Do people still argue about enmity?

[rydiu]

I don't want to take a huge dive into this argument as I already know what works for me, but one recurring theme I've noticed in this thread -- by people who say SE won't release any info, even to the JP player-base~

That may be a flawed argument as, with every MMO, there are bound to be at least a few developers who do enjoy playing their own game...they have the inside info and more than likely share, albeit conservatively - perhaps by making corrections to the JP wiki(s)...You won't see them coming out in public and posting all the secrets, but I suspect much of the JP info really is legit..

[Kyreth]

Is it possible +/- enmity raises/lowers your enmity cap?

Anyhow, just something interesting to ponder, would explain a lot of things if so.

If there is a base "enmity cap", something that works like a skill level bonus could in theory give you a higher max enmity or lower max enmity. I suppose it could be checked by getting two healers with whatever gear save for dis-similar levels of enmity reduction.

Build both up to beyond any theoretical maximum in hate with non-volatile enmity gain- Cure III/IV's on the tank would probably do nicely, as long as both players landed full Cures. Then allow the tank to lose enough hate to send the monster after the healers.

If -enmity reduces the "enmity cap", it'll go after the healer with less -enmity gear every time without fail, right?

[Ashira]

Or using volatile hate abilities spikes your hate up, and then drops back down to a now higher cumulative hate level; which I'm sure someone has said in here, but maybe not, because there's a lot of arguing and some formulas and such. And if no one has suggested it yet, then I'm really surprised.

I think people are taking the simplicity of the graphs too much at face value... they are very very simple graphs, and there's no quantitative amounts given to either factor on the charts, nor do they overlap, nor show *both* types of hate on one graph, nor does it even say that the levels on either graph are anywhere near equal. Just because it was drawn in a particular manner does not make it accurate; they were drawn for illustration purposes to make the point, but are in no way meant to give a true example.

[Seraph]

After looking at the OP and the following posts, my only observation is there is never a direct comparison between the different kinds of hate, or how they interact with each other. Sure, they offer two different graphs, but having those two overlapping would explain everything much better.

I tend to think that instead of direct competition, both Volatile and Cumulative hate stack in some way. You can establish a hate "floor" with Cumulative, and off that floor reach the hate "ceiling" with Volatile.

RDM/NIN and NIN/DRK works by making it's hate floor insanely high.

PLD/NIN works by raising its hate floor but spiking hate to the ceiling at the same time.

PLD/WAR works by jacking up its hate celiing, but maintains a much lower hate floor, causing a potantial threat for mages and DDs.

So, in my mind, the tanks that are using flash and certain JAs to keep hate do so by trying to ride the hate ceiling as best as possible. Tanks that use curing and other spells work by setting their hate floor much higher than competing hate gainers. I guess it's two different ways to achieve the same goal. If the book is right, it seems that a PLD/WAR type tank can 'max' out hate much faster, but has the potential to lose it much faster too. Something like a RDM/NIN raises hate slower, but can keep it at a much more constant level.

If this isn't the case, either there is a lower cap on Cumulative hate than Volatile hate, or the book is flat out wrong....

[Jotaru]

Perhaps true, but that'd be kinda tough to test... how can you be sure that they are even at the hate cap (or their own individual caps)... as if they weren't at the cap, it'd still go after the WHM with less -enmity. I guess the only way to prove/disprove that theory using that model would be to full out disprove it by having the mob go to the WHM with MORE -enmity, which I doubt would ever happen, and would just throw a wrench in all the workings. I donno ; ;

[Ashira]

Perhaps true, but that'd be kinda tough to test... how can you be sure that they are even at the hate cap (or their own individual caps)... as if they weren't at the cap, it'd still go after the WHM with less -enmity.

The hate cap isn't that difficult to see, as has been stated before. I've come in ten minutes late to Tiamat to dual tank, and with the other tank not really letting up on his spell/ability use, or just slowing it down a tad but not stopping, I still over time started pulling hate for a shadow or two loss, then he'd take it back, and back and forth etc.

And I think without using volatile hate abilities (e.g., casting spells/cures for the most part or just dealing damage (without ability use)), your cap will be a bit lower.

I do however, surmise that in addition to Cure V being an anomaly in the cumulative hate rule, perhaps Cure IV has a semi-volatile attribute in addition to the Cure cumulative attribute.

Also, on a random note, the casting of Escape and Teleport seems to have a high volatile value; I very well recall getting hit (and thus interrupted) by a mob when casting Escape in an emergency after the various Sleepgas for links did not pull hate from said mob after it was awakened by the damage dealers. It's what prompted me to make an Escape macro (once upon a time) asking for Flash/Stun/Provokes because I was casting Escape.

[Elmer the Pointy]

I tend to think that instead of direct competition, both Volatile and Cumulative hate stack in some way. You can establish a hate "floor" with Cumulative, and off that floor reach the hate "ceiling" with Volatile.

Or using volatile hate abilities spikes your hate up, and then drops back down to a now higher cumulative hate level; which I'm sure someone has said in here, but maybe not, because there's a lot of arguing and some formulas and such. And if no one has suggested it yet, then I'm really surprised.

That is pretty much how they say it works. Were there people in the thread who weren't considering that?

There are two types of enmity to consider, Volatile enmity, which decreases over time, and Cumulative enmity, which time has no effect on. The type of enmity you generate is dependent on the actions you take, and the sum of these determines your level of enmity. As a tank, you’ll want to raise both types to get the enemy to focus on you. As an attacker or healer, it’s best to wait until after the tank uses Provoke before using a Weapon Skill or healing spell.

[TB]

It's always bothered me, the question of, "How do we know food stats that aren't visable, or obviously testable?" People put so much effort into testing various things, it boggles my mind. Can't anyone answer this question with certainty?

IMO it is a good thing that not every single aspect is shown in clear numbers. Some stuff just needs to be hidden or this game and talking about it will probably we quite boring.

Same thing with Enmity. You need to get a feeling for enmity and the enmity your cotank generates. This is something you need to learn and which differs good tanks from bad tanks.

[Ashira]

[quote=Elmer the Pointy]
That is pretty much how they say it works. Were there people in the thread who weren't considering that?

There are two types of enmity to consider, Volatile enmity, which decreases over time, and Cumulative enmity, which time has no effect on. The type of enmity you generate is dependent on the actions you take, and the sum of these determines your level of enmity. As a tank, you’ll want to raise both types to get the enemy to focus on you. As an attacker or healer, it’s best to wait until after the tank uses Provoke before using a Weapon Skill or healing spell.

[/quote:263d8]


Yah, but everyone's screaming about why then do mages not get more hate, and blah blah blah RDM/NIN > PLD/ALL blah blah blah Flash blah blah Kurayami etc so on and so forth, and only talking about one OR the other and comparing/contrasting/arguing about the two as separate, and not a combined sort of thing. Or so it seemed after reading a while. Sort of. A lot of talk about the hate caps and such but only discussing one type or the other.

[Geneyus]

Burst II puts me at a cap of hate unattainable by normal citizens!

[RKenshin]

Why are people criticizing this explanation as if it's extremely specific about all aspects and leaves no room to explain certain situations that people seem to 'think' contradict it?

There is really no information at all on how the formulas work, how much +/- enmity matters, the balance of cumulative and volatile hate formulas and how they work together, etc... So really how can people try to judge as to whether or not they believe it's accurate beyond just thinking it is? Trying to prove it isn't accurate isn't really possible IMO.

There is seriously a near-infinite (or just a really damn high number) number of possible ways to balance whatever formulas they use to explain any situation here where people are skeptical. Something as simple as making volatile hate a stronger method of generating hate when you pass a certain high point of cumulative enmity would easily explain the illusion of a hate cap, give a reason as to why mages don't pull hate over long fights, etc. Seeing as mages don't typically generate volatile hate, and if they do it isn't often, where as a tank will do it almost constantly... And when two tanks are at the 'hate cap', all the smallest actions cause the mob to bounce between them. And then there, you have a possible explanation.

SE doesn't like to be simple when it comes to this stuff so I really doubt the formula is as cut and dry as the post may make it seem, and as normal they're probably just being extremely general and unspecific to make it easier to understand... Like they always do, which shouldn't confuse people into thinking the actual formulas are that simple. While this isn't exactly straight from the horse's mouth I'd say it's about as good as it gets, as Elmer said earlier. And it really makes sense with my observations as well.

[Seraph]

There are two types of enmity to consider, Volatile enmity, which decreases over time, and Cumulative enmity, which time has no effect on. The type of enmity you generate is dependent on the actions you take, and the sum of these determines your level of enmity. As a tank, you’ll want to raise both types to get the enemy to focus on you. As an attacker or healer, it’s best to wait until after the tank uses Provoke before using a Weapon Skill or healing spell.

Damn, I must have missed that...

Fair enough then. ^^

[ringthree]

because you know. there's no way they were talking about 'total in general' and 'specific exception' or anything, amirite?

When you say that time has an effect on the decay of enmity, and then specify that there are two types of enmity - one which time has an effect on, and one that it doesn't - how can you take it any other way?

Come on, this is 8th grade reading comprehension. They mean that time doesn't affect hate dissipation in the same way, that coupled with it being a translation means that your attempt at a literal reading to prove some kind of contradict is futile and useless.

[Eaglestrike]

Ok, I ignored a good bit of page 3, but...

If we go with the assumption that there is a cap on cumulative hate, wouldn't this mean that a few minutes into a fight, -enmity is completely useless for a healer? At least in fights where there is no hate reset, the tanks are always going to be at the sum of volatile and cumulative and right at the cap, even with all the cure spamming in the world the total of cumulative cure hate CANNOT get you over the sum of the tanks hate, so doesn't -enmity become completely useless in that situation?

[Amele]

Ok, I ignored a good bit of page 3, but...

If we go with the assumption that there is a cap on cumulative hate, wouldn't this mean that a few minutes into a fight, -enmity is completely useless for a healer? At least in fights where there is no hate reset, the tanks are always going to be at the sum of volatile and cumulative and right at the cap, even with all the cure spamming in the world the total of cumulative cure hate CANNOT get you over the sum of the tanks hate, so doesn't -enmity become completely useless in that situation?

possibly. it depends on what (if any) mix of volatile abilities your whitemage is using, along with whether or not the ever get hit (which would temporarily put you back below that 'cumulative cap' we're speculating about here.)

it would also depend on whether or not -enmity adjusts the level of the cap and whether or not -enmity improves your hate loss rate in the event that you are attacked, etc.

[ringthree]

Ok, I ignored a good bit of page 3, but...

If we go with the assumption that there is a cap on cumulative hate, wouldn't this mean that a few minutes into a fight, -enmity is completely useless for a healer? At least in fights where there is no hate reset, the tanks are always going to be at the sum of volatile and cumulative and right at the cap, even with all the cure spamming in the world the total of cumulative cure hate CANNOT get you over the sum of the tanks hate, so doesn't -enmity become completely useless in that situation?

Yes, and no, it depends on the situation and the ability of the tanks to stay at the hate cap. Even once the tanks hit the hate cap they can fall back from it by taking damage or not maintaining hate. The cap just means they can't gain any more enmity at that time and when you have two tanks at the hate cap you will get the ping-pong effect because each tank will not be able to get far ahead of the other but they can still lose enmity. This does not mean that you can't take actions that move yourself up to the hate cap with the tanks.

For example, although its not mentioned as much as TP burning Kirin, some LS's now straight tank Kirin, which is different than a lot of other protracted fights because the tanks end up still taking a huge amount of damage because of the directional AoE's. So the tanks can build a lot of hate like this but the healers can also, enough even to move them up to the hate level of a tank because of all the healing being done. So in this case -enmity is important to slow this progression toward the hate cap and to increase the speed of the dissipation of hate from time. (This is also why it's dumb to voke with +enmity gear then immediately take it off, but thats a whole different can of worms).

[Ferien]

Sorry if this has been asked already, but aren't these guide books not actually printed by SE?

[Kyreth]

Ok, I ignored a good bit of page 3, but...

If we go with the assumption that there is a cap on cumulative hate, wouldn't this mean that a few minutes into a fight, -enmity is completely useless for a healer? At least in fights where there is no hate reset, the tanks are always going to be at the sum of volatile and cumulative and right at the cap, even with all the cure spamming in the world the total of cumulative cure hate CANNOT get you over the sum of the tanks hate, so doesn't -enmity become completely useless in that situation?

If -Enmity gear also lowers the maximum cap cumulative enmity can reach, the gear is still useful in keeping a healer breathing, as it'd lower the "floor" somewhat and give you more room to survive a hate spike without getting aggro. Likewise, if +Enmity gear increases that cap (raises the floor) it still means tanks keep more stable hate over time, since it'd take less effort to keep yourself at the "ceiling".

[ringthree]

Ok, I ignored a good bit of page 3, but...

If we go with the assumption that there is a cap on cumulative hate, wouldn't this mean that a few minutes into a fight, -enmity is completely useless for a healer? At least in fights where there is no hate reset, the tanks are always going to be at the sum of volatile and cumulative and right at the cap, even with all the cure spamming in the world the total of cumulative cure hate CANNOT get you over the sum of the tanks hate, so doesn't -enmity become completely useless in that situation?

If -Enmity gear also lowers the maximum cap cumulative enmity can reach, the gear is still useful in keeping a healer breathing, as it'd lower the "floor" somewhat and give you more room to survive a hate spike without getting aggro. Likewise, if +Enmity gear increases that cap (raises the floor) it still means tanks keep more stable hate over time, since it'd take less effort to keep yourself at the "ceiling".

I don't think this is true because two tanks with unequal amounts of enmity gear and merits can still both reach the hate cap, and get the ping-pong effect.

[TB]

Ping-Pong effect doesn't really happen on 2 tanks with unequal amount of enmity, due to the one with more enmity being able to stay at the cap easier than the one with less...