Do people still argue about enmity?

[jerkbox]

In other enmity news, they need to nerf rdm/nin.

Beat me to it

Seriously, RDM/NIN is ridiculously broken in terms of tanking. Not only is Sleep/Bind/Dispel hate spam broken but a RDM/NIN with AF2 body for 45% Ichi casts is just retarded. Thing is, there's really no way to fix their hate gain/survivability without breaking other parts of the game...

personally to you - how is it broken? how does it change your gameplay experience, ever?

which event that you currently do with your linkshell would be different the day after they changed rdm/nin?

I'm using 'broken' really loosely here. I don't mean it disrupts my gameplay or changes how my linkshell does things - Just meant RDM is way better than it should be for tanking. And personally for me, I prefer tanking on RDM/NIN over PLD/NIN just because it's so much easier. I used to swear by PLD/NIN but after trying Tiamat and Byakko as RDM/NIN, I'm never going back :\ Just has so much survival and hate utilities...

[Darcain]

I agree with TB on this. Yes you will reach the hate cap and yes once you are there you would just have to remain neutral to keep the same hate, if it was just you on the mob and you were taking no dmg. The hate of others is always changing and gettting closer to the cap. I think that as others get closer to the cap it increases your own decay. As others do actions to generate enimity in theory couldnt it lowere your own enimity or increase you enimity decay?

[Ferien]

From all of my experience, the only thing that might lower the enmity of others in the group is Provoke. Besides that possibility, the only other ways are time, jumps, roars (etc), and damage taken. If your BLM pulls off a big nuke, all that does is add to his hate total.

Once both tanks are at the hate cap, it becomes very easy to pingpong hate back and forth. This should be a testament to the fact that having others at the cap doesn't increase your hate decay, because if that was the case it would be much more difficult to do so.

[ringthree]

I agree with TB on this. Yes you will reach the hate cap and yes once you are there you would just have to remain neutral to keep the same hate, if it was just you on the mob and you were taking no dmg. The hate of others is always changing and gettting closer to the cap. I think that as others get closer to the cap it increases your own decay. As others do actions to generate enimity in theory couldnt it lowere your own enimity or increase you enimity decay?

One quick question before talking about Tonnberry's example: You say "I think that as others get closer to the cap it increases your own decay." Do you have any evidence at all of this? I do not think anyone has ever suggested there being a comparative hate loss, and again since balancing hate at the cap can be done with two tanks, I think there is good evidence against this being the case.

Now on with the show.

There are two fundamental problems with Tonnberry's example.

1. It does not indicate "overflow" of enmity. It shows a perfect world in which each action would take you right to the point of the cap. In reality, if the mob is already bouncing back and forth between two tanks, then that means they are going over the hate cap with each action, and the mob is just going after the most recent action. To best utilize this situation, you would want to replace enmity with other more beneficial stats e.g. HP or Haste to the point where you are still hitting the cap with each action. Here is a good example of what I am talking about. If we are all correct that there is a hate cap, then there are two phases to any fight in which the hate cap is a consideration. Phase 1 - Hate Build and Phase 2 - Hate Maintenance. During Phase 1, a NIN/DRK could use an Arhat's Jinpachi +1 because it has more enmity to help them move to the hate cap faster, but during Phase 2, that same NIN/DRK could switch to a Walahra Turban, for the additional HP and Haste, if they are still maintaining balanced hate at the cap. Of course, no one is advocating removing enmity if you can not stay at the hate cap, that is just ludicrous.

2. Tonnberry's illustration is spurious at best, as it assumes that there is only one tank at a time and it operates completely on the notion that a tank with less +enmity will lose more hate from mob action or time. This may or may not be true (it probably is) but the illustration of the fact is incredibly over exaggerated in an attempt to justify his point, because if two tanks are truly at the hate cap the marginal difference in loss of hate does not disrupt an entire fight. As someone else already indicated, when hate is lost by one tank, the mob doesn't decide to randomly go after someone else, it goes after the other tank. This is why people are able to hit the hate cap, it would be far more difficult for one tank to hit the hate cap and stay there that the normal situation of two tanks. Tonnberry's illustration only works if there is one tank, and that is rarely the case. If your BLM is over-nuking with one tank then they deserve to lose the XP.

Reality in a tanking situation where hate is capped between two tanks just does not pan out compared to Tonnberry's illustration.

Enmity is best used to get to the hate cap as quickly as possible, but once there the amount of enmity you have is going to have a much diminished impact because it will only be effecting hate lose, not hate gain.

[Septimus]

In other enmity news, they need to nerf rdm/nin.

Beat me to it

Seriously, RDM/NIN is ridiculously broken in terms of tanking. Not only is Sleep/Bind/Dispel hate spam broken but a RDM/NIN with AF2 body for 45% Ichi casts is just retarded. Thing is, there's really no way to fix their hate gain/survivability without breaking other parts of the game...

Best hate in the muthafucking gaaaaaaaaaame (just give it 10 minutes to justify its existence, ignore the fact that in 10 minutes faf would be at like 15% if you didn't sit there waiting for the buildup. Guess that's what chainspell is for I guess.)

I agree. This whole RDM/NIN tanking thing has me mystified. "Wow a RDM/NIN can build up a lot of hate and use shadows to mitigate damage!" So can a PLD/NIN, and the PLD will build it faster and can survive a few hits if his/her shadows are down. I don't see the point in having to wait 5-10 minutes for a pseudo-tank to get hate when you could use a real tank and get to damaging it right away.

[ringthree]

In other enmity news, they need to nerf rdm/nin.

Beat me to it

Seriously, RDM/NIN is ridiculously broken in terms of tanking. Not only is Sleep/Bind/Dispel hate spam broken but a RDM/NIN with AF2 body for 45% Ichi casts is just retarded. Thing is, there's really no way to fix their hate gain/survivability without breaking other parts of the game...

Best hate in the muthafucking gaaaaaaaaaame (just give it 10 minutes to justify its existence, ignore the fact that in 10 minutes faf would be at like 15% if you didn't sit there waiting for the buildup. Guess that's what chainspell is for I guess.)

I agree. This whole RDM/NIN tanking thing has me mystified. "Wow a RDM/NIN can build up a lot of hate and use shadows to mitigate damage!" So can a PLD/NIN, and the PLD will build it faster and can survive a few hits if his/her shadows are down. I don't see the point in having to wait 5-10 minutes for a pseudo-tank to get hate when you could use a real tank and get to damaging it right away.

I was kind of wondering the same myself when someone said they tanked Byakko as RDM/NIN. LOL By the time they got hate Byakko would be dead in 90% of situations. Do most RDM/NIN just convert before fights then Cure IV bomb themselves to get initial hate? If they just start a fight with SATA hate, then an RDM/NIN is just as good as a WHM/NIN or just about anything /NIN.

[TB]

Why am I still arguing with you? ...

Phase 1 - Hate Build and Phase 2 - Hate Maintenance. During Phase 1, a NIN/DRK could use an Arhat's Jinpachi +1 because it has more enmity to help them move to the hate cap faster, but during Phase 2, that same NIN/DRK could switch to a Walahra Turban, for the additional HP and Haste, if they are still maintaining balanced hate at the cap.

Um you should always wear max haste gear on NIN/DRK...

2. Tonnberry's illustration is spurious at best, as it assumes that there is only one tank at a time ...

This illustration was only to emphasize that 1 person should wear as much enmity as possible to maintan staying at the cap. You did read the part where I said it doesnt claim to be complete, right? You can read, right?

but the illustration of the fact is incredibly over exaggerated in an attempt to justify his point

It's not exaggerated.

Why do you always have to make shit up? Like the stuff with the illustration being far away from reality? This is not an illustration for 2 tanks. This is an illustration showing a comparsison of 2 enmity sets on one person. Is it really so hard for you to imagine a second identical curve for cotank? Do I really have to draw another one, just to make you shut up?

Good lord you haven't changed at all....

[Ferien]

Why am I still arguing with you? ...

Phase 1 - Hate Build and Phase 2 - Hate Maintenance. During Phase 1, a NIN/DRK could use an Arhat's Jinpachi +1 because it has more enmity to help them move to the hate cap faster, but during Phase 2, that same NIN/DRK could switch to a Walahra Turban, for the additional HP and Haste, if they are still maintaining balanced hate at the cap.

Um you should always wear max haste gear on NIN/DRK...

His point is better illustrated with PLD/NIN tbh. Basically, wear your Haste/Enmity set to get yourself to the Hate cap, and theoretically, once you're there, you can switch to a Haste/Defense build and achieve the same effect you would have with your original build.

It's really a simple concept to grasp if you've ever tanked something for a long period of time. You get to the hate cap, and at that point, if you're doing your job, you stay there. You cast your spells to simply bring yourself back to the cap, because you're not getting higher. Theoretically, if you only need 25 "Hate units" to get back to the cap, and your Stun/Flash/Whatever is giving you 30 while you're enmity-neutral, what the hell difference does it make if you've got +5 enmity on vs +30? Your spell is still only going to bring you to the cap.

Theoretically, though it's pretty well-observed, the only time you need your Enmity+ is when you're starting the fight and building towards the cap, or if you've just taken a massive amount of damage or gotten roared and need to rebuild your hate. It's the same reason people say that after +25~30 enmity, it's not worth it, but mages will pop in and say they can see the effects when they have it on the negative side.

[Amele]

It's the same reason people say that after +25~30 enmity, it's not worth it, but mages will pop in and say they can see the effects when they have it on the negative side.

I'll pop in and say that the only time I see the effect of more than -20~25 is when my tanks have significantly less than +25 on, and are not near/at cap. (I think the overall 'gap' is what's most important, past about 40~50 difference it starts to become silly and overkill).

I suppose in theory additional enmity- will make it take you even longer to reach 'dangerous' levels but in practice -20 is already plenty in 90%+ of normal situations.

[Quizno]

I think I'm not completely understanding something about the game mechanics.


If there is an actual cap on enmity, then what allows another job to pull hate off of a PLD?

If a pld has reached "capped hate" and say a blm then reaches capped hate as well, does it become random who the monster will attack next?

Or is there a "capped hate" that is sustainable, with a buffer of hate that can exceed this level for a short amount of time?

I'm going to reread this thread, if it has been answered already I'll remove my post.

[ringthree]

Why am I still arguing with you? ...

It's an open forum, you can pick to post or not post. I enjoy the debate.

Phase 1 - Hate Build and Phase 2 - Hate Maintenance. During Phase 1, a NIN/DRK could use an Arhat's Jinpachi +1 because it has more enmity to help them move to the hate cap faster, but during Phase 2, that same NIN/DRK could switch to a Walahra Turban, for the additional HP and Haste, if they are still maintaining balanced hate at the cap.

Um you should always wear max haste gear on NIN/DRK...

Ummm... shit is situational? Isn't that like BG mantra by now? LOL Or are you really making the argument that NIN/DRK should be wearing Blitz Rings?

2. Tonnberry's illustration is spurious at best, as it assumes that there is only one tank at a time ...

This illustration was only to emphasize that 1 person should wear as much enmity as possible to maintan staying at the cap. You did read the part where I said it doesnt claim to be complete, right? You can read, right?

I love the "you can read, right?" quip when you then ignore the next line of my argument, hell almost all of my argument. LOL Lets try to cut out the personal attacks.

I responded to your comment about 1 person wearing as much enmity as possible already several times. I even specifically said that your assumption maybe true about +enmity effecting hate loss, but it was not as much as you claimed, thus my comment about exaggeration... Your chart gives an example of hate loss hurting a tank much more than hate gained. If you want to discuss how +enmity gear effects hate loss due to damage and time, I would love to engage in that, because that is not as obvious and as using enmity to gain hate. I have already preemptively made several arguments about that in the last post, which you chose to ignore.

but the illustration of the fact is incredibly over exaggerated in an attempt to justify his point

It's not exaggerated.

Why do you always have to make shit up? Like the stuff with the illustration being far away from reality? This is not an illustration for 2 tanks. This is an illustration showing a comparsison of 2 enmity sets on one person. Is it really so hard for you to imagine a second identical curve for cotank? Do I really have to draw another one, just to make you shut up?

Good lord you haven't changed at all....

Ahh, neither have you. I gave several reasons why your graph didn't really come close to a real tanking situation, and also how a situation with two tanks would be different, because they would be losing even less hate due to mob action and thus able to stay closer to the cap. And ultimately, that any BLM that managed to get so much hate from a tank in a hate cap situation is so dumb they deserve to die. But you can just ignore those arguments too, if you like.

I know your graph is not perfect, I am just saying it is far less perfect than you think it is, and it is so flawed as to not support your argument, which is really the most important thing here.

Oh and Tonnberry, this isn't your LS forum. I am not going away. You can't go running to the leaders every time you want to get someone you don't agree with kicked out. I am enjoying this discussion on enmity. If you don't think you can engage in a civil manner, then just stop posting here, no one is forcing your hand.

[Carnusty]

Ummm... shit is situational? Isn't that like BG mantra by now? LOL Or are you really making the argument that NIN/DRK should be wearing Blitz Rings?

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/0/05/BlitzRing.jpg

lawwwwwwwwllllllllllllll

[Emufarmer]

Yo, cleaning up a few RDM/NIN issues brought up here.

Firstly yes, RDM/NIN can ping-pong with other tanks. NINs, PLDs, DRKs, anything.

Secondly, it doesn't take nearly as much time as 10min to build enmity on rdm. It is true that a pld could build hate a bit faster, especially /war, but honestly after 1min of debuff spam at most a good rdm geared with nsome enmity+ is on par with any tank (especially if they can sneak a cure4 or two in). Unless you start a fight with SA Gekko there shouldnt be any reason to hold damage any longer with rdm tanks than another tank.

Third, on the notes of hate capping, I have noticed these effects best on JoL. My LS has been using rdm/nin to tank JoL (soo good) because of enmity/MDB/blinking tier4s ect... Anyway, after regen is gone, obviously our tank(s) are at hate cap. When kraken/rdill/mkris drks go in with souleater, they reach the hate cap as well fairly quickly. Obviously they will take about half the hits and some tp moves, but literally every action the rdm takes will take hate back, until the drk swings again. The rdm tank and the drk DD ping-pong hate like any tanking duo. This leads me to believe that nothing breaks the hate cap: souleater, blood weapon, 10k dmg, stun, voke, nothing. At the hate cap, bind retakes hate from a 2000dmg 8hit proc.

This also indicates that while total enmity may be the sum of volatile and constant hate, constant does not have a lower cap than the total. That is, you definately don't need any volitile hate to reach the hate cap.

Lastly, rdm/nin on byakko? Was that done with max -dmg gear? With some co-tanks? I couldn't imagine a rdm staying alive against him solo, although I would like to try (Byakko low-man?). Tigers hurt
--
Emufarmer - Fairy - vVLostParadiseVv

[Holsety]

Yo, cleaning up a few RDM/NIN issues brought up here.

Firstly yes, RDM/NIN can ping-pong with other tanks. NINs, PLDs, DRKs, anything.

Secondly, it doesn't take nearly as much time as 10min to build enmity on rdm. It is true that a pld could build hate a bit faster, especially /war, but honestly after 1min of debuff spam at most a good rdm geared with nsome enmity+ is on par with any tank (especially if they can sneak a cure4 or two in). Unless you start a fight with SA Gekko there shouldnt be any reason to hold damage any longer with rdm tanks than another tank.

This is quite true, the problem is that the 10-min misconception has been created by a certain JP LS on our server which lets their RDM/NIN tanks build up hate for 10 mins (I've seen them do that even with NIN and PLD tanks) before they start damaging it. Fact is that it doesn't take every long for a RDM/NIN to reach the hate cap.

[Holsety]

Yo, cleaning up a few RDM/NIN issues brought up here.

Firstly yes, RDM/NIN can ping-pong with other tanks. NINs, PLDs, DRKs, anything.

Secondly, it doesn't take nearly as much time as 10min to build enmity on rdm. It is true that a pld could build hate a bit faster, especially /war, but honestly after 1min of debuff spam at most a good rdm geared with nsome enmity+ is on par with any tank (especially if they can sneak a cure4 or two in). Unless you start a fight with SA Gekko there shouldnt be any reason to hold damage any longer with rdm tanks than another tank.

This is quite true, the problem is that the 10-min misconception has been created by a certain JP LS on our server which lets their RDM/NIN tanks build up hate for 10 mins (I've seen them do that even with NIN and PLD tanks) before they start damaging anything. Why they do this I don't know considering it takes a good RDM/NIN one minute at most to have a large amount of hate.

[Ashira]

Blah blah blah a lot of arguing with Tonnberry

Yes, NIN/DRKs should wear Haste gear, and pieces with 5% Haste aren't entirely situational, as they will be *necessary* to hit your equipped Haste cap.

It's like trying to get the most efficient equipment (i.e., the fewest extra pieces) for maxed Stoneskin on like, BLM and saying "is there a way i can do this and leave my Errant Hpl. in my safe," and the answer is no.

Yes, there are safeguard pieces, I carry my Arhat Jinpachi thing and equip if I end up in a bad situation with no recasts, but the point is, hopefully with that Turban and other haste gear and Marches and Haste and whatnot on, I will always have a recast up.

ENNYWAY

I don't honestly think I can contribute much to the surmisings of hate deterioration or any such, though; our NIN/DRK tanks (which is all I have experience with and usually what we almost always use with the NAs in our linkshell) wear pretty much all Enmity pieces in all the additional slots we can't suit up with something else. I know a lot of people mimicked one of our NIN's gear from a widely read blog when the NIN/DRK tanking first really started emerging, but the author of the blog never posted the other NIN's gear, which he himself feels is slightly superior with some gear choices (I wouldn't know what they are because I really don't check people or care). Because I don't give that much heed to these little details until it's something I have to do (and they don't rely on my NIN often because, well, it takes me like 45 minutes to change jobs), my input is going to be limited.

What I do know is the few situations in which I dual tanked with another NIN/DRK and we were in ping pong mode, I was playing with gear off and on quite a bit, trying to find a setup I felt most comfortable with in general. I never had any problem continuing to get hate back, and for the most part the only reason mobs would pay more attn to the other is because I was obviously distracted and not keeping up casting (or in the case of one Tiamat, not getting Refresh for ten minutes after I arrived ._.).

But hate decay seems like it'd be difficult to test. Best I can think of is to test in some manner, reach a hate cap, then have the tanks do nothing and at different time intervals on each mobhave BLMs nuke and see if they pull hate doing like damage.

But even that is iffy because the hate lost with each shadow blinked away may not be equivalent to the hate gain when one recasts Utsusemi, not to mention all the stupid factors with nuking. Suppose could also use a RDM instead of a BLM, see at different time intervals as the tank has stopped actively pursuing hate, how many Bind/Sleep/Dispels or whatever it takes to make the mob look.

I am just not sure why this is such an argument, though. Who cares; there are good tanks, there are bad tanks. Some tanks could know these formulas up and down and still suck. Some can't focus on one thing long enough to figure out 2+2 and will still be impossible to rip hate off of. Find what's comfortable for you, find what works for your shell; there are times when yes, the tank needs to do more, but there are times too when support needs to kick it up a notch and do more as well. /shrug

[Quizno]

Sometimes knowledge is its own reward.

[Jotaru]

While we are on a topic that in general makes some people question things they have always thought to be true, please no 'lolback2zham' or anything, but...

If enmity works as postulated in these pages, and I imagine we have it nailed down pretty good now... and abilities like Provoke give a large spike of hate that more or less deteriorates completely before the 30 second cooldown has come back up again... Assuming these things are true, wouldn't it be better to wait to Provoke until someone lands a big nuke (Or starts casting one), begins a big heal, or is about to use a large ability JA (like Last Resort, Souleater, etc)? I've played around with it a bit lately, both on NIN tanking and on DRK messing around trying to pull aggro (and not trying to, in other situations) and its pretty obviously a little easier to not pull aggro if you use Souleater right after a tank uses Provoke rather than if you wait til its almost up again.

Sure, if you pull aggro with a JA or cure or whatnot a good tank can pull it back off of you with his next voke, assuming he isn't horrible, but in theory if hate on abilities deteriorates as we are saying it does, you could potentially time all of your provokes to land right before any other big aggro ability, and always stay ahead of the person using Souleater, Last Resort, etc. so rather than them pulling aggro and you pulling it back, they never get it at all. Just a thought~

[Ferien]

Theoretically, yes. The problem with that, though, is that when you're dealing with an alliance full of people, what are you going to do when everyone is doing things at different times? The reason certain tanks work so well is that they can build their Cumulative hate while using Volatile hate to both keep the mob locked during the buildup phase and pass it back and forth with the other tank at the capped phase.

Unless you're talking about shit like xp, in which case none of that matters because if hate is a big enough issue where someone's going to die, you're doing it wrong.

[Jotaru]

nod, good point.

On the other topic, I tried NIN/DRK for the first time Monday on Gods (had nin at 75 a while, DRK sub was a PITA though) and I must say, I was floored by it. Can't even contemplate RDM/NIN, heh. Amazing how this game evolves.