does confirm though that we get 3 Evasion (up to +35) and 3 Resist Slow boosts, so someone can take those yield signs of the Wiki.

[Jotaru]

Is it possible +/- enmity raises/lowers your enmity cap?

Haven't tanked an HNM fight lately, nor healed one (come to think of it, havent gone to any HNM as anything other than SAM/THF lately @_@) so I don't wanna go pullin' theories outta my ass, but would be interesting to test out... Possible to find a mob where a tank or two can hit the enmity cap, and stay at it reliably, and have a WHM with enmity- cureIV bomb people /flash / attempt to pull aggro? Obviously its still possible, at least in some form, as I've seen healers pull aggro in long fights, but I guess its debatable whether the tanks at the time were at the enmity cap.

Anyhow, just something interesting to ponder, would explain a lot of things if so.

[Ryko]

RDM/NIN

Best Hate In The Game.

Your sig is hilarious, btw.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2288/thatsluthn5.jpg

[Ashira]

Intensifying Cape loses it's usefulness in terms of MP after the first Cure III.

I keep mine on in my standing set (vs damage down (Umbra) or Cure V (Prism)) so that my HP is higher and slowly ticks up and has a higher base number for Martyr use, since unlike Devotion I will not have time to set up for Martyr, and will want it to be as effective as possible while still being efficient gear wise.

I could arguably put on Gigant here instead, which I do carry for Devotion... most of the time (depends on event etc as to whether I have room), but that requires more "work" and lowering that gear effectiveness thing (switching out after MP use, HP ticking up slowly and possibly losing 70 vs 20 when switching into Prism if needed, etc, switching back in for MP regain such as green eye statues in Dynamis)

I have never personally seen any enmity issues on my end in long HNM fights on my WHM, even with tank deaths, and we typically use only one WHM in such cases (fights like JoL I'm typically the desired WHM because of maxed Bar/Shell and gear concentration, as well as the fact our other regular WHM has a Gjallarhorn ). In Dynamis my only issues tend to be when I do so on purpose. /shrug

[Ashira]

ALSO

GRAMMAR NAZI

ITS = possessive

IT'S = IT IS

LEARN THEM. TREASURE THEM. USE THEM.

[Jotaru]

I tend not to use perfect grammar @ lunchtime when I haven't slept yet from the previous day ;_;

[Loren]

Small point, but Hide has nothing to do with sight or sound detection. The things that cause it to fail are: scent tracking and blood detection. See: Ahriman, Puks, undead, etc.

Hate cap is pretty easy to see, you'll get those newb PLDs in Dynamis or Limbus who start off an NM fight with Provoke/Flash/Bash etc. but if they stand there and don't do anything else then hate can be easily stolen with an average WS after about 20-30 seconds. The worst situation is the PLD getting a spell interrupted by some critical hit. HP lost + no Cure hate + standing dazed for 3 seconds.

[archibaldcrane]

Small point, but Hide has nothing to do with sight or sound detection. The things that cause it to fail are: scent tracking and blood detection. See: Ahriman, Puks, undead, etc.

Thanks, I was going to do this but couldn't muster up the energy.

[Khamsin]

The JP guides are how some of the information we have in the game was found. For instance some of the food effects (like % of sushi acc).

Which can be tested easily assuming you've got the food and about ten minutes of free time. >_>

So how would you test the +enmity of dorado sushi?

You said +accuracy, but even though you're arguing now about something entirely different, I'll admit that you can't accurately test +enmity as there are too many variables to do so - but it wouldn't be that hard to get a roundabout guess, which is all it would take, really. Provoke test would do the job nicely.

I think the point was that there are a variety of exact numbers known for various foods, many of which either can't be tested, or can't be tested easily. Yet, we know the exact evasion and ranged accuracy a particular food offers, for example. And we even know the exact stats of certain HQ foods that were just released before anyone has even made them yet.