Do people still argue about enmity?

[IfritnoItazura]

Enmity Overview

Two types of hate again: Volatile hate (Instantaneous hate) , Cumulative hate (Stored hate)

Volatile hate
Cumulative hate

Elmer,

Would you mind having a look at these and give your opinions on them:
- ???(??????/Enmity)
- ???(???/Hate)
- ?????(??????)
- ?????(???????)

Would appreciate it.

[Jotaru]

As far as volatile vs. cumulative enmity goes with respect to enmity decay... seems there is a lot of debate and confusion, but the following seems like a pretty good representation of how it works (read through the entire flow before you get your panties in a bunch):

'Volatile' abilities give a large amount of enmity with a set duration: Provoke gives X amount of enmity, but you lose that X amount in 20-30 seconds, completely.
v
v
v
'Cumulative' abilities give a moderate amount of enmity with no set duration: Cure III gives you Y amount of enmity, with no set time before it is depleted.
v
v
v
'Total' enmity is the sum of both 'Volatile' and 'Cumulative' enmity. Add those two previous ones together. This TOTAL degenerates over time, regardless of what form of enmity, as it is the TOTAL that has a deplete/time effect.


Seems pretty accurate to.. hell, almost any situation I have ever seen in my three years playing, and has the added benefit of not negating either of the points that FFXI guide pointed out- perhaps it just had bad wording / odd translation. 'Cumulative' enmity, in a sense, doesn't decrease over time per se, but the total does, so if you want to argue semantics one could say that it DOES degenerate over time... but I imagine the guide (and the game) works more along the lines of the above model.

Edit: Cliffnotes - I'm not saying this is 100% omg4shure what happens, its my idea of how it works, and a theory that would not negate the two seemingly 'differing' points the FFXI guide posted presents. Its quite possible, if you look at it this way, that it was not actually contradicting itself.

[TB]

Ping-Pong effect doesn't really happen on 2 tanks with unequal amount of enmity, due to the one with more enmity being able to stay at the cap easier than the one with less...

I disagree, have done it with a PLD, and pretty radically different enmity set-ups. Magic (stun, healing, etc) makes it very easy to stay at cap.

PLD and NIN are using different spells (which add different amount of enmity) for getting hat so this comparison fails.

I pretty much agree with what Ferien said here, +enmity is for getting to the hate cap as fast as you can, after you are at the hate cap its of lesser importance.

Ok next time i will just go afk when I reached the cap in defense gear and have everyone just cure me...

[Jotaru]

If that were true, he would have some sort of a point, as to reach the 'hate cap' you not only have to hold your enmity level steady, you need to gain, and gain faster than the DD's / healers / etc. Once you're at the supposed cap you would just need to hold it steady by offsetting your losses... Not to say tanks should get at the cap and just go afk <_< But the amount of enmity you'd need to continuously build if you hit a cap in order to retain aggro would go down.

BTW, tried to make a picture of my last post, to kinda give it a visible form, but I really suck at that kinda stuff ,_, It' be somewhat like adding both volatile and cumulative together from the OP, but with a slight degeneration of the grand total to account for enmity lost to time, if anyone wants to have a go.

[ringthree]

Ping-Pong effect doesn't really happen on 2 tanks with unequal amount of enmity, due to the one with more enmity being able to stay at the cap easier than the one with less...

I disagree, have done it with a PLD, and pretty radically different enmity set-ups. Magic (stun, healing, etc) makes it very easy to stay at cap.

PLD and NIN are using different spells (which add different amount of enmity) for getting hat so this comparison fails.

Huh? No, just no.

I pretty much agree with what Ferien said here, +enmity is for getting to the hate cap as fast as you can, after you are at the hate cap its of lesser importance.

Ok next time i will just go afk when I reached the cap in defense gear and have everyone just cure me...

Your attempt at sarcasm fails, and just kind of proves that you don't understand the discussion.

[Elmer the Pointy]

[cassiraa]

Amazing Discovery

Some of these things that I've guessed at for years. Specifically the "based off the mob's HP" one, I remember testing that. on my RDM, hit a la'thiene bunny for 1/2 it's life, and having my PLD Voke, Rampart, Flash to no avail.


As for the other thing, It might mean that a WHM's Flash is OK in a long fight, because as long as the flash itself doesn't pull hate, if it's "Volatile" enmity, Most of the Flash enmity should be gone by the time the recast is up, according to this.

[Amele]

Hate degrades over time, all of it.

overview references enmity reducing as a result of the passage of time; I interpret this section to be discussing *total* hate, as it lists ways to increase hate that are both cumulative and volatile. given that the sum of a time varying function and a constant (f(t)=g(t)+c) also varies in time; then it is a true statement that because volatile hate is reduced by the passage of time, one of the ways to reduce total hate is to simply stand around doing nothing.

the statement in the overview never claims that you can reduce your enmity to zero (except in reference to 'enmity reset' moves).

so that's resolved.

Not so fast.

1. Honestly, the logic function doesn't make much sense because NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN can go full fights without ever using a volatile hate action, so a variation would not occur in that case, making the time varying function irrelevent, rendering the statement false. (God, I took logic so long ago, hope that is correct).

nin/drk is pretty easy to reconcile if you assume that some spells generate volatile hate (flash is listed as an explicit example) and stun happens to be one of them; as for rdm/nin it would really heavily depend on what kind of enmity enfeebles cause - they're probably cumulative though (given that bind and sleep and blind(kuryami) are)

you're right about your logic - the issue we need to resolve is whether or not rdm/nin really does hold hate 'forever' or if it's just holding hate "long enough". (I have to admit I don't have much experience with rdm/nin tanks so I can't comment on how/if it works with my theory at this time) can rdm/nin pingpong hate with the same efficiency as pld/nin and nin/drk?

2. In practice, this is not the case if we allow the assumption of the hate cap (which has evidence for its existence with the "ping-pong" effect). As I said before, if cumulative hate did not reduce over time then the mob would eventually go and at least hit the BLM, WHM and RDM in a protracted fight at some point at least, and likely pretty often. Since you can have protracted fights without the mob ever touching the mages they have to be losing hate some how.

I think I showed that this isn't quite the case, although I do have an unresolved contradiction in rdm/nin currently (basically: I need more data) unless of course, there's something more to Cure IV than strict cumulative hate?

3. I would agree though that there are certain hate "floors." Sight aggro being one, and you can even lose that, but its not very relevant to the discussion.

agreed.

your statement here assumes that the cap on hate is a hard cap. this is not necessarily the case: the cap on hate could be a soft cap, which volatile abilities exceed but cumulative cannot; or it could be a cap only on cumulative hate; or there could be a cap on both separately, which is then summed to find 'total' hate.

given how the average tank is constantly spiking their volatile hate, and generally speaking a mage *is not* any of these alternate cases would result in an invalidation of the conclusion you draw here (or rather, it would preclude the need to draw the conclusion because this change to the initial assumption about the "hate cap" removes the inconsistency of expected behavior versus observed results in battle)

Hard or soft cap is pretty irrelevant to the discussion; if cumulative hate never dissipates then in a protracted fight the mages are going to get swatted at because they are going to get close to the tanks in their level of hate. Meaning, at some point the tanks will take some damage and drop below a WHM which, if they have hit the cumulative hate cap in your example, will get swatted at. [/quote]

just reiterating; "close to" won't count in this case (since generally speaking hnm's only have one target at a time)

you're also assuming that the time-wise reduction on volatile hate is strong enough that it will be reduced to 0. (I'm not sure whether this is true or not either honestly.) if the time-wise reduction is slower than that, then it's possible to hold yourself at least a small distance *above* the soft cap more or less indefinitely, especially if you're sharing the cumulative loss damage with another tank.

Another problem with your "soft cap" scenario is that there would be an imbalance between certain tanks once the "soft cap" on hate is reached, and a PLD/NIN would be able to dominate in hate over a NIN/DRK or a RDM/NIN because of Flash. Since from observable experience we can prove this is not the case and the "ping-pong" effect occurs no matter the kind of hate generation, we can say that this "soft cap" likely does not exist.

well, I'm still leaning toward stun being an example of volatile hate, in which case nin and pld hold hate against each other smoothly.

again, I'm not familiar with rdm/nin so I can't really argue this point with you - does your shell use them regularly? maybe someone who does can chime in here if yours doesn't.

as for ockham's razor, it really depends on which side of the hypothesis you're standing on: my hate-theory has fewer overall assumptions (requiring just a single assumption about the nature of the hate cap) both of us require roughly equal categorization of hate generating moves (since we have the same base set to work with) but as for the complexity of the conclusions; I agree that yours is probably the simpler solution set (which is typical of systems where there are more assumptions; effectively front-loading alot of what must otherwise be part of a conclusion).

for the record, I appreciate the civil debate we're having; if I were spectating I'd totally be leaning toward your side due in large part to the rdm/nin argument

[Nirokun!]

ashira!

i've noticed that thing about tele/escape too

but not being hit during the cast >_> i dont think the actual casting of anything gives hate, only the effect of the spell being cast. otherwise tanks would run in circles casting flash and interrupting it, not having to rely on timers :D

[Ashira]

ashira!

i've noticed that thing about tele/escape too

but not being hit during the cast >_> i dont think the actual casting of anything gives hate, only the effect of the spell being cast. otherwise tanks would run in circles casting flash and interrupting it, not having to rely on timers :D

Mm, there is some small bit of hate just from actual casting... I've noticed it on SMN too, when I dismissed (which is also use of an ability) and chose to resummon right next to a mob at the beginning of a fight and getting whacked once I started to cast.

Plus I think the original post by Elmer, it was on the list, so it was nice to get the confirmation at least

[wunjo_on_ramuh]

As for the other thing, It might mean that a WHM's Flash is OK in a long fight, because as long as the flash itself doesn't pull hate, if it's "Volatile" enmity, Most of the Flash enmity should be gone by the time the recast is up, according to this.

I remember when I started using Flash regularly in xp party on my WHM - it was leveling on Processonaires in The Boyahda Tree. After that experience, I used it religously. Up until that time, I had been very afraid of using it since I had read of its hate spike. After I started using it, I realized that I very rarely pulled hate with it.

[Ferien]

Amazing Discovery

Some of these things that I've guessed at for years. Specifically the "based off the mob's HP" one, I remember testing that. on my RDM, hit a la'thiene bunny for 1/2 it's life, and having my PLD Voke, Rampart, Flash to no avail.

He translated stuff from the JP Wiki. Normal wiki rules apply, namely: take everything with a grain of salt.

The dynamics of enmity are extremely difficult to run controlled tests on, and unless someone comes up with an example of some of the controlled tests done to test this info, a lot of it can be dismissed. I'm not trying to say what's written is wrong, because a good portion of it is easily proven (30 unit distance for hate, progressive decay of hate from damage to name a few) just that until the official tests are brought up, things like "Hate = Damage*(1+Enmity/100)" can't just be accepted as truth because someone wrote it on a wiki. While this has been speculated for the last 4 years, it's probably one of the hardest things in the game to actually empirically test, and as such, any tests should be the most scrutinized.

[IfritnoItazura]

Thanks, Elmer.

[TB]

Ping-Pong effect doesn't really happen on 2 tanks with unequal amount of enmity, due to the one with more enmity being able to stay at the cap easier than the one with less...

I disagree, have done it with a PLD, and pretty radically different enmity set-ups. Magic (stun, healing, etc) makes it very easy to stay at cap.

PLD and NIN are using different spells (which add different amount of enmity) for getting hat so this comparison fails.

Huh? No, just no.

Dude you said you encountered ping pong hate between a NIN and a PLD while both persons had different amount of Enmity in gear. I said that this comparison lacks, cause PLD and NIN don't build hate at the same curve. Read again....

I pretty much agree with what Ferien said here, +enmity is for getting to the hate cap as fast as you can, after you are at the hate cap its of lesser importance.

Ok next time i will just go afk when I reached the cap in defense gear and have everyone just cure me...

Your attempt at sarcasm fails, and just kind of proves that you don't understand the discussion.

I do understand the discussion, but I wonder how you want to have encountered the hate cap or ping-pong hate among the hate cap? On Sky gods?

You might want to tank a HNM that goes over 30min with a top notch PLD/NIN or RDM/NIN, so you can really get a feeling for enmity and reaching the cap. It is nothing you can speak about when you haven't encountered it yet. Stop making up weird arguments about something you have no idea about.

I can tell you from own experience that you gonna NEED all the enmity you can get as NIN to keep yourself at the cap against a RDM/NIN, due to the RDM having the ultimate hate tool (Cure4).

[SephYuyX]

Mm, there is some small bit of hate just from actual casting... I've noticed it on SMN too, when I dismissed (which is also use of an ability) and chose to resummon right next to a mob at the beginning of a fight and getting whacked once I started to cast.

You notice this alot playing BST, doing any sort of action, attack, retreat, etc will find the mob coming after you instead.

[Ferien]

Ping-Pong effect doesn't really happen on 2 tanks with unequal amount of enmity, due to the one with more enmity being able to stay at the cap easier than the one with less...

I disagree, have done it with a PLD, and pretty radically different enmity set-ups. Magic (stun, healing, etc) makes it very easy to stay at cap.

PLD and NIN are using different spells (which add different amount of enmity) for getting hat so this comparison fails.

Huh? No, just no.

Dude you said you encountered ping pong hate between a NIN and a PLD while both persons had different amount of Enmity in gear. I said that this comparison lacks, cause PLD and NIN don't build hate at the same curve. Read again....

I pretty much agree with what Ferien said here, +enmity is for getting to the hate cap as fast as you can, after you are at the hate cap its of lesser importance.

Ok next time i will just go afk when I reached the cap in defense gear and have everyone just cure me...

Your attempt at sarcasm fails, and just kind of proves that you don't understand the discussion.

I do understand the discussion, but I wonder how you want to have encountered the hate cap or ping-pong hate among the hate cap? On Sky gods?

You might want to tank a HNM that goes over 30min with a top notch PLD/NIN or RDM/NIN, so you can really get a feeling for enmity and reaching the cap. It is nothing you can speak about when you haven't encountered it yet. Stop making up weird arguments about something you have no idea about.

I can tell you from own experience that you gonna NEED all the enmity you can get as NIN to keep yourself at the cap against a RDM/NIN, due to the RDM having the ultimate hate tool (Cure4).

I've had the same experience he has as PLD/NIN while tanking with NIN/DRKs and other PLD/NINs. Regardless of their enmity levels, once we're at the hate cap, if the fight is going smoothly, hate flows. No, this isn't on sky gods, this is on Jorm, Cerb, etc. As long as neither of us suddenly take an abnormal amount of damage, regardless of our enmity difference, we can still bounce hate among each other. Like I said earlier, the only time it becomes difficult is if they suddenly have hate wiped or take too much damage too quickly and have to bring themselves back up to the cap with me.

That being said, you can't go afk once you're there. That's retarded. We already know from experience that even at the cap, all hate will degrade with time, and as your Flash's "Volatile Hate" wears off, you need to keep pushing that up. The argument, however, is that maybe once you are at the hate cap, as long as you're still doing what you can to simply maintain hate, that you don't need all of your enmity and can switch to a different setup while keeping yourself at the cap.

[ringthree]

Ping-Pong effect doesn't really happen on 2 tanks with unequal amount of enmity, due to the one with more enmity being able to stay at the cap easier than the one with less...

I disagree, have done it with a PLD, and pretty radically different enmity set-ups. Magic (stun, healing, etc) makes it very easy to stay at cap.

PLD and NIN are using different spells (which add different amount of enmity) for getting hat so this comparison fails.

Huh? No, just no.

Dude you said you encountered ping pong hate between a NIN and a PLD while both persons had different amount of Enmity in gear. I said that this comparison lacks, cause PLD and NIN don't build hate at the same curve. Read again....

I pretty much agree with what Ferien said here, +enmity is for getting to the hate cap as fast as you can, after you are at the hate cap its of lesser importance.

Ok next time i will just go afk when I reached the cap in defense gear and have everyone just cure me...

Your attempt at sarcasm fails, and just kind of proves that you don't understand the discussion.

I do understand the discussion, but I wonder how you want to have encountered the hate cap or ping-pong hate among the hate cap? On Sky gods?

You might want to tank a HNM that goes over 30min with a top notch PLD/NIN or RDM/NIN, so you can really get a feeling for enmity and reaching the cap. It is nothing you can speak about when you haven't encountered it yet. Stop making up weird arguments about something you have no idea about.

I can tell you from own experience that you gonna NEED all the enmity you can get as NIN to keep yourself at the cap against a RDM/NIN, due to the RDM having the ultimate hate tool (Cure4).

I think the situation is much closer to you not really understanding what I am referencing, or how the hate cap works. Perhaps you can explain why you need enmity to keep up with a RDM/NIN when you are both at the hate cap? If you both have a much hate as you can possibly get, then the amount of hate from any action is just replenishing yourself from damage you take or time degradation. Cure IV doesn't matter if only 100hp of it is used to gain hate, and the rest is lost because you can't get above the hate cap. This is why the ping-pong effect happens, and why if two tanks are both at the cap it doesn't matter what they use to get hate or what job they are. Remember, I never said that enmity is useless once you are at the cap, just that its less important because hate will be wasted on actions that would put you above the cap.

Sadly, it looks like you want to go the route of your e-peen justifying your argument instead of logic. If there is a hate cap, for which, I with my tiny, one might even say measly or weak or poor, perhaps pathetic, maybe even pitiful tanking experience, have witnessed (not to mention the plethora of other HNM *swoons* tanks) then the need for enmity once you hit the hate cap is reduced because you can not get more hate than the cap. Thats why its called a cap.

[Kyreth]

[[*]The amount of hate gained or lost from taking/receiving/healing damage is not absolute, but is based on a percentage of the target's total HP. For example, a 100 damage attack will generate different amounts of hate on a monster with 500HP as opposed to 1000HP.[*]The greater a tank's HP pool is, the less hate he will lose from every hit he takes. Furthermore, the greater his max HP, the less hate healers will draw from each Cure

This makes some interesting notes towards Tarutaru PLD's as opposed to say, a Galka- the Tarutaru will (given similar gear) take a larger % of his HP per hit, be able to generate more hate via self-healing, but also generate more hate for a healer when being cured for the same amount (as it'll be a higher % of the PLD's HP being recovered) AND lose more hate from being hit by an identical amount of HP than someone with higher max HP. A blood tank is more stable on hate with a higher base HP, in other words.

I wonder how Regen spells work? Set amount of enmity, perhaps?

[ringthree]

I wonder how Regen spells work? Set amount of enmity, perhaps?

I could have sworn I read somewhere that Regen gives a set amount of hate.

[Amele]

I wonder how Regen spells work? Set amount of enmity, perhaps?

I could have sworn I read somewhere that Regen gives a set amount of hate.

I would assume it's similar in hate profile to refresh. (both are recovery over time of hp or mp) and is probably one of the advantages to a regen spec whitemage vs. a cure spec whitemage.